Hungary Scrap Gender Studies Indoctrination Courses

Malayalam · 13-08-2018 02:19PM

Annabel Ambitious Tinsel wrote: »

If you want to ban postmodernist theorizing, you're going to have to cast your net far beyond gender studies. Departments of literature, cultural anthropology, sociology, and philosophy (to name but a few) also contain many academics with similar views. How far are you willing to go?

My point from the beginning is fund courses that balance the post modernist guff...yes! in all fields. We could only benefit intellectually as a species from more rigour and less ideology.

Rory28 · 13-08-2018 02:21PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You're really going to hold up Gender studies as comparable to these courses?

They are very comparable in the context that gender studies was scrapped. They provide nothing to the economy. This is not an effort to save money or to limit grants for courses which gain employment at the end of the degree. As far as I know it was only gender studies that got hit.

PlaneSpeeking · 13-08-2018 02:21PM

Annabel Ambitious Tinsel wrote: »

And if you want to fanny about studying ancient archeology or Greek philosophy or modern art?

Depends - archaeology absolutely, valid field of science.

The others ? Philosophy to a point, can have real world uses, it would depend on the line of study - some yes, some definitely no.

Fine Art yes, you could work as a restorer, curator, valuer etc etc. Modern Art -judging a blank wall or an unmade bed ? Sod off.

LLMMLL · 13-08-2018 02:22PM

Malayalam wrote: »

Uh yeah sorry I don't know what you are actually saying there. Research on a little studied period of Irish history sounds like valid empirical research. The new theory application sounds pretty normal too. My two University degrees must be inhibiting me from getting your point. See, in gender studies actual scientific data from hormonal, neurological and biological fields about why the sexes differ is put aside in favour of social constructivist theories that someone (Foucault et al) dragged out of their lovely bottoms.

Again, I think you’re imagining what’s in these courses.

Most of the modules in the course I looked at we’re literary theory and historiography based courses. It would be bizarre to try and integrate neuroscience in these courses.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 13-08-2018 02:24PM

Malayalam wrote: »

My point from the beginning is fund courses that balance the post modernist guff...yes! in all fields. We could only benefit intellectually as a species from more rigour and less ideology.

How would this work in practice, in a subject area such as English literature or history? How would one teach the novels of Charles Dickens in a way that focused on "rigour" and not on ideological issues such as poverty, workers' rights, and capitalism that are themselves evident in his writing? How does one teach the French Revolution without focusing on ideology?

13-08-2018 02:25PM

Taytoland wrote: »

If you believe it should be taught and funded then you should think similar for creationism right?

I imagine creationism is taught in some Theology modules...

13-08-2018 02:26PM

Annabel Ambitious Tinsel wrote: »

You asked "why fund Universities at all if they present courses that provide no benefit to the country?" I indicated that the Irish taxpayer is funding many courses that many would consider to provide minimal (if any) benefit to the country -- so where do you draw the line?

Well, it was in response to another poster with a different argument...

But where would I draw the line? I'd be inclined not to fund courses which use such dubious peer-reviewed research to justify their statements of fact.

You provided a list of subjects earlier which included topics like theology, Ancient Greek civilization, etc all of which have been investigated repeatedly for decades (in some cases centuries) to take apart conflicting ideas, about the message that they wish to present. And in the cases, where arguments exist to this day as to what is most relevant or "true", such discord is acknowledged and highlighted for students to be aware. Not so with Gender studies.

My issue remains with Gender Studies because of the message it seeks to promote and the dubious research used to 'prove' it. Grayson tried to present the idea that dodgy Peer-reviewed research is common in many disciplines, and he is right that it is... however, in the area of Gender studies, which has become a separate area to mainstream sociology or anthropology, the whole peer-review is an echo chamber of people with similar viewpoints or a direct involvement in continuing the pursuit of Gender studies. Other disciplines tend to have far greater scope of peer-review, and so the acceptance of "dodgy" ideas is reduced.

