Should we protest against the pope's visit?

4068ac1elhodqr · 20-08-2018 03:54PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Not a bad idea, and the same for teachers who have a long association with child abuse.
It is worth mentioning that allegations post 2002 are extremely so the abusers were people were trained a long time ago. Kids are much more supervised now so the risk of clerical abuse is a lot less, so from a scientific point of view it is really hard to know if current training provides adequent screening.

Good to see you agree it's a good idea for immediate and continous 'biological-reponse testing' of all clerics. Teachers too, certainly and why not.

Priests/Clergy often have more opportunities than any other profession. Whether it's through school meetings and supervision (not packed classes), home visits, church attendences, sunday schools, all sacraments (and preperation for), confessions, altar boys etc.etc.

In the developing world none of the more modern structures are in place. Brazil and most of South America can barely police itself, Africa can just about feed itself and is awash with corruption. Asia is a mixed bag and the rest of the world may have various different policies or practices of supervision.

RustyNut · 20-08-2018 03:56PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

If solving problems was that simple I would agree with you. We all would, but it is not. I like your empathy but not the utopianism.

It is that simple, not easy for the church but it is simple.

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Who though and ? Removing people at the stroke of a pen doesnt really leave time for fair unbiased process. Church officals to act against abusers and many have been laicized, even years before it was a big media issue. The question of how to deal with cover ups and inaction is far more morally murky.

The catholic church are most certainly not the people to be applying a fair unbiased process when it comes to investigating sex offenders that are core members of the same organisation, the suggestion is just silly.

The pope has the option today to command every cardinal and bishop to hand over any information they hold on individual members that suggests that they might be sex offenders and let the independent authorities investigate and apply a fair unbiased process, to do as he continues to do and refuse to do this makes him complicit in any offences that go otherwise undetected.

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 04:06PM

RustyNut wrote: »

An_Toirpin wrote: »

If solving problems was that simple I would agree with you. We all would, but it is not. I like your empathy but not the utopianism.

It is that simple, not easy for the church but it is simple.

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Who though and ? Removing people at the stroke of a pen doesnt really leave time for fair unbiased process. Church officals to act against abusers and many have been laicized, even years before it was a big media issue. The question of how to deal with cover ups and inaction is far more morally murky.

The catholic church are most certainly not the people to be applying a fair unbiased process when it comes to investigating sex offenders that are core members of the same organisation, the suggestion is just silly.

The pope has the option today to command every cardinal and bishop to hand over any information they hold on individual members that suggests that they might be sex offenders and let the independent authorities investigate and apply a fair unbiased process, to do as he continues to do and refuse to do this makes him complicit in any offences that go otherwise undetected.

There has been numerous statements urging full cooperation with civil authorities. Where do you get your news?

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 04:08PM

Omar Orange Ignoramus wrote: »

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Not a bad idea, and the same for teachers who have a long association with child abuse.
It is worth mentioning that allegations post 2002 are extremely so the abusers were people were trained a long time ago. Kids are much more supervised now so the risk of clerical abuse is a lot less, so from a scientific point of view it is really hard to know if current training provides adequent screening.

Good to see you agree it's a good idea for immediate and continous 'biological-reponse testing' of all clerics. Teachers too, certainly and why not.

Priests/Clergy often have more opportunities than any other profession. Whether it's through school meetings and supervision (not packed classes), home visits, church attendences, sunday schools, all sacraments (and preperation for), confessions, altar boys etc.etc.

In the developing world none of the more modern structures are in place. Brazil and most of South America can barely police itself, Africa can just about feed itself and is awash with corruption. Asia is a mixed bag and the rest of the world may have various different policies or practices of supervision.

Priests in Ireland dont really have much contact anymore that makes them particularly able to explit but they used to. But you are right, the environment a is a major factor. Look at all PE teachers and coaches who were/are high risk too.

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 04:09PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

There has been numerous statements urging full cooperation with civil authorities. Where do you get your news?

Yet we constantly see that there is far less than "full co-operation " happening in practice. The truth of the matter is that the church still considers its practices, precedents, oaths and so on to be its primary point of reference, and any talk of "coperation" has to be read in that light.

B0jangles · 20-08-2018 04:13PM

Odhinn wrote: »

Yet we constantly see that there is far less than "full co-operation " happening in practice. The truth of the matter is that the church still considers its practices, precedents, oaths and so on to be its primary point of reference, and any talk of "coperation" has to be read in that light.

