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The Frederick St protest and reaction

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    #92
    Ha Long Bay
    Registered Users Posts: 14,468 ✭✭✭✭Ha Long Bay


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Individuals and/or companies sitting on vacant land banks and/or with vacant properties in under pressure urban areas need to be 'encouraged' by use of our taxation system to do the right thing for the greater good.

    I can't disagree with that but things unfortunately take time. For example I buy a piece of property\land from someone who has owned it for a number of years I cant just build an apartment block tomorrow. I need to raise capital, apply for planning etc. We are coming out of recession it will take time.


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    #93
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,993 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Bertser wrote: »
    The law matters when it's protesters occupying a vacant property but not when it's heavies arriving in a car with no reg, tax or insurance. Doing the latter gets you assistance from the guards of all people

    Dm1ag42X0AA3A73.jpg

    And parked on a double yellow too.


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    #94
    Huntline
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Huntline


    Bertser wrote: »
    The law matters when it's protesters occupying a vacant property but not when it's heavies arriving in a car with no reg, tax or insurance. Doing the latter gets you assistance from the guards of all people

    Dm1ag42X0AA3A73.jpg

    UK reg vehicles don't display tax or insurance on their windscreens as is the law in their country.


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    #95
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    guylikeme wrote: »
    I guess that the same was thought about the tank man in China. Rosa Parks on that bus. Numerous other examples.

    Raising awareness of failed policies does achieve these things bit by bit.

    #notions much?


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    #96
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    Bethany Long Pensioner wrote: »

    they'd make money from letting it.

    That's not always the case. The tax system in Ireland for landlords limits any profit that can be made and the cost of getting a bad tenant can erode years of profit very quickly especially if a tenant decides they don't want to leave. What other country in the world gives a tenant the right to stay in a rental property for 6 years after only 6 months living there(part IV tenancy)?
    There's good reason why so many landlords are selling up or choosing to leave properties vacant.


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    #97
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    aido79 wrote: »
    That's not always the case. The tax system in Ireland for landlords limits any profit that can be made and the cost of getting a bad tenant can erode years of profit very quickly especially if a tenant decides they don't want to leave. What other country in the world gives a tenant the right to stay in a rental property for 6 years after only 6 months living there(part IV tenancy)?
    There's good reason why so many landlords are selling up or choosing to leave properties vacant.
    I got a 5 year contract when I first moved in, in Austria, I think Germany is similar


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    #98
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,993 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    riffmongous wrote: »
    I got a 5 year contract when I first moved in, in Austria, I think Germany is similar

    But I'm sure those countries have strict rules if you are a scumbag and end up being a terrible tenant.

    Not so in Ireland afaik.


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    #99
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    riffmongous wrote: »
    I got a 5 year contract when I first moved in, in Austria, I think Germany is similar

    There's a big difference between getting a 5 year contract and giving a tenant a 1 year lease which allows them to stay for 6 years once they have been there longer than 6 months.


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    #100
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    NIMAN wrote: »
    But I'm sure those countries have strict rules if you are a scumbag and end up being a terrible tenant.

    Not so in Ireland afaik.
    Yeah that seems to be the case, but they also try do more to keep the rents down too, so there's less short term profit to be had too (usually), seems to work better imo than everyone just trying to screw each other


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    #101
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    aido79 wrote: »
    There's a big difference between getting a 5 year contract and giving a tenant a 1 year lease which allows them to stay for 6 years once they have been there longer than 6 months.
    I didn't ask for a 5 year, it was the standard length offered, so not far off a part 4.

    It a chicken and egg but if landlords gave longer contracts tenants wouldn't need such a strong Part 4


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    #102
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,993 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Yeah that seems to be the case, but they also try do more to keep the rents down too, so there's less short term profit to be had too (usually), seems to work better imo than everyone just trying to screw each other

    I have always wondered though why we cannot simply state that we are going to adopt the German or the Austrian system starting on January 1st 2019 or 2020, and then just do it.

    Why can we not? Would laws need changed?

    Many will say vested interests - a lot of people in power in Ireland are landlords apparently and the current system suits them. Maybe.


