Parking/Blocking Drive

Turkish1 · 19-08-2018 06:11PM #1

Had a chat witglh a garda friend of mine in relation to someone parking across a neighbour's driveway.

In essence his take on it was, it was not illegal to park across someone's driveway obstructing it once the owner of the house can access it. So i prodded some more and his advice/take on it was that once a vehicle could get in/out regardless of how awkward, mounting curb etc needed to gain access that it was only if it was completely blocked.

Is that correct, in my completely uneducated opinion I would have expected that the owner of a property would have unimpeded access to their property. If not, what constitutes an ability to access? A smart car, or a hummer? A nervous/poor driver? Etc...

Thoughts?

Victor · 19-08-2018 07:30PM

I think reasonableness would apply. You can hardly demand space for a monster truck if you drive a Micra and not a monster truck.

Similarly, you would be entitled to reasonable space between vehicles - the other driver can't just allow the exact width of a Micra.

GM228 · 19-08-2018 07:43PM

Turkish1 wrote: »

In essence his take on it was, it was not illegal to park across someone's driveway obstructing it once the owner of the house can access it. So i prodded some more and his advice/take on it was that once a vehicle could get in/out regardless of how awkward, mounting curb etc needed to gain access that it was only if it was completely blocked.

Well let's look at the legislation first:-

Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997 wrote:

Prohibitions on Parking

36. (2) A vehicle shall not be parked—

(g) in any place, position or manner that will result in the vehicle obstructing an entrance or an exit for vehicles to or from a premises, save with the consent of the occupier of such premises

It is illegal to "park across someone's driveway obstructing it".

Obstruction is not defined (and I don't see a need for it to be) so the ordinary meaning applies. The ordinary meaning of the word obstruct/obstruction is to block or hinder access, by having to mount the footway or make it very awkward to access/exit the driveway is by definition obstructing the driveway.

Lmklad · 19-08-2018 09:16PM

GM228 wrote: »

Turkish1 wrote: »

In essence his take on it was, it was not illegal to park across someone's driveway obstructing it once the owner of the house can access it. So i prodded some more and his advice/take on it was that once a vehicle could get in/out regardless of how awkward, mounting curb etc needed to gain access that it was only if it was completely blocked.

Well let's look at the legislation first:-

Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997 wrote:

Prohibitions on Parking

36. (2) A vehicle shall not be parked—

(g) in any place, position or manner that will result in the vehicle obstructing an entrance or an exit for vehicles to or from a premises, save with the consent of the occupier of such premises

It is illegal to "park across someone's driveway obstructing it".

Obstruction is not defined (and I don't see a need for it to be) so the ordinary meaning applies. The ordinary meaning of the word obstruct/obstruction is to block or hinder access, by having to mount the footway or make it very awkward to access/exit the driveway is by definition obstructing the driveway.

Correct however as there is no definition of obstruct I would think the guard is taking the safest interpretation for court purposes. It’s easy to prove obstruction if the driveway cannot be accessed at all and less easy to prove if access is possible although awkward.

ohnonotgmail · 20-08-2018 08:24AM

Lmklad wrote: »

Correct however as there is no definition of obstruct I would think the guard is taking the safest interpretation for court purposes. It’s easy to prove obstruction if the driveway cannot be accessed at all and less easy to prove if access is possible although awkward.

I think the guard is taking their usual "its a civil matter" approach as they dont want to get involved. If you create a difficulty in accessing a driveway you are obstructing it.

seamus · 20-08-2018 08:52AM

Since it is illegal in all cases to drive ones vehicle on a path or a grass verge, I think it's fair to say that requiring any vehicle to mount an undished kerb to gain access to a property, is requiring them to break the law. Therefore they are being hindered/obstructed.

"The Garda isn't stopping you from getting into your home, you just have to assault him to get him out of the way".

Turkish1 · 23-08-2018 05:28PM

Thanks, as i suspected my buddy was wrong in this instance. Likely they just dont want to get involved in this kind of thing.

Going one step further - What would the remedy be?

Assuming (i) the garda wont really get involved, and (ii) the neighbour is not very obliging in moving the car there does not appear to be any remedy for the party impacted. E.g. I assume one would not be entitled to have the car towed? What if they had evidence (photo/video) of the obstruction and refusal of neighbour to move.

Any options?

Victor · 23-08-2018 07:13PM

If the Garda won't get involved, you can try the council.

