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Using a small commercial 100% privately

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  • 17-08-2018 2:51pm
    #1
    Chavways
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭


    Hi All,

    I've seen threads regarding this but nothing within the last 2 years so just wanted to see if anything has changed.

    I am looking to buy a VW Caddy Maxi commercial van and use it 100% for private use (camping, carrying kayaks, bikes etc). I do not have a company/sole trader status or VAT number. It would also be my only vehicle. Preferably, I'd fit storage shelves and kit out the back to make it livable for weekends away and sleeping in.

    My understanding is that there would be a few avenues if I bought this van to get it on the road:

    1. Register it as a private vehicle, pay the VRT, try and convince my insurer that it is now a private vehicle and then jump through the hoops of annual CVRT and tax it as a private vehicle.

    2. Start a company and register it as a commercial but never use it as such. Not certain of the pitfalls of this but I assume it would raise question marks if I have a company under my name and have no income from said company but I imagine this is done by a lot of people. It would be taxed as a commercial and go through CVRT annually.

    I rang my current insurance broker (currently have a VW Golf Estate) and she said there is zero chance any insurer would ever insure a commercial vehicle for private use. Couldn't get out of her whether this applied to a registered commercial vehicle or a former commercial vehicle now registered as a private vehicle.

    I've done a lot of googling and the whole thing seems to be an absolute minefield between legality/morality with plenty of grey areas and ambiguity. I'm looking at a small bare van just to be able to kit it out but the other option would be to buy a 7 seater Caddy Maxi or maybe a Caravelle minibus and remove the seats and make some sort of a camper out of it but I think I'm correct in saying that for the NCT, everything would have to be replaced (seatbelts, seats etc) to a working state for them to process it through. Which wouldn't be ideal as I would like to make it a permanent set up if possible.

    Any advice/reading/leads would be hugely appreciated. I'm only 2 weeks into researching this but already I'm pretty demoralized by the amount of roadblocks.


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    #2
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Why don't you buy an old Land Rover or estate car and take the back seats out? This can't be that complicated, loads of people have Defenders with only two seats that they use as their weekend car.


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    #3
    Chavways
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭Chavways


    troyzer wrote: »
    Why don't you buy an old Land Rover or estate car and take the back seats out? This can't be that complicated, loads of people have Defenders with only two seats that they use as their weekend car.

    I currently have a 2008 Golf estate and we fold the seats down in that and sleep in the back sometimes but for 2 people and kayaking/hiking/cooking gear, its very cramped.

    Taking out the seats is the easy part I think but my understanding is that they would have to be replaced for the NCT.


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    #4
    Nuw
    Registered Users Posts: 509 ✭✭✭Nuw


    Golf estate is pretty cramped alright, why not upgrade to a bigger estate? Something like a Volvo V70 or similar? Or maybe even some sort of MPV with flat folding seats like honda stream or some such? I think it would avoid any insurance/nct related nightmares...


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    #5
    Chavways
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭Chavways


    Nuw wrote: »
    Golf estate is pretty cramped alright, why not upgrade to a bigger estate? Something like a Volvo V70 or similar? Or maybe even some sort of MPV with flat folding seats like honda stream or some such? I think it would avoid any insurance/nct related nightmares...

    Coming from a 00 Polo hatchback, the Golf has been luxury for the last year but I definitely want something with more space for the outdoors, sleeping in etc, as our lifestyle is heading that way.

    The Caddy Maxi came to mind because of some conversions I've seen and they look great and simple:

    Example 1
    Example 2
    Example 3

    We'd also be putting roof racks on it to carry kayaks/canoe/roofbox for longer duration trips.


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    #6
    Toyotafanboi
    Registered Users Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    You don't need rear seats for to pass an NCT. It will just show up as a pass advisory on the cert that rear seats were missing at the time of test.


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    #7
    Chavways
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭Chavways


    Toyotafanboi wrote: »
    You don't need rear seats for to pass an NCT. It will just show up as a pass advisory on the cert that rear seats were missing at the time of test.


    I thought that if a car went for an NCT stating it had 5 seats, the seat belts for those 5 had to be checked at the centre? Or am I mistaken? Thanks.


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    #8
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    I'm not sure what exact configurations are available in Ireland, but a few years back I rented a VW Transporter (T5) Kombi in South Africa, which was a basic 7-seater - it had two rows of bench seats which were completely removable, a basic rubber floor and it was mostly just a van with windows beyond that. That sounds more like what you're looking for rather than the Caravelle. My previous experience with the Caravelle was a much more upmarket large MPV with carpeted floor, full interior trim (not much exposed metal), fancier seats, etc.

    The VW UK website seem to list Transporter and Caddy "kombis" but they look more like crew-cabs, so I dunno if that's the terminology they use around here at all. Or there's the "Caddy Maxi Life" on the Irish site, which looks like a passenger version... but it's on the Volkswagen Commercial website so I dunno. Very confusing!

