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So who's going to see the Pope?

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Comments

  • #3302
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,299 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    lawred2 wrote: »
    or you know - the citizen could take some responsibility and educate themselves




    I do agree but obviously that hasn't happened to date. We need accurate census results to plan for Ireland's future. We need the Catholic minority to be shown as a minority not as a fake majority. If it means educating people on something they should already know then so be it. We cant ever have a weekend like this again. Shutting dawn the Capital city for two days for so few is a joke


  • #3303
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,753 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    I've already heard and seen a couple of people blaming the low turnout on the tickets that where snapped up by people protesting the visit who had no intention of going. I reckon we're going to see more of that over the next couple of weeks as well. I really wish people hadn't done the ticket thing because then there would have been no excuses they could have used for the poor turnout.

    agreed

    the best protest would have been simply ignoring the whole thing


  • #3304
    kenmc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,283 ✭✭✭kenmc


    ELM327 wrote: »
    €266.67 for every attendee.
    Including the volunteers, choir, army, gardai etc, not to mention tourists. The cost per citizen would be even higher.


  • #3305
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    Not just because they couldn't either. I was speaking to my dad on the phone yesterday, he's in his 70s and would be fairly religious - mass every Sunday and all. Said he had absolutely no interest in going, that he likes the local priest but has no respect at all for the church hierarchy. I'd imagine there are plenty of his generation with a similar mindset.
    Which again, is a massive swing from 40 years ago. Disagreeing with "the hierarchy" just wasn't a thought. The Pope himself was basically God incarnate.

    Back then, it didn't matter (for the faithful) what the Pope said or did. He was the Pope, and everything he said and did was "good" by default. The Pope *is* the church, and a slight on him is a slight against the church.

    Now people are arguing their adherence to the church on the basis that the priests are good people, the Vatican is just a corrupt cesspit. Such a viewpoint would have been grounds for excommunication before the 1970s. Martin Luther called it 500 years ago and was nearly executed for it.

    It's quite amazing the massive shift in such a short timeframe.


  • #3306
    AlanG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭AlanG


    RoryMac wrote: »
    According to my In Laws there were hundreds tickets in Phibsboro church left for people to take if they wanted them all through the week. That's a stones throw from Phoenix Park and there was just no interest.

    There was absolutely no shortage of tickets just a shortage of people who wanted them

    The incompetence of the NTA kept a lot of people away - of 11 people who asked me to get them tickets online only 1 went once their their transport routes came through - People living in belville, 10 meters from Ashtown gate were been told to walk through the dunard gate - an 5km detour. Those who wanted to cycle were told to park their bikes in Blanchardstown village - 5.5 KM from the site and further out than the ridiculous bus hubs. Meanwhile hundreds of acres that were used for Ed Sheerhan and could have been utilised as a bike / coach park in the Park itself were simply closed off. The whole orgaisation of the mass was a shambles and reflects very poorly on whoever was in charge.


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  • #3307
    RoryMac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭RoryMac


    seamus wrote: »
    Which again, is a massive swing from 40 years ago. Disagreeing with "the hierarchy" just wasn't a thought. The Pope himself was basically God incarnate.

    Back then, it didn't matter (for the faithful) what the Pope said or did. He was the Pope, and everything he said and did was "good" by default. The Pope *is* the church, and a slight on him is a slight against the church.

    Now people are arguing their adherence to the church on the basis that the priests are good people, the Vatican is just a corrupt cesspit. Such a viewpoint would have been grounds for excommunication before the 1970s. Martin Luther called it 500 years ago and was nearly executed for it.

    It's quite amazing the massive shift in such a short timeframe.

    It's not that long ago you would hear how the Pope was infallible, not so much of that now. Is it even a thing anymore?


  • #3308
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,753 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    RoryMac wrote: »
    It's not that long ago you would hear how the Pope was infallible, not so much of that now. Is it even a thing anymore?

    God's voice on earth

    Incredible that people so completely bought in to this mindless toss..


  • #3309
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,928 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    RoryMac wrote: »
    It's not that long ago you would hear how the Pope was infallible, not so much of that now. Is it even a thing anymore?


    He is as infallible as he ever was on matters of faith and doctrine.


  • #3310
    RoryMac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭RoryMac


    AlanG wrote: »
    The incompetence of the NTA kept a lot of people away - of 11 people who asked me to get them tickets online only 1 went once their their transport routes came through - People living in belville, 10 meters from Ashtown gate were been told to walk through the dunard gate - an 5km detour. Those who wanted to cycle were told to park their bikes in Blanchardstown village - 5.5 KM from the site and further out than the ridiculous bus hubs. Meanwhile hundreds of acres that were used for Ed Sheerhan and could have been utilised as a bike / coach park in the Park itself were simply closed off. The whole orgaisation of the mass was a shambles and reflects very poorly on whoever was in charge.

