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The Frederick St protest and reaction

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    #272
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    And you don't like the idea that just because you keep saying "questionable duties" , it doesn't make it true.
    The doubts I have about Gardai assisting in private evictions aren't really material; whether they're simply on the beat or assisting in evictions, Gardai should not be wearing balaclavas.

    Nobody who exercises the kinds of privileges enjoyed by Gardai should operate with that degree of enhanced anonymity, unless the work somehow relates to anti-terror operations where there may be a legitimate threat to the life of a police officer.


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    #273
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    zapitastas wrote: »
    If they wanted to avoid accusations of collusion with loyalists they should not have empoyed one to front the organisation.

    You quote the whole post and you're only going to reply to 3 words of it?


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    #274
    but1er
    Registered Users Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭but1er


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Niall Boylan on fire again.

    Wouldn't never belive him any of his call


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    #275
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Was this abandoned building a 'home'? I think you will find that the protestors undertook this action precisely because this abandoned property isn't a home.

    Peaceful occupation of abandoned property is a feature of political protest and housing direct action across Europe.

    It is indeed,and usually results in a somewhat more robust response than we provide....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1c_58e6jk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUHzFDyfrAg


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #276
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    You quote the whole post and you're only going to reply to 3 words of it?

    Yes


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    #277
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    The doubts I have about Gardai assisting in private evictions aren't really material; whether they're simply on the beat or assisting in evictions, Gardai should not be wearing balaclavas.

    Nobody who exercises the kinds of privileges enjoyed by Gardai should operate with that degree of enhanced anonymity, unless the work somehow relates to anti-terror operations where there may be a legitimate threat to the life of a police officer.

    And I disagree with that. End of the day. They can and do wear them, so you'll just have to deal with that and get on with your life (handy life tip: don't act the **** and you'll most likely never encounter gardai in balaclavas)


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    #278
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Niall Boylan on fire again.

    Any link,or summary ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #279
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0c609d7abff72c1c80256d2b0045bb64/568aa06b506c092780257c900046a5b4?OpenDocument

    They would'nt have to be.

    The Court Order (or notification) would have to be served by a duly notarised offical,ie: a summons server (or person authorised by them).

    The serving of an order is different from the enforcement of an order.

    I'm not disputing that the order was served properly. I'm questioning whether it was enforced properly. We both seem to agree that the enforcement is a matter for someone with official standing, be they Garda, bailiff, sheriff, etc. There's no indication that the men who enforced the order meet that criteria, and we may never know because they have gone to extreme lengths to conceal their identities.
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The salient point here,is that the considerable additional expense now incurred in regaining possession of this (or any) property,will eventually be factored into the selling or redevelopment price,and will further increase the eventual purchase price on the open market.

    The only losers here,will be those who might be seeking to purchase such premises for either their own use,or for social housing initiatives.

    Well done all :rolleyes:

    If you think the costs of this event are what will make the house unaffordable to potential buyers, then have I got news for you about property prices in Dublin... :eek::eek:


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    #280
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    zapitastas wrote: »
    Yes

    Convenient.......


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    #281
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    zapitastas wrote: »
    If they wanted to avoid accusations of collusion with loyalists they should not have empoyed one to front the organisation.
    I did think it was the Shinnerbots making the most noise about this alright, I just wasn't sure until you posted this.

    It's ironic considering your own love affair with balaclavas.


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    #282
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    seamus wrote: »
    Well, you know, all you have to do is look. Accusations of; being black-and-tans, collusion with loyalists, failing in their public duties, assault, racism, and all manner of other treasonous acts which nobody engaged in last night, but nevertheless the homelessness industry have been whipping up their mob about today.

    When it became known that the eviction was about to happen, the mob was whipped up and encouraged to attend to Frederick street to try and resist the eviction. Even though the occupants left peacefully and without incident, the mob outside decided to attack the Gardai and five of them got arrested.
    You're just ignoring the question, though.

    There was a previous, related eviction on Summerhill Parade, where Gardai were not wearing balaclavas.

    You seemed to make a fairly confident statement that gardai assisting in an eviction would have their faces plastered all over social media, with calls for them to be publicly named. On what basis are you claiming this, has it ever happened before in an eviction, to anyone's knowledge?


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    #283
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Convenient.......

    Yes


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    #284
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    You say 'specific duty' as though it has some specific legal or technical meaning. It doesn't.

