Should we protest against the pope's visit?

Irish Kings · 21-08-2018 08:25AM

bodhrandude wrote: »

Did they phone it in.

So the subject of Child abuse is funny now is it ?

Seeing as you think your so smart, why no attempt by the Irish authorities to convict bishops that concealing crimes ?

lawred2 · 21-08-2018 08:30AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Holy Father should be welcomed. This witch hunt against the Catholic Church is dangerous. If Ireland were to enter a destabilizing period of geopolitics brought on by a great depression, there are people who would blame the Catholic church. My suggestion to Catholics who feel intimidated by by these people would be to consider Orthodoxy as it is very close to Catholicism and like the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Churches can reasonably claim to have been founded by Christ.

Witch Hunt evokes images of falsely accused

That is quite clearly not the case here

P_1 · 21-08-2018 08:38AM

Simple solution. We need it written into our constitution that civil law always takes precedence over canon law. Now that is a referendum worth having

Irish Kings · 21-08-2018 08:41AM

P_1 wrote: »

Simple solution. We need it written into our constitution that civil law always takes precedence over canon law. Now that is a referendum worth having

Since when did the Irish authorities claim that it does, and why have they not attempted a single criminal conviction for covering up ? for which there is ample evidence that has been presented by the media and politicians ? Is concealing crime and attempting to pervert the course of justice not a criminal offence any more ?

lawred2 · 21-08-2018 08:41AM

P_1 wrote: »

Simple solution. We need it written into our constitution that civil law always takes precedence over canon law. Now that is a referendum worth having

Fairly sure that that's the case without a referendum.

The Irish state has proven itself complicit in covering up child abuse and is complicit in not seeking agreed redress from the church

P_1 · 21-08-2018 08:42AM

lawred2 wrote: »

Fairly sure that that's the case without a referendum.

The preamble to the constitution could suggest otherwise. Without it being explicitly stated it will always be open to interpretation by judges

Irish Kings · 21-08-2018 08:45AM

P_1 wrote: »

The preamble to the constitution could suggest otherwise. Without it being explicitly stated it will always be open to interpretation by judges

Rubbish. Canon law does not superseded state law, never has, and never will, it has no value outside the Church any more than a golf clubs rules, so I'm not buying any such excuses that there should be no criminal convictions for concealing and covering up crime. If a bishop has been covering up crime (and the media and politicians have provided plenty of evidence to date that some of them have), he can be arrested, questioned, and put on trial like anyone else, so why not a single arrest to date ?

P_1 · 21-08-2018 08:47AM

Irish Kings wrote: »

Rubbish. Canon law does not superseded state law, never has, and never will, it has no value outside the Church any more than a golf clubs rules, so I'm not buying your excuse that there should be no criminal convictions for concealing and covering up crime.

I agree but those bastards have used that as an excuse in the past.

Ideally 2 referendums should be had. 1 re state law v canon law (and also sharia). Another re seizing church lands as restitution

volchitsa · 21-08-2018 08:54AM

Irish Kings wrote: »

Since when did the Irish authorities claim that it does, and why have they not attempted a single criminal conviction for covering up ? for which there is ample evidence that has been presented by the media and politicians ? Is concealing crime and attempting to pervert the course of justice not a criminal offence any more ?

I don't know the answer, but I can think of a number of factors, from "innate social conservatism of TDs" (the mindset that led them to sweat blood over the utterly ineffectual POLDP when public opinion had clearly left them in the dust well before that) to possible collusion within an elite who feel they have more in common with the bishop than with the man, or more particularly, the young woman, in the street.

It's like the question of why the Minister for Health intended to gift the new NMH to an order of nuns with a dodgy record in treatment of women and babies, and who were obviously going to refuse to provide abortions whatever the law said.

I have no idea why the Min for Health ever imagined that could work - but querying why he did it is not half as important as fixing the problem. I think the same is true here - it's a good question, but there's a risk that it could turn into a "wood for the trees" scenario. If you have evidence that could serve for a court case, why don't you get it served - and let's worry about why nobody else did it first after the case has been won.

Irish Kings · 21-08-2018 08:55AM

P_1 wrote: »

I agree but those bastards have used that as an excuse in the past.