    With so many tickets available it would have been easy to get a ticket to access the closest entrance to the park.

    Yes transport played a part in the low numbers but the leading factor seemed to be a lack of interest.


  • #3311
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    RoryMac wrote: »
    It's not that long ago you would hear how the Pope was infallible, not so much of that now. Is it even a thing anymore?

    Only in very limited, defined circumstances.


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  • #3312
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    RoryMac wrote: »

    Yes transport played a part in the low numbers but the leading factor seemed to be a lack of interest.

    If it were a free Daniel O'Donnell concert it wouldn't have stopped them.


  • #3313
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,753 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    AlanG wrote: »
    The incompetence of the NTA kept a lot of people away - of 11 people who asked me to get them tickets online only 1 went once their their transport routes came through - People living in belville, 10 meters from Ashtown gate were been told to walk through the dunard gate - an 5km detour. Those who wanted to cycle were told to park their bikes in Blanchardstown village - 5.5 KM from the site and further out than the ridiculous bus hubs. Meanwhile hundreds of acres that were used for Ed Sheerhan and could have been utilised as a bike / coach park in the Park itself were simply closed off. The whole orgaisation of the mass was a shambles and reflects very poorly on whoever was in charge.

    I hear you.

    Conspiracy?


  • #3314
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,670 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    seamus wrote: »
    Which again, is a massive swing from 40 years ago. Disagreeing with "the hierarchy" just wasn't a thought. The Pope himself was basically God incarnate.

    Back then, it didn't matter (for the faithful) what the Pope said or did. He was the Pope, and everything he said and did was "good" by default. The Pope *is* the church, and a slight on him is a slight against the church.

    Now people are arguing their adherence to the church on the basis that the priests are good people, the Vatican is just a corrupt cesspit. Such a viewpoint would have been grounds for excommunication before the 1970s. Martin Luther called it 500 years ago and was nearly executed for it.

    It's quite amazing the massive shift in such a short timeframe.


    There has been a lot of mystique and bull**** that has grown up about the reality of the 1979 visit.

    I was at an age where the 'Go see the pope or else' command still had an effect.
    I went to Galway, half interested. All around me were similar aged people, sleeping through the mass, eating, giddy with the novelty and celebrity of it all. Engaging in spirituality or religion? Of the thousands in the stand with me...very very few.

    It was an adventure for most, a pretend rock concert for rural kids who could only dream of such things.

    Of course the narrative became 'the racecourse was ram packed with reverent teenagers, the church is healthy'. The reality was the rot had set in and set in well at that stage. That was the generation that has voted with it's feet. :)


  • #3315
    xi5yvm0owc1s2b
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭xi5yvm0owc1s2b


    seamus wrote: »
    But what this 130,000 figure has proven is just how bad a state the church is in.

    Your over-reliance on one single metric (the number of people who attended mass by the pope on one rainy Sunday in Dublin) to "prove" something about the state of the church in Ireland in reality only illustrates the shoddy nature of this reasoning. A less thesis-driven observer might look at numerous other metrics, such as the percentage of the Irish population identifying as Catholic (78 percent in Census 2016, or 3,729,100 people -- more than the entire population of Ireland in 1979) or the percentage of Catholics attending weekly mass (around 35 percent, very high by European standards). But I guess it's easier to look at one metric that "proves" what you want to see.
    Older people didn't make the trip because they couldn't.

    I assume many older people understandably didn't make the trip because of the miserable weather. It's probable that some others didn't make the trip because they had already had the experience of attending mass by a pope in 1979 and didn't feel the need to go again.
    In 20 years time the older faithful will be gone, and there's nobody left to take their place. 130,000 people, and maybe some of their children, will carry the can.

    If you genuinely believe that there are only 130,000 observant Catholics in Ireland to "carry the can" in 20 years' time, or that there will be no Catholics left in Ireland in 20 years, you really need to think again.


  • #3316
    Candyshell
    Site Banned Posts: 55 ✭✭Candyshell


    The census should have a question asking if you believe in a God or Gods. It would highlight what a farce of a situation we have where people identify as catholic without actually believing in God.


