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Face Facts.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,389 ✭✭✭jonski



    From that piece
    “The harsh truth is that smoking kills, and smokers who switch completely to e-cigarettes are likely to substantially reduce the likelihood of premature death and disability.”


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,984 ✭✭✭Venom


    It's a rigged study designed to get one outcome and that's to show vaping in a bad light. Who in the real world vapes 36mg in a sub ohm tank! Most vapers use 3-6mg in direct lung devices and the most basic of research into vaping would have highlighted this fact.


    https://thorax.bmj.com/content/early/2018/07/07/thoraxjnl-2018-211663


    E-cigarette liquids

    ECLs with and without pharmaceutical grade nicotine were obtained from American E-liquids Store (Milwaukee County Research Park, Wauwatosa, WI, USA), which adheres to US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved good manufacturing standards and has been used in previous animal exposure studies.13 To avoid confounders, only flavourless liquids were used. Nicotine containing ECL was 36 mg/mL, nfECL was simply a 50:50 mixture of PG:VG.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Thecageyone


    Yawn, another month another anti-vape article by the Sun ...

    Don't insult your own intelligence giving this BS any time


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Trent Houseboat


    Read about this on the Irish Times site yesterday. I didn't put much pass on it, as they said it was a small lab based study.
    These are the same type of studies that prove that vitamin C cures HIV.

    Definitely grounds for further study and nobody can actually say (certainly don't think anyone on here would) that there are no long term side effects to vaping.

    But for the moment, this a definite yawn as Cagey said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Thecageyone


    Most of these 'studies' are very vague, it's "researchers say" or "scientists discovered" - they never say who, if it's so solid they would want to be named as the ones to discover because it would be a big deal. What also makes me laugh is every second study or experiment contradicts the last, it's like some weird battle is going on between these supposed scientists

    I've done enough research, watched enough documentaries and read enough information from much more reliable sources to know there is 'some' risk involved in vaping - this is why we don't want to see non-smokers pick it up, this is why we would never urge our kids to vape for no good reason, why we tell them to stay well clear of our vape devices and liquids ... we're not thick! We know it's not 100% healthy, but it is 97% safer and healthier for us than smoking. What do these "researchers" not get about this? By scare mongering people they will deter many smokers from trying vaping, and that is what really stinks.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,301 ✭✭✭✭gerrybbadd


    Oh, The Sun? Beacon of high value journalism and all that it's famous for.

    Ya, I won't be passing any head on absolutely anything this rag has to say


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭Dr Bill V1.5


    I think it's time we were honest with ourselves!?


    Honesty and The Sun!!!!!!.....naaah don't think I'll bother answering this one.


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ Carolyn Elegant Tofu


    Most of these 'studies' are very vague, it's "researchers say" or "scientists discovered" - they never say who, if it's so solid they would want to be named as the ones to discover because it would be a big deal. What also makes me laugh is every second study or experiment contradicts the last, it's like some weird battle is going on between these supposed scientists

    I've done enough research, watched enough documentaries and read enough information from much more reliable sources to know there is 'some' risk involved in vaping - this is why we don't want to see non-smokers pick it up, this is why we would never urge our kids to vape for no good reason, why we tell them to stay well clear of our vape devices and liquids ... we're not thick! We know it's not 100% healthy, but it is 97% safer and healthier for us than smoking. What do these "researchers" not get about this? By scare mongering people they will deter many smokers from trying vaping, and that is what really stinks.

    I've been doing my own reading around and have found little hard evidence of harm. I don't doubt that it can't be good for you but I wouldn't mind some hard evidence. I also wonder how much this effect happens with smoking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭Dr Bill V1.5


    This from the UK this morning.

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-must-stop-overlooking-95-less-harmful-e-cigarettes-say-mps-11474160

    Interesting to read the comments on the forum also,interesting and comical I should say :D

    We don't know what the long term effects of vaping will have on our bodies and there is no one that can honestly say that they do know. What we do know for sure is that vaping is less harmful to our bodies than smoking cigarettes as there are countless less harmful additives entering our system. Fact.

