Cork-Dublin-Belfast - High speed rail

marno21 · 23-08-2018 11:10pm #1

As per the NDP, a feasibility study on such a project vs investment in the existing rail line is to begin before February 2019.

Any word on this since?

Rulmeq · 24-08-2018 7:50am

Would it be totally be beyond the realm of possibility that they would build a new high speed line (capable of 300km/h for example), and leave the existing line to service the towns already on there (with the possibility of re-opening stations like Charleville for example). I know we haven't created a new rail line since the Vitorian era, but seriously a 1 hour trip to Cork would be nice (no idea what it would cost)

Frostybrew · 24-08-2018 8:22am

Rulmeq wrote: »

Would it be totally be beyond the realm of possibility that they would build a new high speed line (capable of 300km/h for example), and leave the existing line to service the towns already on there (with the possibility of re-opening stations like Charleville for example). I know we haven't created a new rail line since the Vitorian era, but seriously a 1 hour trip to Cork would be nice (no idea what it would cost)

While a new 300 km/h line would be brilliant, it is unlikely due to cost. High speed rail is notoriously expensive and it's doubtful we have the market to justify the expenditure.

An upgraded line with a max running speed of 250 km/h and tilting trains might be feasible.

cgcsb · 24-08-2018 9:24am

There wouldn't really be much of a point in high speed rail (300km/h+ in Ireland) because the distance between stops is to small, you'd have to run them as expresses with only one or 2 stops on the main intercity routes, hard to justify doing that parallel to an existing railway that's underfunded.

It's more likely we'll see electrification and upgrade of the main lines, like in Denmark/Sweden and other countries similar to our own, to high speed (200-250km/hr). Such a service could deliver Dublin-Cork in 1hr30 which defeats the motorway by a long shot. Putting in 300km/hr rail might deliver the same journey in about 100 minutes, but you'd be spending tens of billions just to save 20 minutes on the train, which at 250km/hr would already have roads licked on the speed front.

I'd propose building a new high speed line between Drogheda and Heuston via Dublin airport and a new tunnel under the urban bits, then have express trains run Belfast-Drogheda-Dublin Airport- Dublin Heuston - Portarlington- Limerick Junction-Cork in about 4-4.5 hours of a journey at 160km/hr then start gradually upgrading parts of the track, electrifying it, using hybrid diesel Electric trains at first. Then gradually after 10-15 years of scheduled upgrades you have a high speed service completing Belfast-Cork in about 2.5 hours. With stops at Portarlington and Limerick Junction you'd be allowing for the vast majority of Ireland's population to access the high speed line (connecting the only three metropolitan areas and the main airport in double quick time) with only one change or less.

The biggest problems would be the Drogheda-Heuston section, which would require expensive tunneling. The electrification would be expensive but could be done gradually. also the not controlling almost half of the Dublin-Belfast line is another barrier.

This all takes a back seat to commuter journeys within urban areas which are horrendous in Ireland at the minute. Commuter journeys are far more numerous, we do them twice a day, and they've been getting longer and longer. That needs to be sorted first. Hopefully by 2030 Dublin will have a functional rail/bus based reliable public transport system and the other cities will have bus connects. Then serious money needs to connect the cities.

Frostybrew · 24-08-2018 9:44am

Charleville is open BTW.

Rulmeq · 24-08-2018 9:53am

Frostybrew wrote: »

Charleville is open BTW.

I thought I read some article about a local councillor who wanted it opened, it might have been a different station down around that area.

I still don't see why we couldn't just have a completly new alignment, we did it for the motorways. What's so special about the existing lines that we can't create new ones - it was the same when there was a discussion about a rail link to Shannon, everyone was asking "and what part of the WRC should it join?" I mean why? Why can't we have a direct line from Limerick under the Shannon to SNN (apart from cost, which is always going to be an issue)

Frostybrew · 24-08-2018 10:14am

Rulmeq wrote: »

I thought I read some article about a local councillor who wanted it opened, it might have been a different station down around that area.

I still don't see why we couldn't just have a completly new alignment, we did it for the motorways. What's so special about the existing lines that we can't create new ones - it was the same when there was a discussion about a rail link to Shannon, everyone was asking "and what part of the WRC should it join?" I mean why? Why can't we have a direct line from Limerick under the Shannon to SNN (apart from cost, which is always going to be an issue)

I think it was Killmallock or Knocklong that they were trying to reopen.