Lmklad · 23-08-2018 08:57PM

Victor wrote: »

If the Garda won't get involved, you can try the council.

Council might ticket if there are lines but they will not tow. Simplest thing to do is when contacting Gardai to get the name of Garda and ask to speak with the Gardai arrive.

Payton · 23-08-2018 09:08PM

I had this before when someone was parking outside my house. I asked to speak to the traffic sergeant in my local station, his reply was if i have access and egress there is not a lot I can do. To stop the situation I parked outside my house and the issue moved onto someone else's house.

Discodog · 24-08-2018 07:49AM

A car parked across a gated driveway, there was a large no parking sign on the gate. The property owner was trapped in his house all day & the Guards didn't want to know.

Peregrinus · 24-08-2018 08:58AM

Discodog wrote: »

A car parked across a gated driveway, there was a large no parking sign on the gate. The property owner was trapped in his house all day & the Guards didn't want to know.

Well, strictly speaking the property owner's car was trapped all day. The property owner could presumably leave on foot.

Still, very annoying. And not a situation, evidently, that the guards can or will resolve.

So, what do boardies think about the idea of abating a nuisance in this situation? If someobody has abandoned their property in a public roadway where they have no right to do so, and it's causing a nuisance by blocking lawful use of the roadway (which includes using the roadway to access the adjacent properties) can you abate the nuisance by moving the property so that you can access the adjacent property? And if the person who abandoned the car has been so stupid as to lock it, well, you may have to break the window in order to release the handbrake. Do boardies think you'd have a defence to a criminal damage-type charge if you argued that you were abating a nuisance caused by the person who left the car where it was?

ohnonotgmail · 24-08-2018 09:01AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, strictly speaking the property owner's car was trapped all day. The property owner could presumably leave on foot.

Still, very annoying. And not a situation, evidently, that the guards can or will resolve.

So, what do boardies think about the idea of abating a nuisance in this situation? If someobody has abandoned their property in a public roadway where they have no right to do so, and it's causing a nuisance by blocking lawful use of the roadway (which includes using the roadway to access the adjacent properties) can you abate the nuisance by moving the property so that you can access the adjacent property? And if the person who abandoned the car has been so stupid as to lock it, well, you may have to break the window in order to release the handbrake. Do boardies think you'd have a defence to a criminal damage-type charge if you argued that you were abating a nuisance caused by the person who left the car where it was?

No need to break anything. if you have 3 friends available you can easily bounce a car in any direction. In fact if you bounced it into the middle of the road the guards might be of a mind to actually do something about it.

seamus · 24-08-2018 09:05AM

"Abating a nuisance" isn't even really necessary. The Road Traffic Act specifically authorises you to take "steps that are reasonably necessary" to move a vehicle that's blocking ingress/egress to anywhere.

In the absence of a trolley, or four strong lads to bounce the vehicle out, I think breaking the passenger window to release the handbrake is a reasonable step.

Peregrinus · 24-08-2018 09:08AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

No need to break anything. if you have 3 friends available you can easily bounce a car in any direction. In fact if you bounced it into the middle of the road the guards might be of a mind to actually do something about it.

1. What if you don't have three friends available?

2. More seriously, I think the "abating a nuisance" argument only works if you do in fact abate the nuisance. If you just move it into the middle of the road you're making the nuisance greater, not lesser. I don't think this argument flies unless there is somewhere to where you can move the car where it won't be a nuisance.

Let's say that, since the owner abandoned it across your gate, the parking space immediately in front has opened up, and you want to push it into that space. You can't bounce it forwards in a straight line and, anyway, you haven't the manpower for bouncing. You break the window, open the door, release the handbrake, push the car forward, reengage the handbrake, close the door. Where you do stand, getting-sued-wise? Or getting-prosecuted-wise?

Billgirlylegs · 24-08-2018 09:08AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, strictly speaking the property owner's car was trapped all day. The property owner could presumably leave on foot.

Still, very annoying. And not a situation, evidently, that the guards can or will resolve.

So, what do boardies think about the idea of abating a nuisance in this situation? If someobody has abandoned their property in a public roadway where they have no right to do so, and it's causing a nuisance by blocking lawful use of the roadway (which includes using the roadway to access the adjacent properties) can you abate the nuisance by moving the property so that you can access the adjacent property? And if the person who abandoned the car has been so stupid as to lock it, well, you may have to break the window in order to release the handbrake. Do boardies think you'd have a defence to a criminal damage-type charge if you argued that you were abating a nuisance caused by the person who left the car where it was?