    There were also a few Japanese domestic models designed more specifically for recreational use, e.g. rear seats that fold down flat for use as a bed. Mitsubishi RVR and Honda S-MX come to mind, but I'm not sure what more modern equivalents are as everything's gone a bit crossover SUV. Also, a lot of them are quite ugly "tall wagon" style yokes.


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    #9
    na1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 921 ✭✭✭na1


    If you get stopped during the weekend in the commercially taxed vehicle with all you family at the checkpoint, it would be hard to explain that you're doing a business trip for your company.


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    #10
    meep
    Registered Users Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭meep


    Don't satrt a company for the sole purpose of acquiring a vehicle. There are onerous responsobilities on company directors in terms of filing returns and prudent company management. Unless you know what you;re doing, you're opening up a minefield for yourself and exposing yourself to unxpected tasks and fess (accountants and the like) that could potentially outweight any benefits accrued from vehcicle ownership and management.


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    #11
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    How do people tax and insure DIY camper conversions? I've seen it done with old ambulances, and they're on the road... somehow.


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    #12
    Chavways
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭Chavways


    zilog_jones wrote: »
    How do people tax and insure DIY camper conversions? I've seen it done with old ambulances, and they're on the road... somehow.


    That's what I'm trying to find out. I know the process to get a vehicle registered as a camper is confusing also and finding insurers that would cover you is an issue. As I'm only 25 and this would be my primary vehicle, I think going down the full camper route would be difficult.


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    #13
    Chavways
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭Chavways


    Thanks for all the replies so far. Just off the phone to Chill Insurance and according to their rep, any of the 14 companies they provide quotes for will not insure a commercial van that is taxed & registered as a private vehicle unless it has seats and windows in the back...So it needs to be a combi from what I was hearing. Again, this seems very ambiguous and open to interpretation because every van isn't the same.


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    #14
    Agricola
    Registered Users Posts: 6,547 ✭✭✭Agricola


    My understanding is you need to have a specialized van insurer for a commercial. If you contact any of the usual suspects and give them the make and model of a commercial vehicle, it simply won't be listed on their system so they wouldn't be able to quote you anyway. In my experience insurances companies are very much of the "computer says no" variety. There's little room for manoeuver when you're trying to do something like this.


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    #15
    Kenny Logins
    Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭Kenny Logins


    Can you convert to "camper"?- https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056286278


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    #16
    mgbgt1978
    Registered Users Posts: 4,230 ✭✭✭mgbgt1978


    zilog_jones wrote: »
    How do people tax and insure DIY camper conversions? I've seen it done with old ambulances, and they're on the road... somehow.
    They usually have a 'main' car. The Tax and Insurance is very reasonable (for a lot of people) if they also have a daily driver.
    OP, try going the road suggested by NUW. See what's out there, see what consistently gives you the best Insurance quote. Then tint all the windows from the B pillar back, back seats out, and away you go.
    You don't say what budget you have, but even a Berlingo Multispace (for example) would have more usable rear space than your Golf.


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    #17
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,142 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    My Skoda Roomster is a small van when I take out the back seats.


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    #18
    Chavways
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭Chavways


    mgbgt1978 wrote: »
    They usually have a 'main' car. The Tax and Insurance is very reasonable (for a lot of people) if they also have a daily driver.
    OP, try going the road suggested by NUW. See what's out there, see what consistently gives you the best Insurance quote. Then tint all the windows from the B pillar back, back seats out, and away you go.
    You don't say what budget you have, but even a Berlingo Multispace (for example) would have more usable rear space than your Golf.

    Sorry, never said. Budget would be approx 5-7k for the vehicle and then we'd leave some money aside to kit it out. So wouldn't be looking for a lot of bells and whistles, just a large enough space for 2 people to sleep and use as a cooking/seating area with some gear.

    I've found some pretty good examples of Trafics, Vivaros, Vianos even so I think this might be the best route. Mileage is pretty high on a lot of them but I guess that's to be expected with their intended purpose.


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    #19
    Oops!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭Oops!


    Chavways wrote: »
    I currently have a 2008 Golf estate and we fold the seats down in that and sleep in the back sometimes but for 2 people and kayaking/hiking/cooking gear, its very cramped.

    Taking out the seats is the easy part I think but my understanding is that they would have to be replaced for the NCT.

    The rear seats do not have to be fitted for it to pass the NCT, only the belts.


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    #20
    humberklog
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,445 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    Would you consider something like this...

    44046668552_1fd1a0c6d8.jpg

    Get a decent bangernomics estate/van that has fold flat seats. That way you've a decent hard standing bed to sleep on.


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    #21
    marklazarcovic
    Registered Users Posts: 6,210 ✭✭✭marklazarcovic


    Why don't you just insure as a commercial and tax as a private?

    Am I missing something?