There's nothing special about existing lines, its just the cost of a new high speed line from Cork to Dublin is too expensive. For example the cost of HS2 from London to Birmingham has been estimated at £48 billion. Thats the equivalent 48 M20's or 48 LUAS lines. While Cork to Dublin probably wouldn't be that expensive due to a less urban landscape, you would still be talking in the region of 20 to 30 billion.

The 48 billion can be justified in the UK as multiple large cities and urban areas benefit. We don't have the population density or distances here to make it economically viable.

Upgraded lines is the next best option.

Rulmeq · 24-08-2018 10:30am

Frostybrew wrote: »

For example the cost of HS2 from London to Birmingham has been estimated at £48 billion.

Wow, just went through the wikipedia page for that project, that seems extremely expensive for what they are getting. I don't know the exact cost of the ICE in Germany, but there's no way they are paying £400million per mile.

I know this is much older (1999 - 2006), but it was a new line, and is capable of 300km/h - and it's between 2 major urban centres, and it cost in the region of €6billion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne%E2%80%93Frankfurt_high-speed_rail_line

Even with inflation, I don't see how the UK are paying that much...

Frostybrew · 24-08-2018 10:49am

Rulmeq wrote: »

Wow, just went through the wikipedia page for that project, that seems extremely expensive for what they are getting. I don't know the exact cost of the ICE in Germany, but there's no way they are paying £400million per mile.

I know this is much older (1999 - 2006), but it was a new line, and is capable of 300km/h - and it's between 2 major urban centres, and it cost in the region of €6billion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne%E2%80%93Frankfurt_high-speed_rail_line

Even with inflation, I don't see how the UK are paying that much...

Believe me, I would absolutely love a high speed LGV style line between Cork, Dublin, and Belfast; just can't see how it would be anywhere close to viable.

The UK would have a larger urban footprint than Germany; which generally leads to extensive tunnelling, which really drives the price up. Cologne and Frankfurt are relatively compact in comparison to London and Birmingham.

Rulmeq · 24-08-2018 10:55am

Frostybrew wrote: »

Believe me, I would absolutely love a high speed LGV style line between Cork, Dublin, and Belfast; just can't see how it would be anywhere close to viable.

The UK would have a larger urban footprint than Germany; which generally leads to extensive tunnelling, which really drives the price up. Cologne and Frankfurt are relatively compact in comparison to London and Birmingham.

Yeah, even at €6billion it's unrealistic

There are people who are still trying to claim that spending €1billion on a motoroway between Limerick and Cork isn't acceptable.

ncounties · 24-08-2018 8:04pm

Every town along the existing line do not need a high speed rail connection. An intercity from Belfast having to stop at Drogheda or Dundalk for a load of commuters to eventually pile on would defeat the purpose of a high speed intercity service. These populations will benefit from the fact that their line is now electrified and their existing services can accelerate quicker between stations. To build a new tunnel to go via Dublin airport, and then under a huge swath of Dublin's North Side would be insane as well for the actual through put it in terms of passengers it would achieve.

This money would be better spent on the Dart interconnector for which the high speed train could travel through at a restricted speed from Connolly to Heuston and onwards on the Cork line, as well as extending Metro North (I refuse to name it by its new FG name) to meet the line at Donabate, where passengers can alight for the short journey to the airport.

If I had my way, the line would be developed up to a continuous 200kph for it's entirety. The line would also be branched to Limerick. Services would run from Gt. Victoria St, calling at Donabate, Connolly, Heuston, Limerick Junction and Kent (and vice-versa). With the total journey being sub-three hours. Passengers from Belfast could expect to be checking in at Dublin within one hour of departure. Whilst Cork passengers could expect the same within two hours. As for return in investment, this is not quantifiable, and I really don't like the concept which we in the "West" have moved to, that requires civil infrastructure to be a Government profit centre. Urban roads are a cost centre for christ sake.

4068ac1elhodqr · 24-08-2018 8:13pm

Could Hyperloop running at 1,500 km/h not be cheaper (certainly faster), essentially most of it is a just an aul vacum tube.

Musk calculated just $6bn for a line from SF to LA, bargain.

CatInABox · 24-08-2018 10:57pm

Eleanor Wide Grocery wrote: »

Could Hyperloop running at 1,500 km/h not be cheaper (certainly faster), essentially most of it is a just an aul vacum tube.

Musk calculated just $6bn for a line from SF to LA, bargain.

Until there's a hyperloop up and running somewhere, those numbers are just fantasy.

