Sweden Riots

inforfun · 17-08-2018 08:56AM

Greentopia wrote: »

Then why did they give an interview to a Muslim woman (her name would tell them she was likely to be) if they weren't prepared to accept her way of greeting them and their clients? it's not like how Muslim women show greetings is unknown in Sweden.

Either accept her way of greeting at the selection stage and give her an interview for the job, or decide at the selection stage that this women would not be suitable for the job because this could be a potential problem for them and their customers and bin her application. It was idiotic to call her for an interview then cancel it because of this and lead her out of the office in tears feeling like crap when they should have known better. Someone dropped the ball on this and the company ended up paying the price.

How about her accepting the way of greeting in Sweden?

And yes, they were probably aware they were dealing with a muslim. But how the **** should they know this was 1 of the non handshaking kind?

And deciding to bin her application at the selection stage? You think that there was any mention of this on her application?
And if so, that in Sweden of all places they wouldnt have taken precautions to avoid this?

And seeing this is a business in translations\translators i can see that the fact that she is a muslim and speaking a certain language Ove or Henke is nt capable of, might just have been the point of inviting her.

Kivaro · 17-08-2018 09:12AM

inforfun wrote: »

How about her accepting the way of greeting in Sweden?

Imagine what would happen if the interviewer, knowing that she was Muslim, did not offer his out his hand like he did with the other candidates?
She could easily brought that case to the European Convention on Human Rights because she was not treated the same way as the other candidates.
The interviewer was screwed either way, so what does he do?

Indigenous people in their home countries should not have to adapt to the archaic, nonsensical and non-practical customs of people who want to bring their way of life with them.

topper75 · 17-08-2018 09:40AM

As a Presbyterian, I might to over there on a cheap Ryanair flight and see if I can find any 7-11 shop open on a Sunday. Massive windfall coming my way in the courts. They should respect my religious customs.
That is how she got to sue right - they didn't respect her religious customs.

inforfun · 17-08-2018 09:43AM

Kivaro wrote: »

Imagine what would happen if the interviewer, knowing that she was Muslim, did not offer his out his hand like he did with the other candidates?
She could easily brought that case to the European Convention on Human Rights because she was not treated the same way as the other candidates.
The interviewer was screwed either way, so what does he do?

Indigenous people in their home countries should not have to adapt to the archaic, nonsensical and non-practical customs of people who want to bring their way of life with them.

Every time i read stories like this i get more convinced they are just trolling the country they were welcomed in.

About 10 years ago there was this lawyer in Rotterdam, Mr Enait who for whatever reason applied for the job of customer manager at the social welfare office in the same city.
During the interview het let know that he would not shake the hand of women because of his muslimness.
So that was the end of that job interview and of course mr Enait went to court, representing himself in discrimination case.
He needed the spot lights on him there as well so he refused to stand up when the judge entered the court room.

All this waving of the middle finger to Dutch society did however, was piss off the wrong people who started digging.
in 2015 he was suspended for life as a lawyer because it came out he billed a client €12.000 for 1 hour work and sent death threats when this wasnt paid.
Another high light was the fact he had a picture of Sasha Grey Anetta keys next to the name of his secretary on the "who are we" part of his business website.
So now he is commonly know as the Porn Lawyer.

SnakePlissken · 17-08-2018 01:02PM

SnakePlissken wrote: »

As you claim to know Sweden more than the rest of us, can you or "your friend" name one single positive to their lax immigration policies and its resulting influx of uneducated young males from cultures known for their intolerance toward women and the LGTB community?

So nobody can answer this question? Let's cut the bulls$%t, of course Sweden's lax policies have been to the detriment of the native populace, how can anyone argue otherwise?

inforfun · 17-08-2018 01:08PM

SnakePlissken wrote: »

So nobody can answer this question? Let's cut the bulls$%t, of course Sweden's lax policies have been to the detriment of the native populace, how can anyone argue otherwise?

If the left wing (labour) Dutch minister of Housing and integration Ella Voogelaar can only name "colourful clothes and food" as positive things about the multicultural society, what do you expect to hear here?

weldoninhio · 17-08-2018 02:06PM

inforfun wrote: »

If the left wing (labour) Dutch minister of Housing and integration Ella Voogelaar can only name "colourful clothes and food" as positive things about the multicultural society, what do you expect to hear here?