    As usual,when a lifestyle choice becomes popular then the media will never be too far away to stir the pot a little and see what fallout there will be and then of course we have the tobacco companies hiding in the long grass hoping that their lost source of revenue will eventually see the 'error of their ways' and return to their old habits. And let's not forget our esteemed politicians,who are usually clueless when making decisions and didn't disappoint on this topic either, wherever the popular opinion lies on a new or questionable topic you can be sure that there will be a politician or two throwing their tuppence worth in on behalf of the popular vote casting opinions.

    In fairness to the British MP's they are standing up for what is today a minority and hopefully someone takes heed and begins some serious investigation into vaping,it's short and long term effects and changes, or better still, get rid of that bloody ridiculous TPD directive.

    And until some reputable health authority can tell me without question that vaping is as or more dangerous than smoking then I'll continue as is and ignore all the sh1t that is spewed from the various 'interested' media and political sources. :)


  • Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ Jamie Eager Schoolteacher


    This from the UK this morning.

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-must-stop-overlooking-95-less-harmful-e-cigarettes-say-mps-11474160

    Interesting to read the comments on the forum also,interesting and comical I should say :D

    We don't know what the long term effects of vaping will have on our bodies and there is no one that can honestly say that they do know. What we do know for sure is that vaping is less harmful to our bodies than smoking cigarettes as there are countless less harmful additives entering our system. Fact.

    As usual,when a lifestyle choice becomes popular then the media will never be too far away to stir the pot a little and see what fallout there will be and then of course we have the tobacco companies hiding in the long grass hoping that their lost source of revenue will eventually see the 'error of their ways' and return to their old habits. And let's not forget our esteemed politicians,who are usually clueless when making decisions and didn't disappoint on this topic either, wherever the popular opinion lies on a new or questionable topic you can be sure that there will be a politician or two throwing their tuppence worth in on behalf of the popular vote casting opinions.

    In fairness to the British MP's they are standing up for what is today a minority and hopefully someone takes heed and begins some serious investigation into vaping,it's short and long term effects and changes, or better still, get rid of that bloody ridiculous TPD directive.

    And until some reputable health authority can tell me without question that vaping is as or more dangerous than smoking then I'll continue as is and ignore all the sh1t that is spewed from the various 'interested' media and political sources. :)

    What bout it is more harmful than not smoking, which is where the comparison should be.

    Oh, and typically nobody wants to "face facts"


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭Dr Bill V1.5


    What bout it is more harmful than not smoking, which is where the comparison should be.

    Oh, and typically nobody wants to "face facts"

    Face facts.....please enlighten me to the 'facts'


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭Dr Bill V1.5


    What bout it is more harmful than not smoking, which is where the comparison should be.

    Oh, and typically nobody wants to "face facts"

    You want a comparison 'fact'....there's 1 pretty comprehensive fact carried out by the NHS over a year ago :)

    https://www.nhs.uk/news/heart-and-lungs/long-term-vaping-far-safer-than-smoking-says-landmark-study/


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭Dr Bill V1.5


    And to finish on this topic we need a proper educational programme for the public,both smokers and non smokers so as mis information is not placed in the public domain thereby possibly stopping someone from switching to a healthier alternative in order to get themselves off cigarettes.

    http://dailycaller.com/2018/05/31/world-health-organization-misleading-smokers/


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,820 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    I've never understood why the government treaded vaping differently to smoking cigarettes. From the get go they had the chance to make advertisements illegal.

    I know that the jury is still out on vaping but I thought tight rules and regulations for the shops would have been a good idea.

    I have seen many smokers turn to vaping and in some cases give up smoking and vaping. I think vaping can be a good tool to help someone give up smoking I'm just confused as to why vaping stalls and shops are so visible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,389 ✭✭✭jonski


    What bout it is more harmful than not smoking, which is where the comparison should be.

    it is more harmful than not smoking - I presume what you are trying to say is that if someone doesn't smoke already then they should not take up vaping . This is obvious and most vapers would acknowledge this . Also most vapers would never suggest to someone else to take up vaping if they didn't already smoke .

