Using a small commercial 100% privately

Chavways

Hi All,

I've seen threads regarding this but nothing within the last 2 years so just wanted to see if anything has changed.

I am looking to buy a VW Caddy Maxi commercial van and use it 100% for private use (camping, carrying kayaks, bikes etc). I do not have a company/sole trader status or VAT number. It would also be my only vehicle. Preferably, I'd fit storage shelves and kit out the back to make it livable for weekends away and sleeping in.

My understanding is that there would be a few avenues if I bought this van to get it on the road:

1. Register it as a private vehicle, pay the VRT, try and convince my insurer that it is now a private vehicle and then jump through the hoops of annual CVRT and tax it as a private vehicle.

2. Start a company and register it as a commercial but never use it as such. Not certain of the pitfalls of this but I assume it would raise question marks if I have a company under my name and have no income from said company but I imagine this is done by a lot of people. It would be taxed as a commercial and go through CVRT annually.

I rang my current insurance broker (currently have a VW Golf Estate) and she said there is zero chance any insurer would ever insure a commercial vehicle for private use. Couldn't get out of her whether this applied to a registered commercial vehicle or a former commercial vehicle now registered as a private vehicle.

I've done a lot of googling and the whole thing seems to be an absolute minefield between legality/morality with plenty of grey areas and ambiguity. I'm looking at a small bare van just to be able to kit it out but the other option would be to buy a 7 seater Caddy Maxi or maybe a Caravelle minibus and remove the seats and make some sort of a camper out of it but I think I'm correct in saying that for the NCT, everything would have to be replaced (seatbelts, seats etc) to a working state for them to process it through. Which wouldn't be ideal as I would like to make it a permanent set up if possible.

Any advice/reading/leads would be hugely appreciated. I'm only 2 weeks into researching this but already I'm pretty demoralized by the amount of roadblocks.

troyzer

Why don't you buy an old Land Rover or estate car and take the back seats out? This can't be that complicated, loads of people have Defenders with only two seats that they use as their weekend car.

Chavways

troyzer wrote: »

Why don't you buy an old Land Rover or estate car and take the back seats out? This can't be that complicated, loads of people have Defenders with only two seats that they use as their weekend car.

I currently have a 2008 Golf estate and we fold the seats down in that and sleep in the back sometimes but for 2 people and kayaking/hiking/cooking gear, its very cramped.

Taking out the seats is the easy part I think but my understanding is that they would have to be replaced for the NCT.

Nuw

Golf estate is pretty cramped alright, why not upgrade to a bigger estate? Something like a Volvo V70 or similar? Or maybe even some sort of MPV with flat folding seats like honda stream or some such? I think it would avoid any insurance/nct related nightmares...

Chavways

Nuw wrote: »

Golf estate is pretty cramped alright, why not upgrade to a bigger estate? Something like a Volvo V70 or similar? Or maybe even some sort of MPV with flat folding seats like honda stream or some such? I think it would avoid any insurance/nct related nightmares...

Coming from a 00 Polo hatchback, the Golf has been luxury for the last year but I definitely want something with more space for the outdoors, sleeping in etc, as our lifestyle is heading that way.

The Caddy Maxi came to mind because of some conversions I've seen and they look great and simple:

Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

We'd also be putting roof racks on it to carry kayaks/canoe/roofbox for longer duration trips.

Toyotafanboi

You don't need rear seats for to pass an NCT. It will just show up as a pass advisory on the cert that rear seats were missing at the time of test.

Chavways

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

You don't need rear seats for to pass an NCT. It will just show up as a pass advisory on the cert that rear seats were missing at the time of test.

I thought that if a car went for an NCT stating it had 5 seats, the seat belts for those 5 had to be checked at the centre? Or am I mistaken? Thanks.

zilog_jones

I'm not sure what exact configurations are available in Ireland, but a few years back I rented a VW Transporter (T5) Kombi in South Africa, which was a basic 7-seater - it had two rows of bench seats which were completely removable, a basic rubber floor and it was mostly just a van with windows beyond that. That sounds more like what you're looking for rather than the Caravelle. My previous experience with the Caravelle was a much more upmarket large MPV with carpeted floor, full interior trim (not much exposed metal), fancier seats, etc.

The VW UK website seem to list Transporter and Caddy "kombis" but they look more like crew-cabs, so I dunno if that's the terminology they use around here at all. Or there's the "Caddy Maxi Life" on the Irish site, which looks like a passenger version... but it's on the Volkswagen Commercial website so I dunno. Very confusing!

