Should we protest against the pope's visit?

Fighting Tao · 19-08-2018 10:22PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It’s obvious we’re never going to agree so let’s leave it there.

I’ll respectfully ask you again to stop making assertions about what I do and don’t support. I’m not homophobic nor do I think child abuse is ok or any of the horrible acts the church committed for that matter and I’d appreciate it if you’d stop suggesting otherwise.

I never said you were homophobic or that you approve of child abuse. Please stop making things up. I stated that by going you are supporting and validating the RCC and therefore giving them the nod that everything is ay okay with them.

work · 19-08-2018 10:24PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

work wrote: »

so you completely don't support the church due to the paedophilia, subsequent cover up+++, hate of gays and children out of wedlock BUT you will go as something to look back on and because of your faith (belief in something with no basis or evidence). How can you sell that to yourself it seems insane logic.....??

I’m not seeing the problem to be honest - I’m going because of my faith not the organization, how hard is that to understand.

If it makes anyone here feel any better know that I struggled for a long tome with my faith and I even try to make myself not believe because sometimes you feel like a criminal for saying you believe in god. But no matter how hard I tried I just couldn’t not believe.

I didn’t get to where I am without a lot of hard thinking and worrying about how I’d be perceived in modern day Ireland. I’m not a sheep or an apologist. I’m just who has great faith and who won’t let a few evil individuals turn her away from that.

If that angers, upsets or in way bothers people here I can only apologize but I can’t change it.

In all fairness I applaud your strength to stand up to the posts being levelled at you. I also cannot agree ever, to me it is like saying I don't support the killing of need but otherwise support the Nazi party. Sorry for the crude analogy but the crimes if the church are getting that bad. You say you do not support the organisation so why not have faith at home or with another less evil organisation.

AudreyHepburn · 19-08-2018 10:25PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

I never said you were homophobic or that you think child abuse is ok. Please stop making things up. I stated that by going you are supporting and validating the RCC.

And thereby supporting all the evil things they’ve done which I have made clear that I do not.

As I said let’s agree to disagree. I don’t want to cause anymore annoyance or anger, it really wasn’t my intent.

I came here to be part of the discussion not upset or anger anyone.

Fighting Tao · 19-08-2018 10:26PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

And thereby supporting all the evil things they’ve done which I have made clear that I do not.

As I said let’s agree to disagree. I don’t want to cause anymore annoyance or anger, it really wasn’t my intent.

I came here to be part of the discussion not upset or anger anyone.

I’m not one bit annoyed. Maybe others are but not me. Just part of the discussion.

murpho999 · 19-08-2018 10:26PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It’s not as black and white as you would like it to be I’m afraid. I don’t need the church and never said otherwise. But my faith is important to me and it’s that that I’ll celebrate on Sunday. My faith not the organization. .

If you don''t need the church then why do you need to celebrate your faith, that you say has completely different viewpoints you on certain issues, with the leader of the organistaion?

Makes no sense to me.

I’m not homophobic nor do I agree with child abuse, shaming unwed mothers or any other accusation you care to level at me and I’d appreciate if you didn’t make such assertions.

You're twisting words.
I never sad that you agree wih child abuse, shaming unwed mothers or any other accusations.
I did say that if you''re attending an official event organised by the church, which we both agree has bad policies, rules and attitudes to these issues, then you're endorsing a church and its viewpoint.
That is totally contradictory imho.

eviltwin · 19-08-2018 10:26PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It’s obvious we’re never going to agree so let’s leave it there.

I’ll respectfully ask you again to stop making assertions about what I do and don’t support. I’m not homophobic nor do I think child abuse is ok or any of the horrible acts the church committed for that matter and I’d appreciate it if you’d stop suggesting otherwise.

A lot of the people you are going to see are involved in the cover up of child abuse, have activity sought to bury any restitution to victims. Many are actively anti gay, anti women's autonomy. I don't believe for one moment you condone it but you're not exactly condemning it either by attending. I just can't understand how you can compartmentalize like that. I don't know how people can stand to be in the same space as those people.