    Best thing for your lungs is fresh clean air . So stay out of town and don't be walking near any diesel cars ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭Dr Bill V1.5


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I've never understood why the government treaded vaping differently to smoking cigarettes. From the get go they had the chance to make advertisements illegal.

    I know that the jury is still out on vaping but I thought tight rules and regulations for the shops would have been a good idea.

    I have seen many smokers turn to vaping and in some cases give up smoking and vaping. I think vaping can be a good tool to help someone give up smoking I'm just confused as to why vaping stalls and shops are so visible.

    It's because the vaping business contributes greatly to the national coffers same as any other business and because our policy makers haven't demonised it yet to an underground operation simply because neither policy makers, health officials or vapers have the necessary knowledge nor the 'liathroidí' to claim that it's unsafe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,820 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    It's because the vaping business contributes greatly to the national coffers same as any other business and because our policy makers haven't demonised it yet to an underground operation simply because neither policy makers, health officials or vapers have the necessary knowledge nor the 'liathroidí' to claim that it's unsafe.

    My point exactly. You could have posted the exact same reply 60 years ago about cigarettes. Why take the chance? All indicators so far are they will prove harmful. I'm not saying banning vaping, though I do see many places have banned vaping on their premises. I have seen vaping help people give up smoking and that's a good thing


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭Dr Bill V1.5


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    My point exactly. You could have posted the exact same reply 60 years ago about cigarettes. Why take the chance? All indicators so far are they will prove harmful. I'm not saying banning vaping, though I do see many places have banned vaping on their premises. I have seen vaping help people give up smoking and that's a good thing

    Totally disagree,there are no official indicators proving this as a fact and I will say "yet". On the contrary,vaping is being acknowledged as a successful transition from smoking,and as you already stated it has proven to assist people in stopping smoking and some find it an easier alternative to quitting altogether.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,820 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Totally disagree,there are no official indicators proving this as a fact and I will say "yet". On the contrary,vaping is being acknowledged as a successful transition from smoking,and as you already stated it has proven to assist people in stopping smoking and some find it an easier alternative to quitting altogether.

    Well just about everyone in the medical profession are saying that they expect it to be dangerous. They see what chemicals are used & have a pretty good idea. The problem is that they have to wait for people to be vaping another 10 or 20 years before they can say for certain. In order words they can't tell the death rate till people start dying.

    In the meantime though the government could ban all advertising, posters and signs. It's not good for kids to see this advertising. These measures wouldn't effect people already vaping.

    Many countries have banned vaping while others have major restrictions. In the US they fall under the same regulations & restrictions as tobacco.

    "In their findings, the WHO said that there was insufficient evidence to suggest that e-cigarettes help smokers give up, and that they encourage younger users to experiment with different flavours.
    It added that while the products are less toxic than real cigarettes, they still pose a health risk."

    Why take the risk. Ban advertising now


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭Dr Bill V1.5


    I don't want to be mis understood on this issue and it's not really a discussion I meant to get involved in at all as I normally ignore the negative press surrounding this.
    In no way am I saying that vaping is good for you,but for a smoker trying to get off cigarettes it is a much healthier option that has proven to be successful for many. Whether people then decide to quit vaping or continue is a lifestyle choice for that individual,personally I quit smoking and started vaping almost 6 years ago. Healthwise I feel much better,financially maybe worse off,but I'll accept that trade off :D
    The death toll from smoking related conditions is huge and if switching to vaping reduces this in any small way then it's a positive that should be explored. If as I said already that vaping turns out to be as bad as smoking well then I will accept a very large slice of humble pie from whoever wants to deliver it to me but until I see an official statement that vaping sucks then I'm sticking with it. :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,820 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    I 100 percent think that they helped many give up smoking and I believe that alone is enough not to ban vaping. As you say it can't be anywhere near as bad for you as smoking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭Cordell


    So they took cells out of the body ans exposed them to nicotine, which is, of course, toxic. Toxic dose of nicotine is believed to be around 30-60mg (or so it says on wikipedia) so a bottle of 10ml with 6mg/ml may kill you, and one with 12mg/ml may kill you twice.
    But, no one does that, as no one takes cells out of his lungs and drips eliquid over them.