When you have an organisation that encodes the idea of a 'Mental Reservation' into its rules, you simply cannot trust it to tell the truth.

They believe they have access and obligations to a Higher Truth, to Higher Laws.

They cannot be trusted.

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 04:16PM

Odhinn wrote: »

An_Toirpin wrote: »

There has been numerous statements urging full cooperation with civil authorities. Where do you get your news?

Yet we constantly see that there is far less than "full co-operation " happening in practice. The truth of the matter is that the church still considers its practices, precedents, oaths and so on to be its primary point of reference, and any talk of "coperation" has to be read in that light.

It is very easy for a critic to demand for the church to empty its records, and failing this acccuse her of inaction, but unless one actually know about specific records it is a pretty cynical attack. Why are we to believe there is critical evidence being buried? How can we just assume it exists?

RustyNut · 20-08-2018 04:18PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

There has been numerous statements urging full cooperation with civil authorities. Where do you get your news?

Actions speak louder than weasel words.

Vatican has never co-operated with Irish inquiries into clerical child sex abuse
Church has pattern of withholding relevant documents from Irish State abuse inquiries

4068ac1elhodqr · 20-08-2018 04:21PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Priests in Ireland dont really have much contact anymore that makes them particularly able to explit but they used to. But you are right, the environment a is a major factor. Look at all PE teachers and coaches who were/are high risk too.

Currently, they have less freedom than previous but nothing is impossible.
The rest of the world is in various states many countries riddled with poverty and corruption, Ireland is much less than 1% of the world.

But teachers aren't assigned with spiritual elevation.

And on that point, would you agree that the church is ridddled with the influence of Satan himself (well assuming there is such a thing)?

Afterall the RCC would be his natural target, yes? Again assuming if there is a god or light, then there must also be darkness (as per 99% of religions).

Any priest 'weak of mind' would thus be the ultimate focus for evil to enter, and flourish. Hence the high incidence rate, and so need for extra ordinary effort needed to stop this leprosy and theft of young souls.

Much like the Holywood movies, there is a battle between dark and light, in the RCC darkness might have an upper hand?

RustyNut · 20-08-2018 04:22PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

It is very easy for a critic to demand for the church to empty its records, and failing this acccuse her of inaction, but unless one actually know about specific records it is a pretty cynical attack. Why are we to believe there is critical evidence being buried? How can we just assume it exists?

No assumptions.

Neither the Murphy or Cloyne commissions were provided with documents sent to Rome in 2001 from both dioceses dealing with credible allegations of clerical child sexual abuse.

Then there was the Ferns inquiry, set up in March 2003. In summer 2005 it had completed a draft report when a woman came forward alleging abuse by a priest of the diocese.

The inquiry team had not heard of this priest and inquired of then administrator of the diocese Bishop mon Walsh whether there was anything in their files on him. There was, but it has not been handed over.

Blind faith indeed.

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 04:26PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

It is very easy for a critic to demand for the church to empty its records, and failing this acccuse her of inaction, but unless one actually know about specific records it is a pretty cynical attack. Why are we to believe there is critical evidence being buried? How can we just assume it exists?

Because it seems to turn up in the long run, because it seems to be the churchs default behaviour that its believes its first obligation are to its own members, even recently, as shown by another poster there.

Water John · 20-08-2018 04:28PM

There are files or information on these priests. Toirpin stop codding us. Go and have a look at the film Spotlight. The Dioscean records has such priests marked down with various code words.
The US stats are that 6% of priests were abusers.

Taytoland · 20-08-2018 04:28PM

The Church just cover it up, go to confession, keep it behind closed doors, don't say anything, it will harm our "message". That is the mentality of the Catholic Church. I have given examples of this before on here in which Priests knew another Priest was an abuser and kept his picture up on the wall until it got out to the mainstream.

That is not normal and it's not just a tiny minority, it's the whole ethics behind the organization and the shrug of the shoulders or blase attitude to it, hundreds if not thousands of Irish children for decades beaten senseless, raped and so on. The evidence on it is now overwhelming.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 20-08-2018 04:35PM

Evil forces are gathering..

On the way home from work & I took this photo.

Its hard to describe the size of the works in the Pheonix Park for the Catholic Grand Wizard to cast spells over the flock on the 26th.