    Obviously you can't if your gonna make it a camper,but you can if it's just for lugging stuff around


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    #22
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    What about a Corolla Verso? The seats fold flat in them and you have a decent sleeping space, tint the rear windows and that will help with privacy.

    If its just the two of you build a false floor that the bed sits on to allow storage underneath for your gear.
    The roof is pretty high in them and it allows a lot of possibilities.
    toyota-corolla-verso-019.jpg


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    #23
    Metric Tensor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    I'm not sure if it's still the case for the newer models but the five rear seats in the older model Seat Alhambra all clicked out and lifted clear to leave a completely flat back with a carpeted floor. Takes about 5 mins to get them out and about the same to put them back in. The middle seatbelt was retractable into the roof too so it could be just left there.

    http://partsopen.com/images/2001-seat-alhambra-6.jpg

    https://www.carbox.de/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/9/0/901727_2.jpg


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    #24
    Wildly Boaring
    Registered Users Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    marklazarcovic wrote: »
    Why don't you just insure as a commercial and tax as a private?

    Am I missing something?

    This was my understanding. Not sure if it was the AMA on boards or elsewhere that an insurance person clarified that ..... they will always class vans as commercial insurance as they class the vehicle as a commercial vehicle not the use. You would be covered for private use of said commercial vehicle.

    Deffo tax privately.


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    #25
    Chavways
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭Chavways


    humberklog wrote: »
    Would you consider something like this...

    44046668552_1fd1a0c6d8.jpg

    Get a decent bangernomics estate/van that has fold flat seats. That way you've a decent hard standing bed to sleep on.


    Unfortunately no. We would typically camp in the middle of nowhere/by the west coast so its nearly always windy and having the flapping of a tent would spook the dog. The Golf estate I have already has seats that fold flat and we have inflatable ground mats so it is a pretty decent narrow double bed but we're looking for more space now.


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    #26
    Chavways
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭Chavways


    marklazarcovic wrote: »
    Why don't you just insure as a commercial and tax as a private?

    Am I missing something?


    Obviously you can't if your gonna make it a camper,but you can if it's just for lugging stuff around


    Is that not against the law to insure it as a commercial if I have no company and it will be used for social, domestic & pleasure 100% of the time?


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    #27
    Chavways
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭Chavways


    CJhaughey wrote: »
    What about a Corolla Verso? The seats fold flat in them and you have a decent sleeping space, tint the rear windows and that will help with privacy.

    If its just the two of you build a false floor that the bed sits on to allow storage underneath for your gear.
    The roof is pretty high in them and it allows a lot of possibilities.


    I think this would be a pretty simialr size to the Golf so would be looking for something a lot bigger for trips over a few days. These looks great and they're pretty cheap though!

    Metric Tensor wrote: »
    I'm not sure if it's still the case for the newer models but the five rear seats in the older model Seat Alhambra all clicked out and lifted clear to leave a completely flat back with a carpeted floor. Takes about 5 mins to get them out and about the same to put them back in. The middle seatbelt was retractable into the roof too so it could be just left there.

    http://partsopen.com/images/2001-seat-alhambra-6.jpg

    https://www.carbox.de/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/9/0/901727_2.jpg


    Interesting! Will look into these. Thanks.

    Wildly Boaring wrote: »
    This was my understanding. Not sure if it was the AMA on boards or elsewhere that an insurance person clarified that ..... they will always class vans as commercial insurance as they class the vehicle as a commercial vehicle not the use. You would be covered for private use of said commercial vehicle.

    Deffo tax privately.


    Do insurers not ask a whole raft of questions when trying to insure a commercial? I've never done it. Or is it actually illegal for me to insure a van as commercial when I have no intention of using it for commercial work? Thanks.


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    #28
    Wildly Boaring
    Registered Users Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    I had a commercial insured commercially.
    Ensued it covered commuting and private use too.
    Told the correct profession and that i was employed not self employed or business owner.
    Got in writing no limit on private or carrying passengers.


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    #29
    TrailerBob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭TrailerBob


    As above, fully declared to insurance, non commercial profession, used for commuting and sdp use... but is used in connection with farming as a support unit in the busy season and for moving stuff at weekends. They're happy, the tax office is happy, and the few dozen checkpoints I've been through have never even asked. Some insurers are funny about non commercial profession but some will do it.

    Tax and insurance are totally unrelated.


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    #30
    RINO87
    Registered Users Posts: 2,482 ✭✭✭RINO87


    Interested to see how this works out for you OP. I was attempting to do the exact same early this year but kept hitting brick walls with insurance etc....(didn't have a second vehicle and my 206 estate bit the dust, needed something quick) So wound up going from a small estate to a bigger estate, but would love a van, simply far more practical for bikes and camping.

    As an aside the seats on a skoda Yeti come out very easily, leaving tons of room in the back.


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    #31
    FunkyDa2
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭FunkyDa2


    spurious wrote: »
    My Skoda Roomster is a small van when I take out the back seats.

    +1 for the Roomster...:)


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