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    #103
    rom
    Registered Users Posts: 5,135 ✭✭✭rom


    When protesters do the following no mater what they are trying to do the lose all credibility:
    - Get involved in name calling especially with Garda
    - Focus on petty things rather than the message at hand. Does the van have tax.
    - Are not informed and state things like housing is a human right. Shelter is which is something different.
    - Break the laws that are in place in 99% of world. Other movement that broke laws were laws that were unique to that place and were relevant to the movement. It put a spotlight on it then.
    - Have a spokesperson who is not associated with any groups that have been associated with violence or crime either now or in the past.
    - Have protests that within the law. Have a sit in at a Garda station. This is were homeless are sent if there is no where to go so it would be symbolic. Margret Cash (not going to open that can of worms again) achieved more though it was for herself than this has. Fill the Garda station with normal people and invite the media to come. Not breaking any laws.
    - Come with some sort of solution rather than stupid chants Shame shame shame that you watch game of thrones. Something like double housing tax for those who have a vacant property in the pressure zone and the money extra raised to be ring fenced for housing charities. Something like that. Just stating the problem again and again does nothing. All causes that were successful have a clear message on what they want and its something that is achievable. Maybe its to remove the ban on only 5 stories in Dublin to build etc etc. But something like houses for all and no logical steps on how that can be achieved is no good.
    - Ireland is not the first country to have a housing crisis and not the last. Small changes are being made and it will take time but come with well researched ideas and a strong clear message and stop the childish behaviour and people may listen.
    - People can make a difference. A woman from Cork walked from Cork to Dublin to get medical cannabis under licence. She won. She didn't break any laws. She had a clear and convincing argument on how Ireland was different from X countries and how changing the law could benefit people. This group are essentially saying "My son is sick" again and again.


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    #104
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,522 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    If I could add to your list - Have a recognisable spokesperson without a stupid Leo mask.


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    #105
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    riffmongous wrote: »
    I didn't ask for a 5 year, it was the standard length offered, so not far off a part 4.

    It a chicken and egg but if landlords gave longer contracts tenants wouldn't need such a strong Part 4

    I'm not sure you're really getting it. It isn't possible to give a 1 year lease to a difficult tenant in Ireland. If a tenant decides they don't want to leave after the first 6 months it's very difficult to get them out. Paying rent is also seen as optional for some tenants. Being a landlord in Ireland has alot of risks compared to other businesses.
    I think landlords should have more control over how long tenants stay in their property. Most landlords would gladly give a 5 year lease to a good tenant.


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    #106
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    riffmongous wrote: »
    I didn't ask for a 5 year, it was the standard length offered, so not far off a part 4.

    It a chicken and egg but if landlords gave longer contracts tenants wouldn't need such a strong Part 4
    AFAIK, Part 4 is currently a 6 year lease.

    Contracts mean nothing should the tenant stop paying the rent, as the LL has to pay money to go through the PTRB, pay money to the sheriff to evict them, and then pay more money to fix the place if it's damaged. Does the LL ever get the money owed back if damage was done to the property?


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    #107
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    When the gardai do the usual soft approach to policing, they are criticised.
    When the gardai do this type of policing, effectively removing those muppets from a house that doesn't belong to them, and protecting the identities of the people involved, masking faces and the vehicle used, they are criticised.

    I assume the gardai and the owner of the property had already tried the "soft" approach and it clearly didn't work so, in order for the property owner to regain control of their property, the gardai took a tougher approach.

    People often say our gardai are a laughing stock. This approach sends a very clear message to any other muppets who think it is their right to enter and squat in property that doesn't belong to them.


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    #108
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    Is it legal to drive a van with a front registration plate missing, a UK rear one, and refuse to identify oneself?

    Not condoning the actions of the protesters, but if the law of the state is being enforced, it should be enforced equally.

    Were the lads in an unmarked van working for anyone in particular?

    There is zero legislation that states you have to identify yourself to a reporter or a rabble. I’m sure they were introduced to the Gardaí before they went to the house, otherwise the Gardaí would be evicting one rabble and letting another rabble in, which would be pointless.


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    #109
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    And by occupying someone’s property illegal is the right way to go about it?

    All of the acts of civil disobedience cited by the poster were illegal at the time, and they did achieve something.


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    #110
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Bethany Long Pensioner wrote: »
    Comparison with Rosa Parks and the young man who risked his life in Tiananmen Square...

    There is definitely an accommodation crisis, but how in the hell is illegally occupying a private dwelling meant to help effect change at state level? :confused:

    And the guards are literally doing their job.

    The state should be forcing people to sh!t or get off the pot when it comes to hoarding empty housing in rent pressure zones. That's exactly what these protests are trying to advocate for by highlighting just how much housing in the city is wasted by hoarders.


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    #111
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    The state should be forcing people to sh!t or get off the pot when it comes to hoarding empty housing in rent pressure zones. That's exactly what these protests are trying to advocate for by highlighting just how much housing in the city is wasted by hoarders.