4068ac1elhodqr · 25-08-2018 2:33am

CatInABox wrote: »

Until there's a hyperloop up and running somewhere, those numbers are just fantasy.

The first phase of HyperloopTT is expected to be completed in time for the World Expo (2020) in the UAE.

Mumbai-Pune hyperloop might be next, the first Indian commercial hyperloop between the two cities is targeted to roll by 2025. Expected to be cheaper than plane tickets between the cities.

Virgin Hyperloop One has already tested 240mph in Nevada, but aims to begin full-scale production testing by 2021 in the US.

Bray Head · 25-08-2018 9:42pm

The EU audit office did a big report on high-speed rail in Europe recently. They found build costs of €12m to €28m per kilometre.

You could pick something near the low end for Belfast-Cork - say €15m per kilometre - as there are no big natural obstacles. Road distance is about 420km. That comes in at €6.3bn for the whole project. That is the entire capital budget of Ireland and Northern Ireland for a year.

The line might save at best two hours. Or a whopping €53m per minute saved. You need very large passenger numbers to make this work on cost-benefit grounds, and there simply aren't enough people in Cork, Dublin and Belfast to make a decent case.

Stephen15 · 26-08-2018 2:13am

Whatever about high speed I definitely think there is a case for electrifying the Dublin to Belfast line. If there was to be a United Ireland then Belfast should definitely be developed as a second city to Dublin plenty of room for the city to expand at a higher density to Dublin and Cork which it already has.

Line speeds need to be brought up and there needs four tracking as far Malahide and then we should be looking at electrication. I see Dublin to Belfast being a perfect candidate for electrication as it sees a fairly high amount of commuter movements as well as Intercity movements at both ends of line between Dublin and Dundalk but also between Portadown and Belfast. There also potential for more services to Newry from both sides of the border.

Bray Head · 26-08-2018 6:54pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Whatever about high speed I definitely think there is a case for electrifying the Dublin to Belfast line.

Serious question: what is the cost of electrification per kilometre?

Rulmeq · 27-08-2018 8:12am

Bray Head wrote: »

Serious question: what is the cost of electrification per kilometre?

I can't find the link, but there was an IE report a few years back that estimated it at 500k per km (although I've seen it reported as high as €1million/km)

Frostybrew · 27-08-2018 9:05am

Rulmeq wrote: »

I can't find the link, but there was an IE report a few years back that estimated it at 500k per km (although I've seen it reported as high as €1million/km)

Yes I remember reading IE's Strategic Rail review and they recommend electrification for Cork and Belfast as it is more cost effective than diesel over a long period of time. I imagine €1m per km is feasible which would put it around the €500million mark. I wonder what the cost would be to bring the line speed up to 250km/h, or even 300km/h. Higher speeds would mean rebuilding intermediate stations and creation of more direct curves, as well as quad tracking around Dublin, and possibly tunnelling.

cgcsb · 27-08-2018 9:21am

ncounties wrote: »

This money would be better spent on the Dart interconnector for which the high speed train could travel through at a restricted speed from Connolly to Heuston and onwards on the Cork line, as well as extending Metro North (I refuse to name it by its new FG name) to meet the line at Donabate, where passengers can alight for the short journey to the airport.

Physically impossible to start a tunnel from Connolly to bring it Heuston. DART Underground was planned be between Docklands and Inchicore.

The problem with running high speed rail is there isn't any space on existing track between Drogheda and Dublin City Centre,even conventional speed service cant run on time with 10 minute DARTs hence the need for a new alignment via Dublin Airport

ncounties wrote: »

With the total journey being sub-three hours. Passengers from Belfast could expect to be checking in at Dublin within one hour of departure. Whilst Cork passengers could expect the same within two hours. As for return in investment, this is not quantifiable

It is of course quantifiable. That's how projects get built.

cgcsb · 27-08-2018 9:24am

Eleanor Wide Grocery wrote: »

Could Hyperloop running at 1,500 km/h not be cheaper (certainly faster), essentially most of it is a just an aul vacum tube.

Musk calculated just $6bn for a line from SF to LA, bargain.

hyperloop is a fantasy in it's present form, the plan is to run small vehicles in the loop accommodating individuals or small groups :eek: and that it would be 'on demand' i.e. it'd be a low capacity system for the super rich, not a public transport option. When thy build one with large vehicles on a schedule we'll see.

cgcsb · 27-08-2018 9:27am

Bray Head wrote: »

The EU audit office did a big report on high-speed rail in Europe recently. They found build costs of €12m to €28m per kilometre.