Absolutely no (legal) way you can move an illegally parked car.
Contact the authorities and get them to deal with it.
If you move it, where are you going to put it?
If you damage it(even accidentally), you are liable for repair cost

troyzer · 24-08-2018 09:12AM

On Paddy's Day just gone there was a parade which started around the corner from me in my housing estate. Cars were flooded onto my road and while there was technically enough room to drive my car straight of the drive, the cars were on top of each other to the point where I couldn't turn.

I had a rant at someone who came back and they said they did nothing wrong because there was technically enough room to leave the driveway.

seamus · 24-08-2018 09:13AM

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

Absolutely no (legal) way you can move an illegally parked car.

This is not correct, if the vehicle is blocking an entrance/exit.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/113/enacted/en/html

Section 4 in particular.

Strictly speaking, any offence only applies if you "interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle".

If you can move the vehicle without actually "interfering with the mechanism", such as by sticking it on a trolley, then you may not be committing an offence.

Bagsies not being the test case though.

The J Stands for Jay · 24-08-2018 09:25AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

1. What if you don't have three friends available?

2. More seriously, I think the "abating a nuisance" argument only works if you do in fact abate the nuisance. If you just move it into the middle of the road you're making the nuisance greater, not lesser. I don't think this argument flies unless there is somewhere to where you can move the car where it won't be a nuisance.

Let's say that, since the owner abandoned it across your gate, the parking space immediately in front has opened up, and you want to push it into that space. You can't bounce it forwards in a straight line and, anyway, you haven't the manpower for bouncing. You break the window, open the door, release the handbrake, push the car forward, reengage the handbrake, close the door. Where you do stand, getting-sued-wise? Or getting-prosecuted-wise?

Car jack and 4 biscuit tin lids.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp · 24-08-2018 09:36AM

Our street has a problem with cars obstructing and in cases blocking driveways. It has been going on over eight years.
Gardai don't want to know. Council don't want to know. Local TDs don't want to know. Despite residents reporting each and every time we have been obstructed or blocked to the Gardai, diddly squat has been done. "Have you tried talking to the vehicle owner" is the usual response from the Gardai.

We are blocked from entering or exiting our street for hours at least one a month. When you report it to the Gardai..,"we'll send a car when one becomes available." :rolleyes:

GM228 · 24-08-2018 09:53AM

seamus wrote: »

Strictly speaking, any offence only applies if you "interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle".

If you can move the vehicle without actually "interfering with the mechanism", such as by sticking it on a trolley, then you may not be committing an offence.

Bagsies not being the test case though.

And as you already pointed out even if you do interfere with the mechanism of a vehicle you are not committing an offence if reasonably required to move the vehicle by human propulsion.

GM228 · 24-08-2018 09:55AM

Lmklad wrote: »

Council might ticket if there are lines but they will not tow. Simplest thing to do is when contacting Gardai to get the name of Garda and ask to speak with the Gardai arrive.

Council can tow unlawfully parked vehicles.

GM228 · 24-08-2018 10:23AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Do boardies think you'd have a defence to a criminal damage-type charge if you argued that you were abating a nuisance caused by the person who left the car where it was?

A charge of criminal damage can be defeated if you use the defence of "lawful excuse", the question then is does S113 (4) of the Road Traffic Act 1961 for example simply afford an exemption to S113 (which strictly applies to the mechanicals only of a vehicle) or does it also infer a lawful excuse to for example break a window to protect a right or privilege - whilst the inners of a window may be mechanical the glass itself is not, however you could argue you had lawful excuse to break the window in order to interfere with (release) the handbrake which was reasonable under the circumstances defeating a charge under S113.

The question raised is whilst it is illegal to block ones entey/exit (and they can take reasonable steps to prevent that) is your entry/exit considered to be a right or interest over land for the purposes of the CD Act?

Turkish1 · 24-08-2018 04:01PM

Interesting to hear other stories/opinions.

Would one be within their rights to do thw following:

A neighbour's car is blocking driveway
Park one car directly behind the offending car and one directly in front - at extremely close proximity in order to ensure that the offending car could not be moved.. sort of fighting fire with fire i suppose.