There were also a few Japanese domestic models designed more specifically for recreational use, e.g. rear seats that fold down flat for use as a bed. Mitsubishi RVR and Honda S-MX come to mind, but I'm not sure what more modern equivalents are as everything's gone a bit crossover SUV. Also, a lot of them are quite ugly "tall wagon" style yokes.

na1

If you get stopped during the weekend in the commercially taxed vehicle with all you family at the checkpoint, it would be hard to explain that you're doing a business trip for your company.

meep

Don't satrt a company for the sole purpose of acquiring a vehicle. There are onerous responsobilities on company directors in terms of filing returns and prudent company management. Unless you know what you;re doing, you're opening up a minefield for yourself and exposing yourself to unxpected tasks and fess (accountants and the like) that could potentially outweight any benefits accrued from vehcicle ownership and management.

zilog_jones

How do people tax and insure DIY camper conversions? I've seen it done with old ambulances, and they're on the road... somehow.

Chavways

zilog_jones wrote: »

How do people tax and insure DIY camper conversions? I've seen it done with old ambulances, and they're on the road... somehow.

That's what I'm trying to find out. I know the process to get a vehicle registered as a camper is confusing also and finding insurers that would cover you is an issue. As I'm only 25 and this would be my primary vehicle, I think going down the full camper route would be difficult.

Chavways

Thanks for all the replies so far. Just off the phone to Chill Insurance and according to their rep, any of the 14 companies they provide quotes for will not insure a commercial van that is taxed & registered as a private vehicle unless it has seats and windows in the back...So it needs to be a combi from what I was hearing. Again, this seems very ambiguous and open to interpretation because every van isn't the same.

Agricola

My understanding is you need to have a specialized van insurer for a commercial. If you contact any of the usual suspects and give them the make and model of a commercial vehicle, it simply won't be listed on their system so they wouldn't be able to quote you anyway. In my experience insurances companies are very much of the "computer says no" variety. There's little room for manoeuver when you're trying to do something like this.

Kenny Logins

Can you convert to "camper"?- https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056286278

mgbgt1978

zilog_jones wrote: »

How do people tax and insure DIY camper conversions? I've seen it done with old ambulances, and they're on the road... somehow.

They usually have a 'main' car. The Tax and Insurance is very reasonable (for a lot of people) if they also have a daily driver.
OP, try going the road suggested by NUW. See what's out there, see what consistently gives you the best Insurance quote. Then tint all the windows from the B pillar back, back seats out, and away you go.
You don't say what budget you have, but even a Berlingo Multispace (for example) would have more usable rear space than your Golf.

spurious

My Skoda Roomster is a small van when I take out the back seats.

Chavways

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

They usually have a 'main' car. The Tax and Insurance is very reasonable (for a lot of people) if they also have a daily driver.
OP, try going the road suggested by NUW. See what's out there, see what consistently gives you the best Insurance quote. Then tint all the windows from the B pillar back, back seats out, and away you go.
You don't say what budget you have, but even a Berlingo Multispace (for example) would have more usable rear space than your Golf.

Sorry, never said. Budget would be approx 5-7k for the vehicle and then we'd leave some money aside to kit it out. So wouldn't be looking for a lot of bells and whistles, just a large enough space for 2 people to sleep and use as a cooking/seating area with some gear.

I've found some pretty good examples of Trafics, Vivaros, Vianos even so I think this might be the best route. Mileage is pretty high on a lot of them but I guess that's to be expected with their intended purpose.

Oops!

Chavways wrote: »

I currently have a 2008 Golf estate and we fold the seats down in that and sleep in the back sometimes but for 2 people and kayaking/hiking/cooking gear, its very cramped.

Taking out the seats is the easy part I think but my understanding is that they would have to be replaced for the NCT.

The rear seats do not have to be fitted for it to pass the NCT, only the belts.

humberklog

Would you consider something like this...



Get a decent bangernomics estate/van that has fold flat seats. That way you've a decent hard standing bed to sleep on.

marklazarcovic

Why don't you just insure as a commercial and tax as a private?

Am I missing something?


Obviously you can't if your gonna make it a camper,but you can if it's just for lugging stuff around

CJhaughey

What about a Corolla Verso? The seats fold flat in them and you have a decent sleeping space, tint the rear windows and that will help with privacy.

If its just the two of you build a false floor that the bed sits on to allow storage underneath for your gear.
The roof is pretty high in them and it allows a lot of possibilities.

Metric Tensor

I'm not sure if it's still the case for the newer models but the five rear seats in the older model Seat Alhambra all clicked out and lifted clear to leave a completely flat back with a carpeted floor. Takes about 5 mins to get them out and about the same to put them back in. The middle seatbelt was retractable into the roof too so it could be just left there.

http://partsopen.com/images/2001-seat-alhambra-6.jpg

https://www.carbox.de/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/9/0/901727_2.jpg

Wildly Boaring

marklazarcovic wrote: »

Why don't you just insure as a commercial and tax as a private?

Am I missing something?