I'm sure the original letterboxes in Holland weren't black.

end of the road · 17-08-2018 02:34PM

inforfun wrote: »

How about her accepting the way of greeting in Sweden?

why should she. given she lives in a free society, then how she chooses to greet people is her business.

inforfun · 17-08-2018 02:41PM

end of the road wrote: »

why should she. given she lives in a free society, then how she chooses to greet people is her business.

That was a reaction on someone suggesting the Swedes accept her way of greeting.

Why should they?

end of the road · 17-08-2018 03:05PM

inforfun wrote: »

That was a reaction on someone suggesting the Swedes accept her way of greeting.

Why should they?

why shouldn't they?

blinding · 17-08-2018 03:27PM

https://metro.co.uk/2018/08/17/brave-muslim-woman-rips-hijab-off-cleric-told-not-appropriate-7850232/

Are the Swedes getting this sort of stuff yet ?

RandomName2 · 17-08-2018 04:30PM

end of the road wrote: »

why should she. given she lives in a free society, then how she chooses to greet people is her business.

It will come as no surprise that I agree. She should be able to thumb her nose at her interviewer if she likes. The interviewer should also be entitled to not offer her the job for this reason. As you say, it's meant to be a free society.

dr.fuzzenstein · 17-08-2018 04:48PM

Kivaro wrote: »

Imagine what would happen if the interviewer, knowing that she was Muslim, did not offer his out his hand like he did with the other candidates?
She could easily brought that case to the European Convention on Human Rights because she was not treated the same way as the other candidates.
The interviewer was screwed either way, so what does he do?

Indigenous people in their home countries should not have to adapt to the archaic, nonsensical and non-practical customs of people who want to bring their way of life with them.

And do what? Grab her hand and force her to shake yours? Maybe with a haughty "that's how we do this here and so will you!"
I mean ferfcuksake she didn't want to shake hands for whatever reasons and the usual howler monkeys are jumping up and down about it. What if someone has asperger and physical contact drives them nuts? Or someone just isn't into it?
You cannot force physical contact onto someone who doesn't want it for whatever fcuking reason.
Someone has a problem with that, THEY are the problem.

Sand · 17-08-2018 05:12PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

And do what? Grab her hand and force her to shake yours? Maybe with a haughty "that's how we do this here and so will you!"
I mean ferfcuksake she didn't want to shake hands for whatever reasons and the usual howler monkeys are jumping up and down about it. What if someone has asperger and physical contact drives them nuts? Or someone just isn't into it?
You cannot force physical contact onto someone who doesn't want it for whatever fcuking reason.
Someone has a problem with that, THEY are the problem.

Shaking hands is a typical greeting in European societies. If someone is violently against shaking hands, it is they who have the problem when they find themselves in Europe. People have to adjust to the society they find themselves in.

If migrants to Sweden don't adjust to Swedish society, who is going to assimilate who in the end? That court which ruled in favour of the woman in this case is bent on its own demise.

Kivaro · 17-08-2018 05:29PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

And do what? Grab her hand and force her to shake yours? Maybe with a haughty "that's how we do this here and so will you!"
I mean ferfcuksake she didn't want to shake hands for whatever reasons and the usual howler monkeys are jumping up and down about it. What if someone has asperger and physical contact drives them nuts? Or someone just isn't into it?
You cannot force physical contact onto someone who doesn't want it for whatever fcuking reason.
Someone has a problem with that, THEY are the problem.

Dude. Chill. You'll strain something.
I know better, as many do, not to even reach out to shake hands with a Muslim woman if she is wearing a burka, niqab or even a hijab.
If someone has Asperger's and physical contact drives them nuts, then that someone should clearly state that situation upon introduction.

The staff at the company she was interviewing for are required to treat men and women equally and the company does not allow a staff member to refuse a handshake based on gender.

The handshake has been used around the planet for about a bazillion years. Seems now they have to be careful with it in Sweden.
Those whacky Swedes and their ultra-liberal ways.