Ideally 2 referendums should be had. 1 re state law v canon law (and also sharia). Another re seizing church lands as restitution

No excuse from criminals prevent the state attempting convictions in any other area of crime, so why not a single attempt by the authorities to convict even one bishop for even one case of attempting to pervert the course of justice ?

Irish Kings · 21-08-2018 08:58AM

volchitsa wrote: »

I don't know the answer, but I can think of a number of factors, from "innate social conservatism of TDs" (the mindset that led them to sweat blood over the utterly ineffectual POLDP when public opinion had clearly left them in the dust well before that) to possible collusion within an elite who feel they have more in common with the bishop than with the man, or more particularly, the young woman, in the street.

It's like the question of why the Minister for Health intended to gift the new NMH to an order of nuns with a dodgy record in treatment of women and babies, and who were obviously going to refuse to provide abortions whatever the law said.

I have no idea why the Min for Health ever imagined that could work - but querying why he did it is not half as important as fixing the problem. I think the same is true here - it's a good question, but there's a risk that it could turn into a "wood for the trees" scenario. If you have evidence that could serve for a court case, why don't you get it served - and let's worry about why nobody else did it first after the case has been won.

What's the point about complaining about hospital patronage if the bigger issue of child abuse and cover up is being ignored by the authorities and the criminal justice system in Ireland , that's just more diversion.

I might have bought the excuse that Irish politicians were pro Catholic church 40 years ago, and were blocking any investigations, but they are not now, so I'm not buying that excuse any more for not even attempting a single criminal prosecution. You don't fix any problem by bringing no one to justice and that is the states job. Not a single arrest, warrant, or even an attempt to convict one of them. We are dealing with Child abuse and the attempt to cover up and conceal Child abuse and pervert the course of Justice.

volchitsa · 21-08-2018 09:10AM

Irish Kings wrote: »

No excuse from criminals prevent the state attempting convictions in any other area of crime, so why not a single attempt by the authorities to convict even one bishop for even one case of attempting to pervert the course of justice ?

Because in terms of social connections etc, it's far more like white collar crime where the authorities do often prefer to negotiate than to go to court. It would be extremely embarrassing for TDs and judges to have to convict men who were often honoured guests at their weddings and baptisms etc. As well as the difficulty of taking on the Vatican with its countless millions and quasi-monopoly over the required documentation needed to prove the crimes.

It's the perfect crime, when you think of it - get your criminal organisation into every aspect of a country's life, running the schools and hospitals and orphanages and keeping the paper trail as well. It's like giving the mafia charitable status and naming them officlal state registrars as well.

Sycamore Tree · 21-08-2018 09:18AM

Edgware wrote: »

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Holy Father should be welcomed. This witch hunt against the Catholic Church is dangerous. If Ireland were to enter a destabilizing period of geopolitics brought on by a great depression, there are people who would blame the Catholic church. My suggestion to Catholics who feel intimidated by these people would be to consider Orthodoxy as it is very close to Catholicism and like the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Churches can reasonably claim to have been founded by Christ.

The visit should be extended and become a yearly event

I agree. I think his visits would always highlight and remind us about the hypocrisy and cowardice in this country towards the Roman Catholic organisation.

Sycamore Tree · 21-08-2018 10:05AM

A good point on the radio earlier. The church are always apologising for child abuse scandals found by civil investigations but why have the Roman organisation themselves never published an investigation they did themselves to root out child abusers? Any normal organisation would have internal inquiries to uncover rot within their own organisation.

volchitsa · 21-08-2018 10:26AM

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

A good point on the radio earlier. The church are always apologising for child abuse scandals found by civil investigations but why have the Roman organisation themselves never published an investigation they did themselves to root out child abusers? Any normal organisation would have internal inquiries to uncover rot within their own organisation.

Because it's all about secrecy and keeping it all in-house. They have no intention of cooperating with the authorities. Never have had, and much to my disappointment, I now think Francis is just a more media-friendly blocker, but still a blocker. That's what he's there for, nothing more.

RustyNut · 21-08-2018 10:26AM

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

A good point on the radio earlier. The church are always apologising for child abuse scandals found by civil investigations but why have the Roman organisation themselves never published an investigation they did themselves to root out child abusers? Any normal organisation would have internal inquiries to uncover rot within their own organisation.