You could pick something near the low end for Belfast-Cork - say €15m per kilometre - as there are no big natural obstacles. Road distance is about 420km. That comes in at €6.3bn for the whole project. That is the entire capital budget of Ireland and Northern Ireland for a year.

The line might save at best two hours. Or a whopping €53m per minute saved. You need very large passenger numbers to make this work on cost-benefit grounds, and there simply aren't enough people in Cork, Dublin and Belfast to make a decent case.

but of course the cost wouldn't come in all in the one year and of course that's building new high speed, not retrofitting.

Rulmeq · 27-08-2018 9:34am

cgcsb wrote: »

but of course the cost wouldn't come in all in the one year and of course that's building new high speed, not retrofitting.

Not only that, but a direct route (from Celbridge, south of Naas, and kind of taking the route the M8 takes) is only just over 200km (admittedly it's ignoring the Belfast portion, and only gets people as far as Heuston), but at the lower range of those costs it's "only" €2.5billion (still no appetite* in Ireland for that expenditure on rail - and I'm also assuming that doesn't include the cost of the trains - I could be wrong on that, maybe the figure is the all in price)

*The short termism annoys me about projects like this, these are hundred year investments, so spending €4billion on a metro that will still be in use in 2120 should not be looked at in terms of the cost today - do we really not want to leave anything as our legacy to future generations - we're leaving them the bills from our day-to-day spending, wouldn't it be nice if they got something out of it instead.

Bray Head · 27-08-2018 9:36am

cgcsb wrote: »

but of course the cost wouldn't come in all in the one year and of course that's building new high speed, not retrofitting.

They define high-speed rail as lines where 250km/h can be exceeded at some point on the journey.

I don't think you could ever exceed 250km/h on the existing line with modifications. You would need to build a new one.

4068ac1elhodqr · 27-08-2018 11:09am

cgcsb wrote: »

hyperloop is a fantasy in it's present form, the plan is to run small vehicles in the loop accommodating individuals or small groups :eek: and that it would be 'on demand' i.e. it'd be a low capacity system for the super rich, not a public transport option. When thy build one with large vehicles on a schedule we'll see.

A fantasy that is currently getting millions of dollars thrown at it from the US to India to UAE (with the 1st to come online 2020 for the world fair in Dubai)?

Maybe Branson's HP1 new £386m test track in spain is just a casual hobby to burn up a few $100 for the laugh, and a new office in Dubai. Maybe France's rail operator SNCF has invested in it 'just for luck'. Maybe India isn't actually building a 15-km test track for the proposed Mumbai-Pune hyperloop this December.

Musk's plans for the 35min jaunt (SF-LA) indicates pods of 28 people (much like a bus or train carriage really), only there will be more pods, more line capacity potential, higher frequency and more adaptable departure loads, topped off of course with much, much quicker journeys.

bk · 27-08-2018 12:03pm

I just spent a few weeks in Italy travelling on trains of all types there from 250KM/h high speed, to regional trains.

While the HS were of course very exciting to be on, it was actually the regional trains that quietly impressed my.

Electric double decker trains that really seemed to pack people in, but got up to speeds of 100+km/h with distances of only 3 or 4 km between stops! Imagine DART doing that!!

I think electrifying lines and get trains up to higher speeds between close spaced stops on commuter lines would be more beneficial and economically achievable then spending 10 billion or so on high speed intercity.

Of course the priority needs to be Metro, DART upgrades, Luas, Bus Connects, etc. That is where the real pain in public transport currently lies.

defrule · 31-08-2018 11:30pm

I'm sceptical on the idea that we are too small or don't have enough population for HSR. For distances like Dublin to Cork or Dublin to Belfast, I don't believe demand will ever reach the point that you will start thinking HSR is a good idea.

If magically we suddenly had a HSR from Cork to Dublin making the journey less than an hour. Suddenly, living in Cork and commuting to Dublin is on the table and you have opened up a entirely new market of users who are non-existent today.

Sometimes you need to take the risk and invest. We should be investing in order to drive growth, but our mentality in Ireland is the opposite, invest to solve problem arising from growth.

Frostybrew · 31-08-2018 11:35pm

defrule wrote: »

I'm sceptical on the idea that we are too small or don't have enough population for HSR. For distances like Dublin to Cork or Dublin to Belfast, I don't believe demand will ever reach the point that you will start thinking HSR is a good idea.