Eta I'm not trying to guilt you or make you feel bad and if it means that much to you of course you should go. I'm just interested in how people are able to park their horror of the abuse to go receive mass from people who continue to endorse it and facilitate it.

AudreyHepburn · 19-08-2018 10:28PM

work wrote: »

In all fairness I applaud your strength to stand up to the posts being levelled at you. I also cannot agree ever, to me it is like saying I don't support the killing of need but otherwise support the Nazi party. Sorry for the crude analogy but the crimes if the church are getting that bad. You say you do not support the organisation so why not have faith at home or with another less evil organisation.

Why should I let a few evil individuals turn me away from my faith?

I’ll say again that I really struggled with this and still do but ultimately my faith and beliefs are what they are and all I can do is apologize again for annoyance I’ve caused here.

donspeekinglesh · 19-08-2018 10:31PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Why should I let a few evil individuals turn me away from my faith?

Your belief in god does not need to be tied to the catholic church.

AudreyHepburn · 19-08-2018 10:33PM

eviltwin wrote: »

A lot of the people you are going to see are involved in the cover up of child abuse, have activity sought to bury any restitution to victims. Many are actively anti gay, anti women's autonomy. I don't believe for one moment you condone it but you're not exactly condemning it either by attending. I just can't understand how you can compartmentalize like that. I don't know how people can stand to be in the same space as those people.

Eta I'm not trying to guilt you or make you feel bad and if it means that much to you of course you should go. I'm just interested in how people are able to park their horror of the abuse to go receive mass from people who continue to endorse it and facilitate it.

It feels like a guilt trip a lot of the time to be honest whether or not that’s your own or anyone else’s intent.

I suppose it’s about accepting and understanding that not very single solitary member of the church is evil personified and wanting to show support to all the good men and women who are unfairly maligned.

To be honest I keep second guessing myself on this thread and wonder if I should be going at all. But I can’t help what I believe. Like I said I tried to stop but it just didn’t feel right.

volchitsa · 19-08-2018 10:33PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Why should I let a few evil individuals turn me away from my faith?

I’ll say again that I really struggled with this and still do but ultimately my faith and beliefs are what they are and all I can do is apologize again for annoyance I’ve caused here.

Because the scandal wasn't just the abusers - it was that not one priest or bishop who learned of the abuse went to the police with a name, and that seems to be true for the church worldwide, not just in Ireland. That looks like a policy, and not just a few evil individuals who managed not to get caught.

AudreyHepburn · 19-08-2018 10:33PM

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Your belief in god does not need to be tied to the catholic church.

I never said that it did.

eviltwin · 19-08-2018 10:36PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It feels like a guilt trip a lot of the time to be honest whether or not that’s your own or anyone else’s intent.

I suppose it’s about accepting and understanding that not very single solitary member of the church is evil personified and wanting to show support to all the good men and women who are unfairly maligned.

Why not show support with the victims?

AudreyHepburn · 19-08-2018 10:38PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Why not show support with the victims?

What gives you the idea that I don’t support them? Of course I do.

Again just because I’m going to the park doesn’t mean I think what happened was ok. I think it was disgusting.

Like I said I’m sorry my beliefs offend anyone here and that includes any of you who were victims and rest assured I do not support or agree with what happened.

timthumbni · 19-08-2018 10:41PM

Audrey. Why in God’s name would you support a man who is now the head of one of the worlds biggest ever paedophile scandals. It’s not just the fact that so many priests abused kids. All organisations and walks of life have paedophiles. It’s the blatant lies and cover ups that the rcc have been involved in that’s the worst. Shame on anyone who supports them..

eviltwin · 19-08-2018 10:43PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

What gives you the idea that I don’t support them? Of course I do.

Again just because I’m going to the park doesn’t mean I think what happened was ok. I think it was disgusting.

There is a gathering for victims and survivors happening at the same time. Why not attend that instead and actually show your support. I get your point about innocent clergy and agree they need to be remembered but I think the victims need it more. This is a tough week for a lot of people, it's bringing back painful memories. The optics of this are important. A massive show of support is worth more than platitudes

volchitsa · 19-08-2018 10:45PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

What gives you the idea that I don’t support them? Of course I do.