    Higher property taxes needed, particularly on unused property. It stops landlords sitting on property trying to accumulate wealth through price increases.

    Unfortunately many of the vocal people protesting here were/are anti property taxes...


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    #112
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Amirani wrote: »
    Higher property taxes needed, particularly on unused property. It stops landlords sitting on property trying to accumulate wealth through price increases.

    Unfortunately many of the vocal people protesting here were/are anti property taxes...

    IMO we need to go further than that, and back to a 1930s Simms-esque project of compulsory purchase of these properties, demolition, and replacement with higher-density mixed-tenure developments. If the councils controlled large amounts of rental properties which were available not just to desperate folks but to average people who simply couldn't afford the ridiculous rents on the market at the moment, and which were not rented at market rates but at a rate which people agreed was actually a reasonable proportion of income, it would go a long way towards forcing some amount of deflation and making peoples' lives at least marginally easier.


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    #113
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Amirani wrote: »
    Higher property taxes needed, particularly on unused property. It stops landlords sitting on property trying to accumulate wealth through price increases.

    Unfortunately many of the vocal people protesting here were/are anti property taxes...

    Exactly, try to raise taxes and the exact same rent-a-mob group will be out protesting that.


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    #114
    Mongfinder General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,993 ✭✭✭Mongfinder General


    Amirani wrote: »
    Higher property taxes needed, particularly on unused property. It stops landlords sitting on property trying to accumulate wealth through price increases.

    Unfortunately many of the vocal people protesting here were/are anti property taxes...

    I’d wager that most of the people commenting here are paying 50+% tax on their income above €34000. That’s enough tax in my book.
    Yesterday’s events are not pretty but Garda indolence has emboldened the growing want everything/pay for nothing brigade.

    This is a good start from the Garda Commissioner although as I’ve said previously, laying into a few crusties is down the list of priorities. There are much bigger problems out there right now. Hopefully he lashes into them over the next few months


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    #115
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Exactly, try to raise taxes and the exact same rent-a-mob group will be out protesting that.

    Because higher property taxes inevitably translate to higher rents. That's sort of a no-brainer. The truth is that disused (or illegally used as in overcrowded dorm-style rental) low-density housing in the city centre needs to be demolished and replaced with apartments, just like the tenements were in the 20th century - and, rents need to be to some extent based on what is considered affordable and not just what the maximum we can get away with charging might be.


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    #116
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Because higher property taxes inevitably translate to higher rents. That's sort of a no-brainer. The truth is that disused (or illegally used as in overcrowded dorm-style rental) low-density housing in the city centre needs to be demolished and replaced with apartments, just like the tenements were in the 20th century - and, rents need to be to some extent based on what is considered affordable and not just what the maximum we can get away with charging might be.

    And where does the money come from to do this?? Our magic money tree??


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    #117
    _Puma_
    Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭_Puma_


    According to a picture on twitter the clapped out van had a northern reg before Gardai told them to take them off. New RUC commissioner must have got some of his loyalist mates down.

    The extendable batons some of the Gardai are holding aren't liscenced for the Gardai either.


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    #118
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Mongfinder General wrote: »
    Yesterday’s events are not pretty but Garda indolence has emboldened the growing want everything/pay for nothing brigade.

    There's a difference between "pay for nothing" and "pay what's reasonable". Do you know much about the history of Irish independence? You realise that a similar situation with extortionate rents was one of the main triggers for the 20th century independence movement, right? "Fair Rent" was one of the main three demands of the Land League which ultimately evolved into the Republican movement.

    This is not a new phenomenon. The mainstream notion that land is an entirely private commodity and not to some extent a national resource is the new phenomenon, it's only been mainstream since the 1980s FFS.


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    #119
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    And where does the money come from to do this?? Our magic money tree??

    We already have it. I've explained this numerous times in the other threads on this protest. How do you think we afforded it in the feckin' 1930s when Ireland was broke as f*ck?


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    #120
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    We already have it. I've explained this numerous times in the other threads on this protest. How do you think we afforded it in the feckin' 1930s when Ireland was broke as f*ck?

    Ah, we have it. Gadzooks, and here was me thinking the country is being run at a deficit and still borrowing to keep afloat


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    #121
    DChancer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭DChancer


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Ah, we have it. Gadzooks, and here was me thinking the country is being run at a deficit and still borrowing to keep afloat

    Third highest National debt by capita in the developed world and still borrowing!
    But no worries, we need to look after the something for nothing generation!


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