They are like any other criminal organisation, they cover-up anything they can, they obstruct any independent investigation and occasionally throw the odd sacrificial lamb to the lions when they have been exposed anyway. They then pay lip service to the people about doing the right thing and justice and fairness, then carry on as before.

Ignore what they say and look at what they do.

Actions speak louder than words.

Leroy42 · 21-08-2018 10:37AM

So h is the statement from the Pope yesterday what he really means, or is it the statement he made recently in Chile about victims simply looking to slander the church.

Two very different perspectives. Which one to take as the truth, or indeed why even pay any attention to either.

Hotblack Desiato · 21-08-2018 10:37AM

work wrote: »

Sorry nobody can answer this question easily but I do think it is explainable as due to a combination of reasons:
1) Most in power, legal political rtf, in Ireland were indoctrinated in the CC cult and really struggle to fight it.
2) The Garda are understaffed and dysfunctional with a poor history with whistleblowers.
3) Politicians are mostly looking after themselves and up to this point would have felt there are more votes in supporting the church. This may finally change. When a gay Leo welcomes a homophobic cult leader to the country we really have issues.
I can keep going but it is late. You are right to ask and it is disgusting to think people just are not pursued this but the societal deference to the CC and general policing and legal dysfunction is staggering which has allowed no prosecutions.

(4) Statute of Limitations
(5) Believe it or not, failing to report child abuse was not a crime until, I think, the 1990s - possibly even later.

Leroy42 · 21-08-2018 10:41AM

Add to that that historic cases of abuse are very difficult to convict on. First off the victim needs to want to go through all that again.
2nd the priest may not still be alive
Records not available
Many of the victims were in homes/care and as such the records reside in the church, who can easily block access.

I do think that religion continues to carry quite a significant weight in many countries. Taking on the CC is going to cost quite a lot of votes. They are expecting 500k at this event, that is quite a lot of potential voters who seem ok with the CC as it stands. This things are political.

The fact that Leo is welcoming an organisation that treats him as a sinner and going to spend eternity in hell, shows that the CC is still a powerful political force.

Don't be fooled by this new gentler exterior that it is now showing. The CC is simply trying to show a better PR spin. Fundamentally they haven't changed

Water John · 21-08-2018 11:30AM

Very good article in today's Irish Examiner by Fergus Finlay as to why he'll be at the Garden of Rememberance.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/fergus-finlay/instead-of-cheering-pope-in-phoenix-park-we-should-stand-with-peggy-473160.html

This docu was on last Sat. My wife heard it in the car and switched it on in the house when she got home.

People should note that people were not always cowed but challenged this Canon and broke into their church.
The woman at the centre of this is still alive in a nursing home.

Sycamore Tree · 21-08-2018 11:42AM

Water John wrote: »

Very good article in today's Irish Examiner by Fergus Finlay as to why he'll be at the Garden of Rememberance.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/fergus-finlay/instead-of-cheering-pope-in-phoenix-park-we-should-stand-with-peggy-473160.html

This docu was on last Sat. My wife heard it in the car and switched it on in the house when she got home.

People should note that people were not always cowed but challenged this Canon and broke into their church.
The woman at the centre of this is still alive in a nursing home.

That is an utterly heartbreaking story. Terrible.

I can nearly hear the old women on Joe Duffy trying to rationalise their viewpoints by saying 'ah leave it in the past, different times, a few bad eggs'.

We need to face up to these crimes against humanity. I am glad we are getting constant reminders but people are still unwilling to listen or learn.

realitykeeper · 21-08-2018 01:19PM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I love the continuous use of the phrase 'witch hunt', as if the Catholic church is some kind of victim being persecuted. What the church did was horrendous. Crimes carried out by priests and covered up by bishops some of whom climbed the ranks to cardinal.

It took decades for the truth to finally be spoken and to be listened to. And now there is an attempt to brush it under the carpet and let by gones be by gones. Child sex abuse is too awful to let go that easily.

No one wanted these stories to be true, no one wanted it to be as extensive as it was, because that meant at the heart of it was another child who suffered. Not to mention it would mean the system we had dedicated so much time and awe to, was brutally flawed.

Since you love the continuous use of the phrase witch hunt, I will repeat it. This witch hunt against the Catholic Church is dangerous.