Again just because I’m going to the park doesn’t mean I think what happened was ok. I think it was disgusting.

What about the subsequent, and ongoing, cover up? How can you imagine you're not condoning that with your presence at the park? If someone now went to a concert by Ian Watkins, that singer who turned out to be a paedophile, knowing that, because they thought his music is so good, would you really think that was perfectly okay to do and not supporting him over his victims at all? I wouldn't.

AudreyHepburn · 19-08-2018 10:51PM

I’m going to bow out now - this is an emotive topic and I don’t there will ever be a day where we all find common ground. At least not for a very long time.

There’s not point in treading over the same ground again and again. I’ve said all I can say, I can’t change what I believe and no matter how much I try to explain my position there will be those who simply will not understand.

If I have offended or annoyed anyone particularly anyone who has suffered at the church’s hands then I apologize. It wasn’t my intent and please don’t anyone think I don’t support the survivors to the hilt. I do and I hope those responsible are punished to the fullest extent.

Fighting Tao · 19-08-2018 10:55PM

The head of any organisation would cancel all plans to deal any ongoing scandals. Why is the pope not handling Pennsylvania directly rather than travelling to Ireland? How come he is hiding from it?

People who go are supporting his choice to avoid what is happening in the US in his organisation. They are supporting his avoidance of the issue. They are supporting him in his protection of the clergy involved in the US and in the protection of the RCC.

eviltwin · 19-08-2018 10:58PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’m going to bow out now - this is an emotive topic and I don’t there will ever be a day where we all find common ground. At least not for a very long time.

There’s not point in treading over the same ground again and again. I’ve said all I can say, I can’t change what I believe and no matter how much I try to explain my position there will be those who simply will not understand.

If I have offended or annoyed anyone particularly anyone who has suffered at the church’s hands then I apologize. It wasn’t my intent and please don’t anyone think I don’t support the survivors to the hilt. I do and I hope those responsible are punished to the fullest extent.

Talk is cheap Audrey. You've shown where your loyalty lies. Enjoy your day.

volchitsa · 19-08-2018 11:00PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

The head of any organisation would cancel all plans to deal any ongoing scandals. Why is the pope not handling Pennsylvania directly rather than travelling to Ireland? How come he is hiding from it?

People who go are supporting his choice to avoid what is happening in the US in his organisation. They are supporting his avoidance of the issue. They are supporting him in his protection of the clergy involved in the US and in the protection of the RCC.

Yes, this. The pope just goes on with his plans as though more child abuse coming to light were just another minor hiccup. Because he has no intention of doing anything at all.

And if some people are determined to let him do that, the rest of us are equally entitled to point out how unacceptable it is to let him away with it.

volchitsa · 19-08-2018 11:05PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Oh get off your pedestal - you know nothing of me or my loyalties so don’t pretend you do.

But we do, we know that you are prepared to condone Pope Francis' decision to ignore the latest child abuse scandal and go on with his previous plans. Do you think the abuse doesn't matter more than his planned visit to Ireland? That is what he thinks, obviously, and anyone who goes to see him in Ireland is telnet him, and the victims, that they think so too.

eviltwin · 19-08-2018 11:07PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Oh get off your pedestal - you know nothing of me or my loyalties so don’t pretend you do.

I've earned my place on a pedestal Audrey. I went through years of sexual assault and rape at the hands of a priest along with others. At least two of those who should be there on Sunday won't be because they couldn't deal with it anymore. I've never got justice and never will because that person was shielded until his death by the very people who will be on that stage on Sunday. Forgive me if the entire spectacle is upsetting and infuriating. But that's my sh1t to deal with not yours. I sincerely hope you enjoy Sunday and get what you want from it. I just don't understand it.

Fighting Tao · 19-08-2018 11:08PM

AudreyHepburn wrote:

Oh get off your pedestal - you know nothing of me or my loyalties so don’t pretend you do

Did you type that while in your high horse? :pac:

AudreyHepburn · 19-08-2018 11:13PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I've earned my place on a pedestal Audrey. I went through years of sexual assault and rape at the hands of a priest along with others. At least two of those who should be there on Sunday won't be because they couldn't deal with it anymore. I've never got justice and never will because that person was shielded until his death by the very people who will be on that stage on Sunday. Forgive me if the entire spectacle is upsetting and infuriating. But that's my sh1t to deal with not yours. I sincerely hope you enjoy Sunday and get what you want from it. I just don't understand it.