    It does. Do you think they approach community policing, traffic duty, public order in the same way, with the same uniform, with the same tactics?
    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    You asked me what the problem with balaclavas are, and i've told you.

    I didn't.

    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    there is actually a problem with police forces undertaking fairly questionable duties, possibly involving force, whilst wearing balaclavas.

    There was nothing questionable about that duty.
    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Now you're doing the equivalent of speaking in a high pitched voice and making faces,

    Attacking me because you can't reason?


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    #285
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Thoughts I get why people are frustrated with the housing situation as there is a housing crisis, in my view the government should do two things 1/ Introduce some form of rent caps to prevent rising rents and 2/ Build more affordable social housing for people.

    I grew up & lived in a council estate before my folks could afford to move to a private estate, at that time there was a scheme where people could purchase a council house through the rent over a period of years which is how they purchased the house off the council, there should be a similar scheme available for low income families .

    Lastly the people who are organising a protest in Dublin later this evening should go about things a different way rather then planning to shut down traffic in rush hour which will be counter productive & pi** off the general public.
    "" We'll be taking to the roads, shutting down traffic in rush hour. ""

    https://www.facebook.com/events/341868183235705/


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    #286
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    The doubts I have about Gardai assisting in private evictions aren't really material; whether they're simply on the beat or assisting in evictions, Gardai should not be wearing balaclavas.

    Nobody who exercises the kinds of privileges enjoyed by Gardai should operate with that degree of enhanced anonymity, unless the work somehow relates to anti-terror operations where there may be a legitimate threat to the life of a police officer.

    Well that's your opinion, try to get the law changed.

    My opinion, and evidently the opinion of many others in this thread, is that Gardaí should be able to wear balaclavas in situations like this. Why does your opinion supersede the law and the opinion of others?


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    #287
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    seamus wrote: »
    I did think it was the Shinnerbots making the most noise about this alright, I just wasn't sure until you posted this.

    It's ironic considering your own love affair with balaclavas.

    That is exceptionally lazy.

    However, I was being facetious about Harris being a loyalist. the organisation he had huge influence over was up to their necks in collusion and he has faced repeated claims that he has been involved in the cover up.


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    #288
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    The doubts I have about Gardai assisting in private evictions aren't really material; whether they're simply on the beat or assisting in evictions, Gardai should not be wearing balaclavas.

    Nobody who exercises the kinds of privileges enjoyed by Gardai should operate with that degree of enhanced anonymity, unless the work somehow relates to anti-terror operations where there may be a legitimate threat to the life of a police officer.

    More than once you claim anonymity, this time it's "enhanced anonymity".

    The Gardai on duty were identifiable.


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    #289
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    And strict rules for scumbag landlords

    When landlords break the rules, the Gardaí say it's not their problem: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/family-homeless-over-tardiness-of-rtb-and-garda-failings-1.3610688
    On Thursday 16th she says Ms Kelly called to the house but she did not answer the door, instead calling the gardaí.

    “After 45 minutes the gardaí came but she was already gone. I asked them to contact her. They spoke to her, they told me: ‘There is nothing we can do. She owns the house’.”


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    #290
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Amirani wrote: »
    Why does your opinion supersede the law and the opinion of others?
    No idea what you're on about, frankly. Nobody said their opinion supersedes the law.
    Hurrache wrote: »
    More than once you claim anonymity, this time it's "enhanced anonymity".

    The Gardai on duty were identifiable.
    I've never claimed they were totally anonymous; I referred only to enhanced anonymity, problems with witness observations, and so on.


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    #291
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Niall Boylan on fire again.

    I'm not a fan of him at all, but I think setting him ablaze is going a bit far! :D


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    #292
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    I've never claimed they were totally anonymous; I referred only to enhanced anonymity, problems with witness observations, and so on.

    You did. And your claim is also untrue, they weren't anonymous, effectively, enhanced or otherwise. They were all identifiable.
    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    it's deeply worrying to think they can exercise those privileges in a way that is effectively anonymous, and therefore, pretty much unchecked.


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    #293
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    There was a previous, related eviction on Summerhill Parade, where Gardai were not wearing balaclavas.