Lock up your children.

work · 20-08-2018 04:35PM

we need to stand up to them and only then can they be removed from our state.

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 04:37PM

Calvin Puny Marmoset wrote: »

....................

Lock up your children.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv0m1B-5p3E

Taytoland · 20-08-2018 04:41PM

[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Fr Seamus Reid, who died in 2001, was not a teacher but did visit the school.[/font]
[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]In 2015 the Catholic church confirmed that a catalogue of allegations had been made against the priest.[/font]
[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]In February, it came to light that Fr Malachy Finegan, who taught at St Colman's from 1967 to 1976, had sexually abused pupils.[/font]

[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Towards the end of 2017 [/font][font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]the school's Board of Governors was informed that the Diocese of Dromore had reached a settlement with one of Fr Finegan's 12 victims[/font][font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif].[/font]

[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]It has also been claimed that Fr Seamus Reid travelled around different schools to abuse children, including St Joseph's School in Newry.[/font]

[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]A victim, who was a pupil at St Joseph's in the 1960s, spoke anonymously to the Nolan show.[/font]
[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]He said: "(Fr Reid) would come round the classes and take people into a storeroom off each classroom for what he called confessions and that's where the sexual abuse happened.[/font]
[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"For the first few times you were made special and he would sit in the chair and you would kneel down between his legs.[/font]
[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"As time went on he'd take your hand and put it on his private parts.[/font]
[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"As more time would come on he would take you up on his knee and take your private parts out.[/font]
[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"At 11 years of age I didn't know what sex was.[/font]
[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"All I could do was smell the smoke off him - his stubby beard rubbing in my face where he'd be hugging you.[/font]
[font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"Being a child you didn't know what was going on, but you knew it wasn't right."[/font]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43428021

Pelvis · 20-08-2018 04:43PM

Calvin Puny Marmoset wrote: »

Evil forces are gathering..

On the way home from work & I took this photo.

Its hard to describe the size of the works in the Pheonix Park for the Catholic Grand Wizard to cast spells over the flock on the 26th.

Lock up your children.

That stage looks familiar, will they be giving out a Golden Cleric award?

arybvtcw0eolkf · 20-08-2018 04:58PM

Odhinn wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv0m1B-5p3E

I love that clip, but the end gives me the chills (seriously).

I went to a Christian Brothers school (it was named in the Ferns report), and believe me those cunts were a shower of bastards with the strap.

erica74 · 20-08-2018 05:00PM

I hope that the media give equal coverage to any and every protest that takes place during the pope's €32 million holiday in Ireland.

ohnonotgmail · 20-08-2018 05:04PM

Calvin Puny Marmoset wrote: »

Evil forces are gathering..

On the way home from work & I took this photo.

Its hard to describe the size of the works in the Pheonix Park for the Catholic Grand Wizard to cast spells over the flock on the 26th.

Lock up your children.

Nice bike.

Hannibal_Smith · 20-08-2018 05:04PM

ittakestwo wrote: »

In the same way people go to football matchs because they like football. People go to mass because they like being preached too. Most priests are not corrupt and would thought if people did know of a corrupt priest they would boycott the mass.

And in your example how could anybody trust a referee descion in a fifa world cup match?

How is that the same as covering did a paedophile? Referees probably can't be trusted but they're telling you how football should be played, bit of a difference to the preaching of a priest!

Hannibal_Smith · 20-08-2018 05:12PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It is true. I’ve already explained why I’m going to the park, I’m not going to keep repeating myself.

By repeatedly saying I support the church hierarchy, which bar the Pope himself I don’t, you by extension say I’m supporting what they did. That’s where the problem is.

Tbh Audrey, you're twisting and turning a lot which is where the confusion is coming from, for me anyway. You don't believe in the church because of its bad teachings, just in god, so you don't go to mass. But you're not boycotting mass as such, just too hungover to go, but you're not really hung over, only messing. But you're going to the biggest mass with the biggest church hitters, who are down a couple of numbers because of recent allegations, but sure hopefully the rest there on Sunday will be grand!

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 05:27PM

RustyNut wrote: »

An_Toirpin wrote: »

It is very easy for a critic to demand for the church to empty its records, and failing this acccuse her of inaction, but unless one actually know about specific records it is a pretty cynical attack. Why are we to believe there is critical evidence being buried? How can we just assume it exists?