  • #3317
    mloc123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    AlanG wrote: »
    The incompetence of the NTA kept a lot of people away - of 11 people who asked me to get them tickets online only 1 went once their their transport routes came through - People living in belville, 10 meters from Ashtown gate were been told to walk through the dunard gate - an 5km detour. Those who wanted to cycle were told to park their bikes in Blanchardstown village - 5.5 KM from the site and further out than the ridiculous bus hubs. Meanwhile hundreds of acres that were used for Ed Sheerhan and could have been utilised as a bike / coach park in the Park itself were simply closed off. The whole orgaisation of the mass was a shambles and reflects very poorly on whoever was in charge.

    Sure, park a couple of hundred buses on the wet grass and see how that works out...

    Don't worry about all the other people that us the park for the rest of the year, once the soft pilgrims don't have to walk a few kilometers.


  • #3318
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,753 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Camila Famous Granule wrote: »
    Your over-reliance on one single metric (the number of people who attended mass by the pope on one rainy Sunday in Dublin) to "prove" something about the state of the church in Ireland in reality only illustrates the shoddy nature of this reasoning. A less thesis-driven observer might look at numerous other metrics, such as the percentage of the Irish population identifying as Catholic (78 percent in Census 2016, or 3,729,100 people -- more than the entire population of Ireland in 1979) or the percentage of Catholics attending weekly mass (around 35 percent, very high by European standards). But I guess it's easier to look at one metric that "proves" what you want to see.

    :rolleyes:
    attending weekly mass (around 35 percent, very high by European standards)

    how was that measured? and when? and by whom?

    because it's not really credible


  • #3319
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Lads I went online looking for 3 tickets midday yesterday because I wanted to use the free travel aspect to get to the Garden of Remembrance protest. I didn't get them earlier because I genuinely didn't want to risk blocking someone who really wanted to see the pope from doing so.

    I had them in under 15 minutes ; so less than three hours before the papal mass there were tickets to be had.

    Blaming people protest-booking tickets for the very poor attendance is just another excuse.


  • #3320
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    RoryMac wrote: »
    Sycamore Tree wrote: »
    I find it very very odd that the pope wasn't aware of Magdelene laundries or Industrial schools. Who is advising him?

    This papal visit was a disaster for Rome. I hope more cultural Catholics find the courage to tick the correct box on the census form so we can move on as a country.

    It's a lie, he has met with Philomena Lee and the Archbishop has talked about his shock when being told about the Mother & baby homes previously.

    Not sure why he is trying to deny knowledge now when it's on record he knew

    Why would he lie so? He must have known. Can an infallible person lie?

    The whole thing is a charade really. People will look back in 40 years and think how weird the whole debate was.


  • #3321
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    I am absolutely certain that the kids growing up today will completely eliminate the influence of the Rome organisation in Irish society. They might have been forced by cultural Catholic parents to do the sacraments but they wont have the guilt/baggage and will stop all the nonsense.


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  • #3322
    RoryMac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭RoryMac


    Sycamore Tree wrote: »
    Why would he lie so? He must have known. Can an infallible person lie?

    The whole thing is a charade really. People will look back in 40 years and think how weird the whole debate was.

    Not sure why he would lie about it but maybe with so many of these things crossing his desk he's finding it hard to remember which is which. The infallible thing was cleared up by others, it's only in certain aspects of the church teaching that applies.


  • #3323
    RoryMac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭RoryMac


    lawred2 wrote: »
    :rolleyes:



    how was that measured? and when? and by whom?

    because it's not really credible

    Could only have been measured on Christmas Day to produce that figure


  • #3324
    Giraffe Box
    Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Giraffe Box


    Don't know whether to believe them or not, but someone who was at the pope's gig yesterday told me that they had seen Breda O'Brien sitting on David Quinn's shoulders, both of them were wearing 'Up the Vatican' bandanas, pissed-drunk and roaring their heads off singing 'Faith of Our Fathers' at the top of their voices.
    Can anyone confirm?


  • #3325
    valoren
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,602 ✭✭✭valoren


    Think of it from the abusers perspective.

    You have this organisation in the church which provides the perfect front to conceal abuse.
    You have this organisation in the church which has the social proof to conceal abuse.
    You have this organisation populated with people who preach Christian teachings of forgiveness who you can bully, manipulate and threaten should you happen to get called to account or confronted i.e you can get them to turn a blind eye, play the victim, seek forgiveness should you ever get caught.

    You get the automatic respect from society for simply being a priest. You would need to do nothing to earn it.
    That is fertile ground for abuse. If you abused someone, there was the near fact that should they have addressed it and reported it then it would in all likelihood not get believed. You would have a groundswell of support from the laity. To be an abuser and a priest in Catholic Ireland was the epitome of being a wolf in sheep's clothing for decades.