If magically we suddenly had a HSR from Cork to Dublin making the journey less than an hour. Suddenly, living in Cork and commuting to Dublin is on the table and you have opened up a entirely new market of users who are non-existent today.

Sometimes you need to take the risk and invest. We should be investing in order to drive growth, but our mentality in Ireland is the opposite, invest to solve problem arising from growth.

Run it as direct as possible, via Clonmel, Kilkenny, and Carlow. Tunnel through the Knockmealdowns. A two way commuter corridor for both Dublin and Cork. It's fantasy, I know. Still good to drag the crayons out once in a while.

Stephen15 · 01-09-2018 12:00am

defrule wrote: »

I'm sceptical on the idea that we are too small or don't have enough population for HSR. For distances like Dublin to Cork or Dublin to Belfast, I don't believe demand will ever reach the point that you will start thinking HSR is a good idea.

If magically we suddenly had a HSR from Cork to Dublin making the journey less than an hour. Suddenly, living in Cork and commuting to Dublin is on the table and you have opened up a entirely new market of users who are non-existent today.

Sometimes you need to take the risk and invest. We should be investing in order to drive growth, but our mentality in Ireland is the opposite, invest to solve problem arising from growth.

The distances are suitable for high speed IMO as there are hs lines on the continent that are similar distances although they usually form part of a larger network of high speed lines rather than being out there on their own.

I don't think high speed rail is really viable in this country however I do think line speeds need to improved big time on the lines we have. If we got say the line speeds up on the Dublin to Cork line got the line electrified and started running pendolinos on it you could get the journey time down to I would say around about 1h45mins or even 1h30mins likewise with Belfast which could be got down to about 1 hour without the need to go building totally new lines.

Train speeds in Ireland are unacceptably slow not just for Intercity travel but for DART, Commuter and Intercity journies.

bk · 02-09-2018 12:47pm

defrule wrote: »

If magically we suddenly had a HSR from Cork to Dublin making the journey less than an hour. Suddenly, living in Cork and commuting to Dublin is on the table and you have opened up a entirely new market of users who are non-existent today.

have you ever looked at the cost of HSR train tickets in most countries? It would easily be €100 return.

Very few people would be able to afford to commute Cork to Dublin every day at €100, so that idea is simple a non starter.

HSR is intercity travel which means irregular travel, maybe once a week, but certainly not commuting.

So you are talking about spending 10 billion to build HSR and then €100+ per ticket.

Also you really don't want to encourage people to be commuting those sort of distances regularly. People in Ireland are already travelling too far for their commutes. The solution is not to encourage people travel even further, but to encourage people to live closer to their work, walk, cycle and take public transport to work. In other words encourage higher density city living.

Stephen15 wrote: »

The distances are suitable for high speed IMO as there are hs lines on the continent that are similar distances although they usually form part of a larger network of high speed lines rather than being out there on their own.

Yes, absolutely the distance is fine. The issue is that to justify the high costs of HSR (both initial construction and ongoing ticket costs), you really need multiple big, million plus people, cities along the line.

I als agree completely that we need to do far more with what we have and should be able to achieve reasonably higher speeds without building separate dedicated HSR lines.

ncounties · 02-09-2018 6:01pm

bk wrote: »

have you ever looked at the cost of HSR train tickets in most countries? It would easily be €100 return.

Very few people would be able to afford to commute Cork to Dublin every day at €100, so that idea is simple a non starter.

HSR is intercity travel which means irregular travel, maybe once a week, but certainly not commuting.

So you are talking about spending 10 billion to build HSR and then €100+ per ticket.

Also you really don't want to encourage people to be commuting those sort of distances regularly. People in Ireland are already travelling too far for their commutes. The solution is not to encourage people travel even further, but to encourage people to live closer to their work, walk, cycle and take public transport to work. In other words encourage higher density city living.

Yes, absolutely the distance is fine. The issue is that to justify the high costs of HSR (both initial construction and ongoing ticket costs), you really need multiple big, million plus people, cities along the line.

I als agree completely that we need to do far more with what we have and should be able to achieve reasonably higher speeds without building separate dedicated HSR lines.