No assumptions.

Neither the Murphy or Cloyne commissions were provided with documents sent to Rome in 2001 from both dioceses dealing with credible allegations of clerical child sexual abuse.

Then there was the Ferns inquiry, set up in March 2003. In summer 2005 it had completed a draft report when a woman came forward alleging abuse by a priest of the diocese.

The inquiry team had not heard of this priest and inquired of then administrator of the diocese Bishop mon Walsh whether there was anything in their files on him. There was, but it has not been handed over.

Blind faith indeed.

Faith. I am a rationalist but just because I disagree you accuse me of faith. You have yet to prove your claim. How do we know files were sent or concerned abuse allegations. Further, efforts have been much more comprehenisve since 13 years ago.

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 05:29PM

Taytoland wrote: »

The Church just cover it up, go to confession, keep it behind closed doors, don't say anything, it will harm our "message". That is the mentality of the Catholic Church. I have given examples of this before on here in which Priests knew another Priest was an abuser and kept his picture up on the wall until it got out to the mainstream.

That is not normal and it's not just a tiny minority, it's the whole ethics behind the organization and the shrug of the shoulders or blase attitude to it, hundreds if not thousands of Irish children for decades beaten senseless, raped and so on. The evidence on it is now overwhelming.

Water John wrote: »

There are files or information on these priests. Toirpin stop codding us. Go and have a look at the film Spotlight. The Dioscean records has such priests marked down with various code words.
The US stats are that 6% of priests were abusers.

Look, when did I say there was no records or that there was no cover up. The claim being made is that there is large amounts of records of unknown abusers who abused unknown victims.

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 05:30PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Faith. I am a rationalist but just because I disagree you accuse me of faith. You have yet to prove your claim. How do we know files were sent or concerned abuse allegations. Further, efforts have been much more comprehenisve since 13 years ago.

He did with that very link.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/vatican-has-never-co-operated-with-irish-inquiries-into-clerical-child-sex-abuse-1.3588073?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Freligion-and-beliefs%2Fvatican-has-never-co-operated-with-irish-inquiries-into-clerical-child-sex-abuse-1.3588073

Not to mention the latest farce to come to light
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/08/14/pennsylvania-grand-jury-report-on-sex-abuse-in-catholic-church-will-list-hundreds-of-accused-predator-priests/?utm_term=.bf214665692b

ricero · 20-08-2018 05:31PM

Gotta say i am loving all the salty liberal atheist tears over the Popes visit. Can imagine the outrage over the weekend and early next week :pac: People need to get over themselves and realize that the catholic faith is still a strong part of this countries identity.

Hopefully Pope Francis will discuss and issue apologies for the scandals that have occurred within Ireland and that reconciliation can begin. We all need to move forward.

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 05:34PM

ricero wrote: »

Gotta say i am loving all the salty liberal atheist tears over the Popes visit. Can imagine the outrage over the weekend and early next week :pac: People need to get over themselves and realize that the catholic faith is still a strong part of this countries identity.

Hopefully Pope Francis will discuss and issue apologies for the scandals that have occurred within Ireland and that reconciliation can begin. We all need to move forward.

Jaysus forbid that people be angry at decades of abuse and hypocrisy by some shower that claim to speak for god.

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 05:35PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Odhinn wrote: »

Yet we constantly see that there is far less than "full co-operation " happening in practice. The truth of the matter is that the church still considers its practices, precedents, oaths and so on to be its primary point of reference, and any talk of "coperation" has to be read in that light.

When you have an organisation that encodes the idea of a 'Mental Reservation' into its rules, you simply cannot trust it to tell the truth.

They believe they have access and obligations to a Higher Truth, to Higher Laws.

They cannot be trusted.

Look, I love debate and I love frank discussion but sometimes posts make be realise the level of education is not so high here. Mental reservation has been considered a form of lying by the church since the 1700s. Yes bad people used that excuse to claim justification in the 20th cen but it is still encoded in church teaching as a lie. It may be justified if a Nazis comes knocking on your door looking for Jews but not to protect child abusers.

Discodog · 20-08-2018 05:36PM

Eric Savory Misogyny wrote: »

So we should assume that every priest is a paedophile?

No but we can assume that the vast majority knew, aided & abetted in the psychological, physical & sexual abuse of children. The only innocent ones are those who went straight to the police.

Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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