    Abusive individuals joined this organisation to abuse people and children physically, sexually and mentally.
    The RCC must conclude that their organisation and it's status of total infallibility fostered this abuse. That unbeknownst to them individuals manipulated and exploited the Church, it's place in society and it's good intentions to be abusive and that the leaders within it upon discovering this endemic abuse instead of exposing it completely in support of the people who suffered instead sought to cover it up and to conceal it. The status of infallibility now gone, with questions and accountability being demanded, they have fluffed their lines completely.

    They must acknowledge that no apology will ever be sufficient and that the framework for worshiping a God for which they provide is no longer tenable as their credibility following their handling of the abuse scandals is shot completely.


  • #3326
    The Satanist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 693 ✭✭✭The Satanist


    Harold Rhythmic Cornbread wrote: »
    The 300 satanic priests in Penns only preyed upon, and had primary access to that '3.2m' section of their community

    Wrong. They are catholic priests. Don't pawn off the church's disgusting perverted representatives to another grouping; it's disingenuous, insulting and factually incorrect.


  • #3327
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,465 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    This is another one of his many lies imo. The church is/has been sued over this. The victims were hand picked so his advisers knew how each person was effected. His advisers would have given him a quick brief on each one. Philomena Lee met the Pope a few years ago. He was aware of mother & baby homes then.


    I 100 percent agree about the census. The government needs to start an education program explaining how the census effects our lives in years to come

    Maybe he just forgot?

    I mean, he is ****ing ancient!


  • #3328
    123balltv
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭123balltv


    Only way to go now don't bother with christenings, communions and
    confirmations etc


  • #3329
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    valoren wrote: »
    Think of it from the abusers perspective.

    You have this organisation in the church which provides the perfect front to conceal abuse.
    You have this organisation in the church which has the social proof to conceal abuse.
    You have this organisation populated with people who preach Christian teachings of forgiveness who you can bully, manipulate and threaten should you happen to get called to account or confronted i.e you can get them to turn a blind eye, play the victim, seek forgiveness should you ever get caught.

    You get the automatic respect from society for simply being a priest. You would need to do nothing to earn it.
    That is fertile ground for abuse. If you abused someone, there was the near fact that should they have addressed it and reported it then it would in all likelihood not get believed. You would have a groundswell of support from the laity. To be an abuser and a priest in Catholic Ireland was the epitome of being a wolf in sheep's clothing for decades.

    Abusive individuals joined this organisation to abuse people and children physically, sexually and mentally.
    The RCC must conclude that their organisation and it's status of total infallibility fostered this abuse. That unbeknownst to them individuals manipulated and exploited the Church, it's place in society and it's good intentions to be abusive and that the leaders within it upon discovering this endemic abuse instead of exposing it completely in support of the people who suffered instead sought to cover it up and to conceal it. The status of infallibility now gone, with questions and accountability being demanded, they have fluffed their lines completely.

    They must acknowledge that no apology will ever be sufficient and that the framework for worshiping a God for which they provide is no longer tenable as their credibility following their handling of the abuse scandals is shot completely.

    Great post. Even today I doubt a parent in Ireland would ever consider leaving a child alone with a Catholic priest. Nothing has changed in the Roman organisation to make it less likely that it fosters paedophiles.


  • #3330
    Trasna1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    RoryMac wrote: »
    Could only have been measured on Christmas Day to produce that figure

    Churches measure attendance over a four week period usually around the time of the census.

    Method used is someone counting through the entrance or attendees taking numbered tickets as they enter.

    Not fool proof, but neither is the census. That said, there is no value in fudging the numbers as they would be only fooling themselves. Though, sometimes people do favour self deception than face reality.

    Number of donations at the collection (not total collected) can also act as as a proxy for attendance.


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  • #3331
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,249 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    RoryMac wrote: »
    With so many tickets available it would have been easy to get a ticket to access the closest entrance to the park.

    Yes transport played a part in the low numbers but the leading factor seemed to be a lack of interest.
    Its gas. People used to walk up Croagh Patrick in their bare feet in the rain to show their devotion to their faith, and now people won't walk a few km to see the Pope

    The Army was there to help push wheelchairs for people who couldn't walk, but for everyone else give me a break.

    If you go to the zoo in the Phoenix park you'll have walked a longer distance to see some tigers.
    The people who saw the pope in 1979 had to walk just as far and stand for just as long and were inconvenienced just as much but they still turned out to see him.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



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