Nonsensical comparison. I bet those journeys that you traveled on for over 100e a ticket were for distances well over 500kms. 200kph would be HS for Ireland, and there is no way in hell that would be the charge applied to a journey c. 160kms. I regularly traveled by ´High Speed´in England, and it was rarely over 20 pounds a ticket.

joeysoap · 02-09-2018 6:26pm

Salzburg to Vienna (about 30 kms longer than Belfast to Cork) 295kms

2hrs 32 mins. Frequent trains 1or 2 an hour.

Different prices but from €19 for ‘second class’ which is superb on double decker trains. Not penalized either for late booking, I purchased a ticket ( internet ticket, no need to printout) for travel later that day. Westbahn.

bk · 02-09-2018 6:36pm

And Irish Rail charge almost €90 for Cork to Dublin Return (€40 if booked way in advance online) for a slow train and you think a 10 billion HSR would be less that that! :rolleyes:

Even at €40 most people couldn't afford to commute daily on a service like this.

ncounties · 02-09-2018 6:42pm

bk wrote: »

And Irish Rail charge almost €90 for Cork to Dublin Return (€40 if booked way in advance online) for a slow train and you think a 10 billion HSR would be less that that! :rolleyes:

Even at €40 most people couldn't afford to commute daily on a service like this.

Why would you want to commute from Cork!

bk · 02-09-2018 6:48pm

ncounties wrote: »

Why would you want to commute from Cork!

See a few posts back...

defrule wrote: »

If magically we suddenly had a HSR from Cork to Dublin making the journey less than an hour. Suddenly, living in Cork and commuting to Dublin is on the table and you have opened up a entirely new market of users who are non-existent today.

This is what I was replying too.

Every time I see the discussion of HSR comes up, people pop up with the unrealistic idea that you can commute regularly * via HSR.

* If we had HSR I'm certain business people would pop up to Dublin for the day for meetings and back down the same day from time to time, as people use to do when their were flights between Cork and Dublin. But someone actually living in Cork and working in Dublin every day is simply unrealistic.

Stephen15 · 02-09-2018 8:50pm

To be fair anyone doing a Dublin to Cork commute would proabably have an annual Taxsaver ticket so wouldn't be paying full price. I agree with bk I wouldn't be encouring people to do Dublin to Cork commutes. Cork should be developing at it's own city not as a commuter town for Dublin.

I'm all in for investing in railways not just in Dublin but high speed rail in a small country like Ireland is completely unesscary. I know the distance is suitable but to link two cities with hsr both cities but the two cities neither of which are big enough for it to justify the cost. Building a metro for Dublin and DU which I believe could be done for less as a Metro and serve more places mind you would be better. As well as improving the bus service in Cork and Dublin and building light rail in Cork would be better way of spending money.

Anyway I'm rambling on now so I'll stop but I do believe significant improvements can be made to the Dublin to Cork line by improving line speeds and ultimately electrification of the line however electrication would suit the Belfast line better due to the amount of commuter movements at both ends of the line but it's definetely something that should considered in the long run but not as an immediate priority.

D.L.R. · 02-09-2018 10:04pm

One major problem with the Cork line is the significant dogleg via Charleville. A more direct route (via Mitchelstown say) would make a big difference.

pigtown · 02-09-2018 11:00pm

Or run the line via Limerick so that the two smaller cities begin to act as a counterweight to Dublin

bk · 02-09-2018 11:04pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

To be fair anyone doing a Dublin to Cork commute would proabably have an annual Taxsaver ticket so wouldn't be paying full price. I agree with bk I wouldn't be encouring people to do Dublin to Cork commutes. Cork should be developing at it's own city not as a commuter town for Dublin.

True, though you'd still be talking €2,600 a year if you were earning the top rate of tax! And that is at current ticket prices for the slow train and assuming no price increase for HSR, which would be unrealistic IMO.

Nor would that include the cost of a booked seat (€10 per day, so would actually double the above price per year!!), cost of getting to and from the station and the time to get too and from the station. Even with HSR, you'd be looking realistically at commuting 3 hours a day. A non starter IMO.

Agree completely that we need to be focusing on improving the public transport into and around our cities. People living in Cork should be working in Cork, not half way across the country.

I'm not saying that HSR will never happen, never is a long time. But that it certainly is not a priority in the short or medium term.

Say in maybe 50 years or so, if we have a united Ireland, Belfast is our second city. Dublin, Belfast and Cork metro populations have all doubled (3m, 1m+, 800k), Dublin has 4 or 5 Metros including DU, Cork and Belfast decent tram networks and the M1 jammed, then yes I can see us turning our attention to doing a Cork to Belfast HSR.