I’m sorry to hear that and please please believe me when I say I think what happened to you and others was disgusting and that those responsible deserve to be punished painfully and over a long drawn out period of time.

I appreciate your feelings towards the mass and I really honestly didn’t intend to cause you any pain or upset.

Now I really do feel terrible. I’m sorry.

AudreyHepburn · 19-08-2018 11:15PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Did you type that while in your high horse? :pac:

I wasn’t aware I was on one but if that’s the impression I gave I apologize.

vicwatson · 19-08-2018 11:17PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’m going to bow out now - this is an emotive topic and I don’t there will ever be a day where we all find common ground. At least not for a very long time.

There’s not point in treading over the same ground again and again. I’ve said all I can say, I can’t change what I believe and no matter how much I try to explain my position there will be those who simply will not understand.

If I have offended or annoyed anyone particularly anyone who has suffered at the church’s hands then I apologize. It wasn’t my intent and please don’t anyone think I don’t support the survivors to the hilt. I do and I hope those responsible are punished to the fullest extent.

Part of the problem not part of the solution

vicwatson · 19-08-2018 11:18PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’m sorry to hear that and please please believe me when I say I think what happened to you and others was disgusting and that those responsible deserve to be punished painfully and over a long drawn out period of time.

I appreciate your feelings towards the mass and I really honestly didn’t intend to cause you any pain or upset.

Now I really do feel terrible. I’m sorry.

If you meant that you wouldn’t be supporting the Roman Catholic Church in its current guise. They are the facts

eviltwin · 19-08-2018 11:19PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’m sorry to hear that and please please believe me when I say I think what happened to you and others was disgusting and that those responsible deserve to be punished painfully and over a long drawn out period of time.

I appreciate your feelings towards the mass and I really honestly didn’t intend to cause you any pain or upset.

Now I really do feel terrible. I’m sorry.

Audrey don't feel terrible. Honestly I don't want you feeling like the bad guy here, your not and my anger isn't towards you or anyone else going. The whole thing is just too close for comfort and the coverage has been bringing up a load of stuff I haven't thought about in years. I'm heading off to rural Donegal tomorrow and getting away from it for a few days of self care. I'm sorry if you feel bad, say a little prayer on Sunday that people find peace. Everyone is entitled to their belief and to express it how they wish.

AudreyHepburn · 19-08-2018 11:24PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Audrey don't feel terrible. Honestly I don't want you feeling like the bad guy here, your not and my anger isn't towards you or anyone else going. The whole thing is just too close for comfort and the coverage has been bringing up a load of stuff I haven't thought about in years. I'm heading off to rural Donegal tomorrow and getting away from it for a few days of self care. I'm sorry if you feel bad, say a little prayer on Sunday that people find peace. Everyone is entitled to their belief and to express it how they wish.

How can I not feel terrible - I told you I struggle with my faith all the time and discussions like this make it worse. I know you were angry with me as much as anyone and I understand and apologize again.

No wonder you think my loyalty is to the evil bastards that hurt you.

There are times I wish I didn’t believe and times I think I should hide it and this thread reminds me why that is.

volchitsa · 19-08-2018 11:33PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

How can I not feel terrible - I told you I struggle with my faith all the time and discussions like this make it worse. I know you were angry with me as much as anyone and I understand and apologize again.

No wonder you think my loyalty is to the evil bastards that hurt you.

I'm genuinely struggling to see how it's not?

Why is the pope not cancelling all engagements to deal with these revelations?

AFAICT, it is just yet another example of how the church has constantly downplayed and ignored previous cases of abuse until they were forced to acknowledge them, and even then they carried out the whole rigmarole of downplaying or ignoring every time there was a new one.

If any other organisation acted like that, anyone who didn't boycott them, who continued to buy their merchandise would be seen as supporting them. Why should the church be treated differently? It's a genuine question and one nobody has answered.

Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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