She received 40,000 kronor in compensation, so it's all good.

end of the road · 17-08-2018 05:39PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

It will come as no surprise that I agree. She should be able to thumb her nose at her interviewer if she likes. The interviewer should also be entitled to not offer her the job for this reason. As you say, it's meant to be a free society.

the interviewer shouldn't be entitled to not offer her the job for this reason, as it could potentially be a way to not offer her the job because of her religion if it was allowed.

Sand wrote: »

That court which ruled in favour of the woman in this case is bent on its own demise.

how so. it simply rules in relation to the laws as set out. it doesn't make rulings to piss off people for the craic.
sometimes courts make rulings we agree with and other times not.

Greentopia · 17-08-2018 06:08PM

inforfun wrote: »

How about her accepting the way of greeting in Sweden?

Because it's a liberal democracy where people are allowed to greet others in ways they themselves wish to and feel comfortable according to their beliefs so long as it's done in a way that's respectful? I don't see the problem as she was being respectful by greeting in her own way-hand over heart and I'm sure there was nothing in company policy about the "correct" way to greet.

I think religiously informed behaviours are all nonsense, but I wouldn't choose to get offended over it when they girl was plainly not seeking to cause offence.
I would have just withdrawn my hand and acknowledged her gesture and moved on with the interview. The way they handled this suggests to me
A. they were either caught out and hadn't realised she was Muslim when called to interview even though it's obvious she was likely to have been by her CV, OR
B. They knew she was Muslim and someone took it as a personal affront that she wouldn't take their hand and choose her own form of greeting instead then overreacted.

inforfun wrote: »

And yes, they were probably aware they were dealing with a muslim. But how the **** should they know this was 1 of the non handshaking kind?

The headscarf she wore might have given them a clue she was religious even if her name didn't?? and what's the problem even if they didn't know, they offered a hand to shake and she demurred but greeted them in her own way which she said was done as a genuine and respectful gesture? what kind of asshole stops the interview and marches her out of the office because she doesn't greet in the way they want? what about the reason she's there in the first place?? isn't that more important than how she greets them??

inforfun wrote: »

And deciding to bin her application at the selection stage? You think that there was any mention of this on her application?
And if so, that in Sweden of all places they wouldnt have taken precautions to avoid this?

As I said they would have seen her name so it doesn't take a genius to figure out she was probably Muslim and all that likely goes with that, including her way of greeting. They either accept that or they don't before they decide to grant her an interview.

Added to which she was going for a translators job and so it would have been on her CV what her background was and what her native language was-again putting one and one together.

Also I don't know what languages she was expected to use as part of the job, but if it was her mother tongue of Arabic, Farsi or any other languages spoken in the Islamic world then why not just call ethnic Swedes with the requisite skills and qualifications for interviews if any aspect of being a Muslim was likely to be incompatible with the culture of the company?
It's common sense to know, or should be by anyone who has been in that country any length of time that how she greeted them is the common form of greeting by most Muslim women.

What do you mean in Sweden of all places? Muslims are hired there in many different occupations so yes they should have known better and what to expect. Like I said-someone in the company dropped the ball and didn't consider the fact she may not be able to shake hands as a form of greeting if that was deemed necessary.

She was presumably called to an interview because they liked her CV and she had the relevant qualifications/experience and whatever else so to break off the interview because of her way of greeting seems petty and rather stupid to me.

inforfun wrote: »

And seeing this is a business in translations\translators i can see that the fact that she is a muslim and speaking a certain language Ove or Henke is nt capable of, might just have been the point of inviting her.

Of course, although there are of course ethnic Swedes who speak whatever "certain language" they were looking for, they may have been seeking someone who's mother tongue was Arabic for example. So again they should have known she was likely to be Muslim! a bit of cop on was lacking here.

dr.fuzzenstein · 17-08-2018 06:16PM

Sand wrote: »

Shaking hands is a typical greeting in European societies. If someone is violently against shaking hands, it is they who have the problem when they find themselves in Europe. People have to adjust to the society they find themselves in.

If migrants to Sweden don't adjust to Swedish society, who is going to assimilate who in the end? That court which ruled in favour of the woman in this case is bent on its own demise.