    You seemed to make a fairly confident statement that gardai assisting in an eviction would have their faces plastered all over social media, with calls for them to be publicly named. On what basis are you claiming this, has it ever happened before in an eviction, to anyone's knowledge?
    Gardai assisting in this eviction. Like I say, they made exactly the right call in this instance, based not only on the build up to this (where calls went out on social media to resist the eviction), but vindicated by the subsequent howls of anger.

    I never said that Gardai called to maintain order during any given eviction would need to wear balaclavas.

    You said that, I didn't.


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    #294
    RobbieMD
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭RobbieMD


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Not really.

    They're not damned if they continue to take the quite correct approach that disputes over private property constitute a civil matter.

    I'm of the view that the occupiers of the property should have been removed or penalised by the courts, but not by removed the Gardaí, much less Gardaí wearing balaclavas - whatever happened to policing with the consent of the people?

    I for one am not comfortable with a police force operating in that way. Police forces are given tremendous powers, and it's deeply worrying to think they can exercise those privileges in a way that is effectively anonymous, and therefore, pretty much unchecked.

    Say the protestors refused to vacate on foot of the court order, how is the property owner supposed to secure his property? How is he supposed to remove the protestors if they don't "consent"?
    How would the courts penalise the protestors if they refused to leave? Would the judge himself come down and ask? What if they refuse to give their names? Can they be fined? If they refuse to pay the fine do we ask them to consent to going to prison instead?

    Policing with the consent of the people is a lovely idea, but how do you police people who don't consent?

    Using reasonable justifiable necessary force is sometimes required. I'm sure they were asked more than once to leave.


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    #295
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    but1er wrote: »
    Wouldn't never belive him any of his call

    Well there was a councilor from cork on, made a show of himself.

    Are you saying he’s a plant???


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    #296
    dav3
    Registered Users Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    What a strange story. It's seems to have backfired for a lot of people.

    Fine Gael desperate to throw off their 'posh boys' image and being out of their depth, are now viewed as being out of touch with the working class, stumbling from one disaster to another as the housing crisis worsens.

    A new Garda commissioner with a suspect past, trying to act like Dirty Harry in his first few days, decides to bring in the riot squad wearing balaclavas, while the ordinary rank and file walk around unmasked.

    A slum landlord who's hired goons turn up in an untaxed van which probably wouldn't pass the NCT, a van which also has a history of being used as a tactical aid unit in the greater manchester police.

    A curious case indeed.


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    #297
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hurrache wrote: »
    You did. And your claim is also untrue, they weren't anonymous, effectively, enhanced or otherwise. They were all identifiable.
    As you can see, I am not claiming they were totally anonymous. They were effectively anonymous to anyone who would simply have been observing from the street, for example as a witness, and that's part of where the problem lies.
    RobbieMD wrote: »
    Say the protestors refused to vacate on foot of the court order, how is the property owner supposed to secure his property?
    As with any refusal to comply with a court order, the courts can imprison or fine individuals for contempt, the latter can be attached to earnings from employment or social welfare income.


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    #298
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,522 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    seamus wrote: »
    It'd be easy to make the mistake that because some hired goons are wearing masks that they're a well organised force. Probably just Joe and Mick and a few mates with a battered aul van who've done some heavy lifting in the past. Not savvy paramilitaries.

    If they really were savvy paramilitaries, those nice middle class protesting students would be visited in the middle of the night and given a message they would never forget.

    They'd leave in haste and there wouldnt be a word outta them now. :pac:


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    #299
    For Forks Sake
    Registered Users Posts: 11,475 ✭✭✭✭For Forks Sake


    seamus wrote: »
    Considering the vitriol pouring out online at the moment, I would say the Garda were bang on in this instance to exercise their right to cover their faces.

    You'd have all manner of lunatic plastering their faces all over the place asking people to identify them and find out where they live.

    The "protestors" through their disgusting behaviour over the last 18 hours have proven that the Garda response was measured perfectly against the conditions.

    Read through the comments on this and you see exactly why the Gardai covered their faces .

    Sample
    The water meter protests got the people behind it en masse.
    If they could id the Gardai here and picket their homes it would put the ****s up them. Less likely to take enjoyment at their thug protection job then


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    #300
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    For Forks Sake wrote: »
    Read through the comments on this and you see exactly why the Gardai covered their faces .

    Sample

    But hang on, people are claiming that the type of stuff you're posting doesn't happen?!


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    #301
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    No sign of Murphy or Barrett getting a slap. Ah dear, maybe next time.


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