But we have a lot of other more important improvements to work on first.

Bray Head · 03-09-2018 6:17am

joeysoap wrote: »

Salzburg to Vienna (about 30 kms longer than Belfast to Cork) 295kms

2hrs 32 mins. Frequent trains 1or 2 an hour.

I'm sure this is very nice but 115km/h is not high-speed rail, which is what the thread is about.

joeysoap · 03-09-2018 11:05am

Bray Head wrote: »

I'm sure this is very nice but 115km/h is not high-speed rail, which is what the thread is about.

There are six stops on that route. But I take your point. Highlighting that fast reliable trains are not necassarily expensive. Well, in Austria anyway.

There are expensive ICE trains which are faster, choice is yours.

bk · 03-09-2018 11:19am

joeysoap wrote: »

There are six stops on that route. But I take your point. Highlighting that fast reliable trains are not necassarily expensive. Well, in Austria anyway.

There are expensive ICE trains which are faster, choice is yours.

Ah, but we were talking about HSR, by which we meant ICE type trains. As you say ICE/HSR are usually more expensive, exactly my point.

What you are talking about so are just slightly faster versions of what we have. I think we all agree that more should be done to get more speed out of our existing rail network and I'd also like to see it being cheaper.

Even our relatively slow trains get nowhere near their max speed for most of the journeys due to speed restrictions, poor track bed, bad curves, stations, etc. Making reasonable improvements to those, along with electrification, should allow for much faster journey times without going for the full expense of HSR/ICE.

Bray Head · 03-09-2018 11:52am

It's interesting to note that faster rail connections between Cork/Dublin/Belfast are never really on the wish lists of chambers of commerce in any of these places. I'm sure an hour and a half would be nice, but for now the two hours twenty or so is fine, and there isn't massive latent demand at a faster speed.

I would guess that there are bigger priorities, not least the poor state of rail-based public transport in each of those cities.

Connectivity to the UK and beyond is also much more important for exporting firms. Witness the hullabaloo in 2007 when Shannon was due to lose its Heathrow connection.

cgcsb · 03-09-2018 11:56am

Upgrading existing lines to 200-250 km/h is definitely the way to go. Belfast and Cork should not be more than 2 hours from Dublin. Ideally 1 hour and 1.5 hours respectively with trains operating every half hour should be standard, even now.
Dublin-Galway also needs to be within 1.5 hours of Dublin and at least an hourly service is needed. The rest of the network is mostly ok for what it serves. Sligo should have more passing loops and 160km/h running as standard as should Waterford, that shouldn't be too difficult to achieve with a modest budget by European standards.

cgcsb · 03-09-2018 11:59am

Bray Head wrote: »

It's interesting to note that faster rail connections between Cork/Dublin/Belfast are never really on the wish lists of chambers of commerce in any of these places. I'm sure an hour and a half would be nice, but for now the two hours twenty or so is fine, and there isn't massive latent demand at a faster speed.

I would guess that there are bigger priorities, not least the poor state of rail-based public transport in each of those cities.

Connectivity to the UK and beyond is also much more important for exporting firms. Witness the hullabaloo in 2007 when Shannon was due to lose its Heathrow connection.

Transport within the Cities is obviously a priority. By the middle of the 20s, hopefully, DART, Metro and BusConnects will be well on their way so a scheme to improve intercity lines will probably go ahead.

bk · 03-09-2018 12:11pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Upgrading existing lines to 200-250 km/h is definitely the way to go. Belfast and Cork should not be more than 2 hours from Dublin. Ideally 1 hour and 1.5 hours respectively with trains operating every half hour should be standard, even now.
Dublin-Galway also needs to be within 1.5 hours of Dublin and at least an hourly service is needed. The rest of the network is mostly ok for what it serves. Sligo should have more passing loops and 160km/h running as standard as should Waterford, that shouldn't be too difficult to achieve with a modest budget by European standards.

cgcsb wrote: »

Transport within the Cities is obviously a priority. By the middle of the 20s, hopefully, DART, Metro and BusConnects will be well on their way so a scheme to improve intercity lines will probably go ahead.

I agree, but we should be clear that this isn't HSR, which is the title of this thread.

HSR, is usually considered to be 250km/h+ (usually starting 300km/h) and usually on completely separate new track alignment and no mixing with other train services. Cork to Belfast with that would cost 10bn.

200km/h Intercity 125 type service or 250km/h Pendolino type services on normal existing track isn't really HSR, more like medium speed rail and thus would be a completely different topic and thread.