It's a fcuking handshake. They don't want to, they don't want to.
Throwing a strop over that is immature and childish.

edit:
Oh yeah, and pathetic.

Greentopia · 17-08-2018 06:39PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's a fcuking handshake. They don't want to, they don't want to.
Throwing a strop over that is immature and childish.

Exactly. And you raised an interesting point I hadn't thought of- what about people with conditions that make physical contact difficult if not impossible like people with Aspergers or autism? would that person who threw a strop behave the same way with them as they did this woman? or is it deemed acceptable behaviour because she's a Muslim and she should be damn well taught a lesson in the "correct" way to behave?
Would the people here who have an issue with her also have an issue with an ethnic Swede with Aspergers who took a case like this because they couldn't shake hands?

Seems a clear case of discrimination to me and the courts agreed. I think what people have to understand also is that this issue is about upholding a strongly held ideal in that country- equality. "Alla är lika"- everyone is equal-meaning everyone should have equal value and worth, is a cornerstone of Swedish culture and democracy. Discriminating against someone who chooses a different yet respectful way of greeting goes against that. She believed that and the court agreed. It wasn't about favouring or siding with Muslims or any other religion.

Greentopia · 17-08-2018 07:07PM

Kivaro wrote: »

The staff at the company she was interviewing for are required to treat men and women equally and the company does not allow a staff member to refuse a handshake based on gender.

Where did it say it was part of company policy? Yes they claimed after the fact that they could not accept other forms of greetings than shaking hands but
unless they had it specifically as written company policy (unlikely) I don't see they had a leg to stand on. It seems unlikely that would be something any in-house lawyer would think would be likely to be legal to include as part of their hiring policy as it would clearly discriminate against those who can't make physical contact for medical reasons also.

And she didn't refuse on gender grounds, she said she didn't shake hands with men or women who she was not related to. So again, that's BS.

Sounds to me like they pulled that reason out of thin air to try to cover themselves and there was no such no hand shaking policy in place until they decided there was when this case came to court!

Kivaro wrote: »

The handshake has been used around the planet for about a bazillion years. Seems now they have to be careful with it in Sweden.
Those whacky Swedes and their ultra-liberal ways.

She received 40,000 kronor in compensation, so it's all good.

Careful? no, just a bit of rudimentary knowledge needed of Islam and observation of how Muslims greet each other in a country where Muslims and their cultural values have become more widely known and expressed? seems like a very basic thing to be aware of to me and I'm not even that familiar with all the tenets and rules of that religion?

And Swedes can be very conservative and traditional in other ways btw. They just try to deal with everyone fairly and give all equal treatment under the law.

SnakePlissken · 17-08-2018 07:19PM

end of the road wrote: »

inforfun wrote: »

How about her accepting the way of greeting in Sweden?

why should she. given she lives in a free society, then how she chooses to greet people is her business.

A Muslim man can shake hands with members of the opposite sex and yet for Muslim women it is forbidden lest she be seen as some kind of harlet, sounds kinda sexist to me.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and the few of you who have defended this court decision can let me know the exact reason for this disparity between genders.

Greentopia · 17-08-2018 07:33PM

SnakePlissken wrote: »

A Muslim man can shake hands with members of the opposite sex and yet for Muslim women it is forbidden lest she be seen as some kind of harlet, sounds kinda sexist to me.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and the few of you who have defended this court decision can let me know the exact reason for this disparity between genders.

Maybe it would be better to ask an actual Muslim woman that? I'm sure she would give you better answers than any of us can on that matter.

Like I said I think cultural beliefs and behaviours based on religious doctrine are all a nonsense, but I try to stay out of telling anyone what is correct or incorrect based on my own subjective values and beliefs.

If Muslim women decide they don't want to abide by these behaviours any longer then I'd fully support them because I don't think it does them any favours to be shackled to any patriarchal belief system that restricts their daily lives in such a way; but I trust them to be able to know and understand how, where and when to pick their battles if they should choose to.

Sand · 17-08-2018 07:36PM

end of the road wrote: »

how so. it simply rules in relation to the laws as set out. it doesn't make rulings to piss off people for the craic.
sometimes courts make rulings we agree with and other times not.