This was my understanding. Not sure if it was the AMA on boards or elsewhere that an insurance person clarified that ..... they will always class vans as commercial insurance as they class the vehicle as a commercial vehicle not the use. You would be covered for private use of said commercial vehicle.

Deffo tax privately.

Chavways

humberklog wrote: »

Would you consider something like this...



Get a decent bangernomics estate/van that has fold flat seats. That way you've a decent hard standing bed to sleep on.

Unfortunately no. We would typically camp in the middle of nowhere/by the west coast so its nearly always windy and having the flapping of a tent would spook the dog. The Golf estate I have already has seats that fold flat and we have inflatable ground mats so it is a pretty decent narrow double bed but we're looking for more space now.

Chavways

marklazarcovic wrote: »

Why don't you just insure as a commercial and tax as a private?

Am I missing something?


Obviously you can't if your gonna make it a camper,but you can if it's just for lugging stuff around

Is that not against the law to insure it as a commercial if I have no company and it will be used for social, domestic & pleasure 100% of the time?

Chavways

CJhaughey wrote: »

What about a Corolla Verso? The seats fold flat in them and you have a decent sleeping space, tint the rear windows and that will help with privacy.

If its just the two of you build a false floor that the bed sits on to allow storage underneath for your gear.
The roof is pretty high in them and it allows a lot of possibilities.

I think this would be a pretty simialr size to the Golf so would be looking for something a lot bigger for trips over a few days. These looks great and they're pretty cheap though!

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I'm not sure if it's still the case for the newer models but the five rear seats in the older model Seat Alhambra all clicked out and lifted clear to leave a completely flat back with a carpeted floor. Takes about 5 mins to get them out and about the same to put them back in. The middle seatbelt was retractable into the roof too so it could be just left there.

http://partsopen.com/images/2001-seat-alhambra-6.jpg

https://www.carbox.de/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/9/0/901727_2.jpg

Interesting! Will look into these. Thanks.

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

This was my understanding. Not sure if it was the AMA on boards or elsewhere that an insurance person clarified that ..... they will always class vans as commercial insurance as they class the vehicle as a commercial vehicle not the use. You would be covered for private use of said commercial vehicle.

Deffo tax privately.

Do insurers not ask a whole raft of questions when trying to insure a commercial? I've never done it. Or is it actually illegal for me to insure a van as commercial when I have no intention of using it for commercial work? Thanks.

Wildly Boaring

I had a commercial insured commercially.
Ensued it covered commuting and private use too.
Told the correct profession and that i was employed not self employed or business owner.
Got in writing no limit on private or carrying passengers.

TrailerBob

As above, fully declared to insurance, non commercial profession, used for commuting and sdp use... but is used in connection with farming as a support unit in the busy season and for moving stuff at weekends. They're happy, the tax office is happy, and the few dozen checkpoints I've been through have never even asked. Some insurers are funny about non commercial profession but some will do it.

Tax and insurance are totally unrelated.

RINO87

Interested to see how this works out for you OP. I was attempting to do the exact same early this year but kept hitting brick walls with insurance etc....(didn't have a second vehicle and my 206 estate bit the dust, needed something quick) So wound up going from a small estate to a bigger estate, but would love a van, simply far more practical for bikes and camping.

As an aside the seats on a skoda Yeti come out very easily, leaving tons of room in the back.

FunkyDa2

spurious wrote: »

My Skoda Roomster is a small van when I take out the back seats.

+1 for the Roomster...:)

listermint

Done this , they rob you blind in the premium though. Gave main profession and had use down for carrying own tools. Which it is. The premium is laughable though have own car and bike too so it's used infrequently but needed.

Del2005

You can get 8 or 9 seater VW Transporter's which could be easily converted for sleeping and most of the manufacturer's make passenger versions of their vans.

You can 100% run a van as a private car.
A lad I work with has a transit connect as his one and only vehicle.
He has no need for it whatsoever but thinks it's cool to have a van.
personally I'd rather an estate car!

marklazarcovic

Chavways wrote: »

Is that not against the law to insure it as a commercial if I have no company and it will be used for social, domestic & pleasure 100% of the time?

When I did it I said I needed it to bring dog around etc,I drive a van in work which was separate but showed it wasn't for commercial use, there was no issues insuring it and my premium was cheaper.

I only stopped because you loose your car ncb after 2 years if your not insuring a car,and my ncb was the max,

alo1587

Just be careful if taxing your van as private instead of commercial as it will be taxed on its CC's and not emissions as is with a 08+ private car.

Carpentry

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/08-renault-espace-monoco-2-0-l-diesel/19529629

In any espace once you take the seats out you'll get a properly flat floor. Aim for grand espace.

Same with this yoke.