I agree that 200km/h would be a much more realistic goal for us. But it would still be very challenging and not cheap.

The problem with Dublin to Belfast is that a 200km/h train would simply run into the back of the DARTs and all the congestion around the northern line. You'd really need to build a tunnel from Heuston to beyond Clontarf at least and quad track the rest. And no I don't mean DART Underground, it would need to be longer then that and again you don't want to be mixing DART's and intercities, that is just repeating the mistakes of the past.

Cork to Dublin is longer, but less issues with tunneling. But a lot of the Cork track is unsuited to higher speeds and would require a lot of work to remove some of the curves and improving trackbed, etc.

I'd agree more doable then HSR, but still not exactly cheap and easy.

Bray Head · 03-09-2018 1:04pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Upgrading existing lines to 200-250 km/h is definitely the way to go. Belfast and Cork should not be more than 2 hours from Dublin. Ideally 1 hour and 1.5 hours respectively with trains operating every half hour should be standard, even now.
.

Where on earth is demand for 20 trains to and from Belfast going to come from???

cgcsb · 03-09-2018 1:07pm

250km/hr can be considered 'high speed' but that's all semantics really. Let's call it 'medium speed' for arguments sake. There wouldn't be a need to go much faster than that, especially not if it costs in the billions to get from 250-300km/h, when the 300km/h speed only gets reached for a matter of minutes between major stops. Long term Irish rail should aim to be 'medium speed'.

To solve the issues around commuter and intercity rail mixing I'd have all Belfast trains go on a new track from Drogheda south through the airport and a new tunnel to Heuston, and on to Cork. That way the current Drogheda-Dublin line can be DART only, send all Galway, Waterford, Westport and Kerry trains to terminate at a new Dublin Airport terminus via the same tunnel. Get four tracks into Heuston and then you have Rosslare trains (stop them at Bray as far as I'm concerned, and Sligo trains, stop them at Whitworth Road). You then have a system with almost no track sharing between DART and InterCity. You also have Dublin Airport and Dublin City Centre within 1.5 hours of almost everyone in Ireland.

cgcsb · 03-09-2018 1:09pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Where on earth is demand for 20 trains to and from Belfast going to come from???

Brexit may end the train entirely, but we're talking from the point of view of an optimistic future. Note the amount of companies offering express services between Dublin and Belfast. There's demand there for a service that can get you there in time approaching what a car can do.

bk · 03-09-2018 2:29pm

cgcsb wrote: »

To solve the issues around commuter and intercity rail mixing I'd have all Belfast trains go on a new track from Drogheda south through the airport and a new tunnel to Heuston, and on to Cork.

Thing is, if you do all that, it won't be much cheaper then true HSR. With a new fully segregated track for a lot of the way and a very long tunnel. You'd probably talking about the region of 6bn right there.

I mean their is little cost difference in terms of the train between a 200km/h train that runs on existing tracks and a 300km/h ICE train that runs on a dedicated track. It is the need for a completely new alignment and track for ICE/HSR that makes it more expensive, not really the train itself. But with the above your almost doing that half way to Belfast anyway.

It is more realistic then true HSR and I do think it will happen some time in the distant future. But lots of other priorities first and Brexit is a big blocker to all this.

cgcsb · 03-09-2018 4:11pm

bk wrote: »

Thing is, if you do all that, it won't be much cheaper then true HSR. With a new fully segregated track for a lot of the way and a very long tunnel. You'd probably talking about the region of 6bn right there.

I mean their is little cost difference in terms of the train between a 200km/h train that runs on existing tracks and a 300km/h ICE train that runs on a dedicated track. It is the need for a completely new alignment and track for ICE/HSR that makes it more expensive, not really the train itself. But with the above your almost doing that half way to Belfast anyway.

It is more realistic then true HSR and I do think it will happen some time in the distant future. But lots of other priorities first and Brexit is a big blocker to all this.

The new section could be super fast, super high spec, as it'd be the 'Spine' of almost all intercity rail in Ireland. I doubt a train would reach 350km/hr between Drogheda and Dublin Airport or between Dublin Airport and Heuston. The new route would serve the purpose of relieving the commuter rail network of intercity and giving intercity trains a good bit of speed and top class connectivity. The rest of the Cork and Belfast lines could be retrofit with top speeds of 250km/h or 200km/h in parts.

Cork-Dublin-Belfast - High speed rail

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