I am thinking if for example I was going away for a week and didnt need my cars - could i park as stated above once I was parked legally i.e. not blocking a driveway etc..

Victor · 24-08-2018 05:01PM

GM228 wrote: »

The question raised is whilst it is illegal to block ones entey/exit (and they can take reasonable steps to prevent that) is your entry/exit considered to be a right or interest over land for the purposes of the CD Act?

I think there would be a common law right to come and go from your own premises as you wish.

Forming an opening onto a public road requires planning permission. If this has been granted, and the appropriate fees for works paid and a dished kerb implemented, then that is all the permission you need. you have the right to use that opening and under the Road Traffic Acts lawful to cross any footway with a vehicle for the purposes of access or egress.

The Road Traffic Regulations make it an offence to block a vehicular entrance without the permission of the occupier.

Turkish1 wrote: »

Park one car directly behind the offending car and one directly in front - at extremely close proximity in order to ensure that the offending car could not be moved.. sort of fighting fire with fire i suppose.

I am thinking if for example I was going away for a week and didnt need my cars - could i park as stated above once I was parked legally i.e. not blocking a driveway etc..

First off, you can block your own driveway, provided it is legal to park there.

However, you risk:
* a theft offence for dishonestly depriving someone of their property;
* an obstructing the road offence;
* damage to your vehicle(s).

GM228 · 24-08-2018 07:28PM

Victor wrote: »

I think there would be a common law right to come and go from your own premises as you wish.

There are long established common law rights in relation to property such as free use and enjoyment etc, however in relation to the Criminal Damage Act 1991 the lawful excuse must be in relation to a "right or privilege in or over land", I would take that to mean stopping others from taking possession or control for example of your property, a right as in title or control.

4ensic15 · 24-08-2018 07:43PM

GM228 wrote: »

There are long established common law rights in relation to property such as free use and enjoyment etc, however in relation to the Criminal Damage Act 1991 the lawful excuse must be in relation to a "right or privilege in or over land", I would take that to mean stopping others from taking possession or control for example of your property, a right as in title or control.

The right of egress is a right or privilege over land. Someone blocking your driveway is assuming some level of control over your property.

Discodog · 24-08-2018 07:51PM

So would blocking a driveway constitute a criminal or civil act?

GM228 · 24-08-2018 08:00PM

4ensic15 wrote: »

The right of egress is a right or privilege over land. Someone blocking your driveway is assuming some level of control over your property.

Yes, but the right of ingress or egress applies to the person over their land, once the person can still access/exit their property themselves their right is not violated, you have not prevented them from accessing/exiting their property, rather you have just made it awkward to do it in one particular way, therefore you have not denied them their right, there is no right to drive.

4ensic15 · 25-08-2018 07:53AM

GM228 wrote: »

Yes, but the right of ingress or egress applies to the person over their land, once the person can still access/exit their property themselves their right is not violated, you have not prevented them from accessing/exiting their property, rather you have just made it awkward to do it in one particular way, therefore you have not denied them their right, there is no right to drive.

Making it awkward usually makes it more difficult and likely unsafe as sight lines will be blocked. A right of egress means a right to exit easily and safely, not a right to edge out in a dangerous and illegal manner. There is a substantial interference with the owner's rights where there is even a partial obstruction.

Spook_ie · 25-08-2018 12:14PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, strictly speaking the property owner's car was trapped all day. The property owner could presumably leave on foot.

Still, very annoying. And not a situation, evidently, that the guards can or will resolve.

So, what do boardies think about the idea of abating a nuisance in this situation? If someobody has abandoned their property in a public roadway where they have no right to do so, and it's causing a nuisance by blocking lawful use of the roadway (which includes using the roadway to access the adjacent properties) can you abate the nuisance by moving the property so that you can access the adjacent property? And if the person who abandoned the car has been so stupid as to lock it, well, you may have to break the window in order to release the handbrake. Do boardies think you'd have a defence to a criminal damage-type charge if you argued that you were abating a nuisance caused by the person who left the car where it was?

Use a tow truck winch, had to get the OH car to a garage after losing keys, Hand Brake On ( decent enough hand brake ) just pulled it onto the low loader and away to the garage.

No idea if I had of left it in gear as I sometimes do if they could do it then without a suspended tow

Parking/Blocking Drive

Comments