Auguste Comte · 21-08-2018 01:24PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Since you love the continuous use of the phrase witch hunt, I will repeat it. This witch hunt against the Catholic Church is dangerous.

Witches, wizards, priests, not much difference really.

It's only dangerous to the catholic church and the criminal sex offenders they are hiding.

It will help to protect innocent children into the future.

WinnyThePoo · 21-08-2018 01:26PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Since you love the continuous use of the phrase witch hunt, I will repeat it. This witch hunt against the Catholic Church is dangerous.

Ironic username.

4068ac1elhodqr · 21-08-2018 01:32PM

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Witches, wizards, priests, not much difference really.

All involved in sacrifice of the young in one way or another.

Only the ancient Mayans and Aztecs used to do it with more gusto and public performance from their temples in Mesoamerica.

realitykeeper · 21-08-2018 01:35PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Is it a witch hunt when the witches are actually real in this case? Also claiming its a witch fund suggests there's no truth to the problems. .

The abuses happened, that is factual.

When the abuses came to public attention the Vatican went into deny mode, they even called victims liars, yet they knew what happened, that is factual.

The Vatican have records of the abuses, that is factual.

The Vatican wrote the rules to cover up abuse, that is factual.

The previous pope had knowledge of abuse in the church due to his prev role, that is factual.

At every chance the church has done its best to avoid liability to victims and to not pay out compensation, that is factual.

The Vatican has refused to provide its abuse records to, Ireland, Australia, Germany etc and even the UN, that is factual.

Abuse victims working with the Vatican have said they (the Vatican) are not doing enough to allow change, that is factual.

Yet, apparently its a witch hunt in your strange world. .
anything to deflect from the church eh?

Fact is all well and good provided it is not twisted, distorted, contorted, magnified, misplaced, manipulated, selective, misrepresented or otherwise misconstrued. I have no doubt there are elements of truth here and there in Mein Kampf, but did that book represent truth and fact on a reasonable and unbiased basis? Hardly.

The term witch hunt is a commonly used phrase these days but it hardly ever pertains to a witch hunt literally. If every expression were literal, there would be a lot more people literally opening cans of worms, either that or everyone would speak like a robot.

ohnonotgmail · 21-08-2018 01:43PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Fact is all well and good provided it is not twisted, distorted, contorted, magnified, misplaced, manipulated, selective, misrepresented or otherwise misconstrued. I have no doubt there are elements of truth here and there in Mein Kampf, but did that book represent truth and fact on a reasonable and unbiased basis? Hardly.

The term witch hunt is a commonly used phrase these days but it hardly ever pertains to a witch hunt literally. If every expression were literal, there would be a lot more people literally opening cans of worms, either that or everyone would speak like a robot.

you could say the same thing about your posts.

realitykeeper · 21-08-2018 01:48PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Witch Hunt evokes images of falsely accused

That is quite clearly not the case here

What is quite clear is how wrong you are. Demands are now being made to break laws in order to name and shame priests against whom there are allegations. Given that one is innocent until proven guilty, this is the very definition of a witch hunt as evoked by the images you describe.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/call-to-name-and-shame-abusive-clergy-863481.html

Should everyone and anyone against whom any allegation about anything is made, now be named and shamed publicly. By those standards there`s not a single person in the country who would escape public disgrace based entirely on allegations.

ohnonotgmail · 21-08-2018 01:50PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

What is quite clear is how wrong you are. Demands are now being made to break laws in order to name and shame priests against whom there are allegations. Given that one is innocent until proven guilty, this is the very definition of a witch hunt as evoked by the images you describe.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/call-to-name-and-shame-abusive-clergy-863481.html

much better to just ignore the whole situation, eh? pretend none of this ever happened.

batgoat · 21-08-2018 01:53PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

What is quite clear is how wrong you are. Demands are now being made to break laws in order to name and shame priests against whom there are allegations. Given that one is innocent until proven guilty, this is the very definition of a witch hunt as evoked by the images you describe.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/call-to-name-and-shame-abusive-clergy-863481.html

Maybe this situation would never have arisen if the church had actually reported the crimes? But instead you're making this about the poor church and they're really the victims... Everything goes back to, the church intentionally made it impossible to investigate.

Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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