    Nicotine is harmful and addictive, we already know that, this is why we switched to a less harmful way of delivering it. If you really need to do a study then expose those cells to nicotine free smoke and to nicotine free vape, see what that does. But don't ask some tobacco company to finance it ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭Dr Bill V1.5


    I could argue with you about why countries are banning vaping,banning flavours and the interference of multi national tobacco companies in the policy making of various countries especially the US but we'd be here for days. Very very few policy makers have the general well being of the public at the centre of their focus when sitting down to discuss the negative impact a particular topic is having on the revenue flowing into their particular state.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,389 ✭✭✭jonski


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Well just about everyone in the medical profession are saying that they expect it to be dangerous. They see what chemicals are used & have a pretty good idea.

    Really ? I'm reading about vaping for about 5 years now, I haven't seen "just about everyone in the medical profession saying that they expect it to be dangerous" . I think that might be a gross over exaggeration .

    Unless you mean it to be more dangerous than breathing fresh air .

    I have a son who smoked, I got him to switch over to vaping , I've a daughter who doesn't smoke, I've advised her to stay away from it .

    People suggesting that vaping is anywhere near as dangerous as smoking are doing a massive disservice to people who currently smoke .


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,820 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    jonski wrote:
    Really ? I'm reading about vaping for about 5 years now, I haven't seen "just about everyone in the medical profession saying that they expect it to be dangerous" . I think that might be a gross over exaggeration .


    I think you might be reading biased articles.

    Most countries this is a restricted product. Some countries have outright banned vaping while in others its illegal to sell. So most government's have taken advice from their health professionals. In the states the surgeon general has classed vaping in the same category as tobacco /smoking. My guess these governments aren't reading the same material that you are


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,389 ✭✭✭jonski


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I think you might be reading biased articles.

    Maybe, but in the main I'm trying to stay with evidence based articles .


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,820 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    jonski wrote:
    Maybe, but in the main I'm trying to stay with evidence based articles .


    As are governments worldwide and the work heath organisation. Even here is Ireland many premises that allowed vaping have banned it for fear of being sued at a later stage when /if its proven to be lethal


  • Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ Jamie Eager Schoolteacher


    I don't want to be mis understood on this issue and it's not really a discussion I meant to get involved in at all as I normally ignore the negative press surrounding this.
    In no way am I saying that vaping is good for you,but for a smoker trying to get off cigarettes it is a much healthier option that has proven to be successful for many. Whether people then decide to quit vaping or continue is a lifestyle choice for that individual,personally I quit smoking and started vaping almost 6 years ago. Healthwise I feel much better,financially maybe worse off,but I'll accept that trade off :D
    The death toll from smoking related conditions is huge and if switching to vaping reduces this in any small way then it's a positive that should be explored. If as I said already that vaping turns out to be as bad as smoking well then I will accept a very large slice of humble pie from whoever wants to deliver it to me but until I see an official statement that vaping sucks then I'm sticking with it. :)

    I totally with this agree. No where as bad as tobacco. But that doesn't mean it is not very harm full. A lot of the people I know that use vapes don't even know what is in it because they buy cheap from the internet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,389 ✭✭✭jonski


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    As are governments worldwide and the work heath organisation. Even here is Ireland many premises that allowed vaping have banned it for fear of being sued at a later stage when /if its proven to be lethal


    Maybe they are reading biased articles and maybe you and I are .

    You are throwing out a lot of 'many' and 'most' and you are guessing at their reasons why, you don't know and tbf neither do I, but for now I'm going to go with the 95% less harmful that the NHS is pushing .


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,820 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    jonski wrote:
    You are throwing out a lot of 'many' and 'most' and you are guessing at their reasons why, you don't know and tbf neither do I, but for now I'm going to go with the 95% less harmful that the NHS is pushing .

    Still a hell of a lot safer than smoking. I don't think an could argue with that. I tip my hat to anyone who kicks the smokes.


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