I presume the court is not qualified to apply Sharia. It is in their own interests not to defer to it. They'll ultimately find themselves out of work.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's a fcuking handshake. They don't want to, they don't want to.
Throwing a strop over that is immature and childish.

edit:
Oh yeah, and pathetic.

You're talking about the woman here? Right? European cultural norms must have value in Europe at the very least. Otherwise they are worthless. If you think that is the case, then just say so and spare us the theatrics.

Sand · 17-08-2018 07:38PM

Greentopia wrote: »

Exactly. And you raised an interesting point I hadn't thought of- what about people with conditions that make physical contact difficult if not impossible like people with Aspergers or autism?

So Islam is equivalent to a disorder like Aspergers or autism? That's what we're now using to excuse this?

warsaw2018 · 17-08-2018 07:45PM

Have to agree with the Swedish court here
I don't want somean touching my wife's hand

batgoat · 17-08-2018 07:47PM

Sand wrote: »

So Islam is equivalent to a disorder like Aspergers or autism? That's what we're now using to excuse this?

Her point is that there are plenty of people who aren't comfortable with shaking hands for whatever reason. So you could argue they should integrate regardless of how much it puts out of comfort zone.

warsaw2018 · 17-08-2018 07:53PM

batgoat wrote: »

Her point is that there are plenty of people who aren't comfortable with shaking hands for whatever reason. So you could argue they should integrate regardless of how much it puts out of comfort zone.

Well said mat
I've you I. Bit peopleI've never I. U put lry up have to respect there custom not traditions

Greentopia · 17-08-2018 08:07PM

Sand wrote: »

So Islam is equivalent to a disorder like Aspergers or autism? That's what we're now using to excuse this?

No, it's fundamentally about not discriminating against anyone who chooses a different way of greeting regardless of the underlying reasons for why they do so.

The news article linked previously explained-
The AD- (a special court who's purpose is to conduct judicial reviews in labour laws)- believed that the company's conduct was wrong and agreed with the ruling of the Ombudsman on Discrimination- DO. The court found that in order for Sweden to comply with the requirements of the European Convention, the Discrimination Act must cover this.

"Of course, it is reasonable for an employer to require employees to treat colleagues equally, but one must be able to greet in different ways," says Clas Lundstedt at DO.

Nothing about who this applies to because it applies to all now under their laws.

RandomName2 · 17-08-2018 08:43PM

Greentopia wrote: »

Exactly. And you raised an interesting point I hadn't thought of- what about people with conditions that make physical contact difficult if not impossible like people with Aspergers or autism? would that person who threw a strop behave the same way with them as they did this woman?

If someone if physically incapable of shaking hands due to a psychological or neurological disorder then that's a totally different story. You could theoretically say that being religious is a psychological disorder, but I don't think that would fly.

Greentopia wrote: »

or is it deemed acceptable behaviour because she's a Muslim and she should be damn well taught a lesson in the "correct" way to behave?

There is a correct way to behave. The correct way to behave is to shake someone's hand. Not doing so is deeply offensive. She felt that her personal beliefs trumped causing offense - and that's her perogative. Just don't expect people not to get offended when you do it!

If you are told that the OK symbol is deeply offensive in a country (which it is in some places) and you say, 'I don't care, where I come from we use that symbol all the time', then you are being an arsehole.

She was being an arsehole because she didn't care about their feelings. She probably didn't care if she caused offense because she felt that if she did offend them that she could take them to court. And she did. At least they didn't have to put up with her as an employee, so you could say they got off lightly.

Greentopia wrote: »

this issue is about upholding a strongly held ideal in that country- equality. "Alla är lika"- everyone is equal-meaning everyone should have equal value and worth, is a cornerstone of Swedish culture and democracy.

Her gripe was that they were men.

I'm going to let that sink in with you for a bit.

Edit: I wonder if she had a male escort. If she didn't she's just picking and choosing what dogma she wants to follow.

RandomName2 · 17-08-2018 08:47PM

warsaw2018 wrote: »

I've you I. Bit peopleI've never I. U put lry up have to respect there custom not traditions

I.. what?

Sweden Riots

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