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/mercedes-viano/18915759

tphase

I know someone with a van registered as private, they tell me they are insured with Patrona
One issue that arises for them is toll roads - on some, the car shows up as commercial and they get hit with the commercial toll

marklazarcovic

Would never have thought of the tolls !

Purgative

Chavways wrote: »

Do insurers not ask a whole raft of questions when trying to insure a commercial? I've never done it. Or is it actually illegal for me to insure a van as commercial when I have no intention of using it for commercial work? Thanks.

In my experience no. Have a Hilux imsured for SD&P and own goods.


As a side note though this whole commercial tax thing is a huge PIA for no great gain for anyone as far as I can see.

Wildly Boaring

Purgative wrote: »

In my experience no. Have a Hilux imsured for SD&P and own goods.


As a side note though this whole commercial tax thing is a huge PIA for no great gain for anyone as far as I can see.

Commercial tax is a massive saving for just that ... commercial driving

A fleet of 50 or 60 vans. Say they're 2.0 litre approx 350 per vehicle saving vs the tax per cc. €17000 on that fleet.

Transit is usually a 2.5. So again say €750 saving per vehicle. Same fleet of 50 transits, €37500 saving!!!

elperello

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Commercial tax is a massive saving for just that ... commercial driving

A fleet of 50 or 60 vans. Say they're 2.0 litre approx 350 per vehicle saving vs the tax per cc. €17000 on that fleet.

Transit is usually a 2.5. So again say €750 saving per vehicle. Same fleet of 50 transits, €37500 saving!!!

Any company with a fleet of 50 or 60 vans will have a turnover and bottom line that will make €17000 look like a small sum. Don't get me wrong, I know the value of a pound but at that level only the accountant will worry about 17k. There is nothing to prevent a change in the rules to make sense of the current overly restrictive system except that's the way it has always been done.

Purgative

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Commercial tax is a massive saving for just that ... commercial driving

A fleet of 50 or 60 vans. Say they're 2.0 litre approx 350 per vehicle saving vs the tax per cc. €17000 on that fleet.

Transit is usually a 2.5. So again say €750 saving per vehicle. Same fleet of 50 transits, €37500 saving!!!

Oh I do get that. What I don't get is that Governments here have used this tax as a money spinning thing which causes the perversion that this thread is about.


I say that having moved here from UK 10 or so years ago when road tax there was £200/£300, didn't matter much what you drove and you could get it at the PO without going to the county town and basically be fcuked about with while they sorted it out.

Wildly Boaring

elperello wrote: »

Any company with a fleet of 50 or 60 vans will have a turnover and bottom line that will make €17000 look like a small sum. Don't get me wrong, I know the value of a pound but at that level only the accountant will worry about 17k. There is nothing to prevent a change in the rules to make sense of the current overly restrictive system except that's the way it has always been done.

Can't see too many sneezing at the 40k though

No pleasing people. Don't see the problem myself

Commercial tax, VAT back on cost, VAT back on juice, depreciation write off.

Lower cost to business and in turn to us.

Wildly Boaring

Purgative wrote: »

Oh I do get that. What I don't get is that Governments here have used this tax as a money spinning thing which causes the perversion that this thread is about.


I say that having moved here from UK 10 or so years ago when road tax there was £200/£300, didn't matter much what you drove and you could get it at the PO without going to the county town and basically be fcuked about with while they sorted it out.

Yep 200 to 300 on tax. Notice the considerably higher diesel costs in UK. That's where they're getting the tax in.

Swings and roundabouts.

elperello

Just give people what they want without putting a load of stupid restrictions on them.
Give the genuine business full time users the appropriate tax allowances.
Let the small time operator have an element of private use and still have commercial use.
If someone wants a van for dogs or bikes, let them, the sky won't fall in.
The current system is a mess with Motor Tax, Revenue and Insurance companies all acting as gatekeepers in a game of cat and mouse.

I know plenty driving commercials which are taxed commercially also for 100% private use so it’s certainly doable.

elperello

Zion Tart Rum wrote: »

I know plenty driving commercials which are taxed commercially also for 100% private use so it’s certainly doable.

Yes you are right but they are operating in in a grey area.
The present system doesn't allow for the way people live in the real world.

mr c

A Chrysler Grand Voyager or Toyota Previa etc. would be ideal size wise for your requirements and they can be bought cheap enough now to
a commercial could be used for private use and taxed accordingly but i would guess the insurance would be dearer than a already categorized private vehicle

wingnut

Chavways wrote: »

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

You don't need rear seats for to pass an NCT. It will just show up as a pass advisory on the cert that rear seats were missing at the time of test.

I thought that if a car went for an NCT stating it had 5 seats, the seat belts for those 5 had to be checked at the centre? Or am I mistaken? Thanks.

Mistaken. I've had my Cmax through the NCT a few times as a four seater with the rear middle seat out.