13-08-2018 02:27PM

Rory28 wrote: »

They are very comparable in the context that gender studies was scrapped. They provide nothing to the economy. This is not an effort to save money or to limit grants for courses which gain employment at the end of the degree. As far as I know it was only gender studies that got hit.

The link in the OP itself is very clear about why it was scrapped and how it wasn't just about employment

Malayalam · 13-08-2018 02:27PM

Rory28 wrote: »

They are very comparable in the context that gender studies was scrapped. They provide nothing to the economy. This is not an effort to save money or to limit grants for courses which gain employment at the end of the degree. As far as I know it was only gender studies that got hit.

Well the point is that graduates emerging from ancient Greek literature or such like won't get positions in policy making institutes telling us we must accept the lesser known Enneads as our new constitution (though God knows there might be little harm in that). Gender Studies graduates aim exactly for policy making positions to inform us all about our cruel patriarchal overlords who must be brought to heel by active legislation, in areas such as gender quotas, education protocols, the rights of trans identified police people to search bodies according to the sex they identify as, removal of words from public documents such as breast feeding being ''natural'' etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

Lux23 · 13-08-2018 02:29PM

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

The snowflakes must have put you on repeal shield. Both my personal account and my troll account are blocked by her too.

You have a troll account? So you can harass people?

Mackmatic · 13-08-2018 02:30PM

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

The snowflakes must have put you on repeal shield. Both my personal account and my troll account are blocked by her too.

A troll Twitter account? Are you for real?

If you are anything other than an edgy little 12 year old, then that is pretty pathetic and embarrassing.

Malayalam · 13-08-2018 02:31PM

Annabel Ambitious Tinsel wrote: »

How would this work in practice, in a subject area such as English literature or history? How would one teach the novels of Charles Dickens in a way that focused on "rigour" and not on ideological issues such as poverty, workers' rights, and capitalism that are themselves evident in his writing? How does one teach the French Revolution without focusing on ideology?

I think you are just going to have to read up a little more about post modernism.

Rory28 · 13-08-2018 02:32PM

Malayalam wrote: »

Well the point is that graduates emerging from ancient Greek literature or such like won't get positions in policy making institutes telling us we must accept the lesser known Enneads as our new constitution (though God knows there might be little harm in that). Gender Studies graduates aim exactly for policy making positions to inform us all about our cruel patriarchal overlords who must be brought to heel by active legislation, in areas such as gender quotas, education protocols, the rights of trans identified police people to search bodies according to the sex they identify as, removal of words from public documents such as breast feeding being ''natural'' etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

Thats a very niche trans issue but you are missing my point. The fact that it is gender studies is irrelevant. If you are going to scrap one frivolous subject you have to scrap them all. Singling out gender studies, whatever you opinion on it, is messed up.

The only jobs for graduates of ancient greek etc is exactly them positions in university's btw.

13-08-2018 02:32PM

Rory28 wrote: »

They are very comparable in the context that gender studies was scrapped. They provide nothing to the economy. This is not an effort to save money or to limit grants for courses which gain employment at the end of the degree. As far as I know it was only gender studies that got hit.

I don't get that logic, since these other courses listed weren't scrapped. Gender studies was scrapped since in his views (and I assume his supporters), it didn't provide any value and would generate conflict with Hungary's traditional culture.

I already stated my own belief that he didn't want the traditional male dominated society to be replaced with a female dominated society.

mvl · 13-08-2018 02:32PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

If you can get a job directly in the field of your degree (medicine, law, science, IT, etc etc) then you get a grant.

If you want to fanny about (pun intended) doing gender based nonsense - pay for it yourself.

Mentioning "pay for it yourself" does not apply in this context I am afraid.
The ban we are talking about seems to apply also to privately funded Hungarian universities, such as Central European University.
This is censorship for the wrong reasons.

- Sounds to me Republic of Gilead would be ok for you guys ?!?

PlaneSpeeking · 13-08-2018 02:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, it was in response to another poster with a different argument...

But where would I draw the line? I'd be inclined not to fund courses which use such dubious peer-reviewed research to justify their statements of fact.

You provided a list of subjects earlier which included topics like theology, Ancient Greek civilization, etc all of which have been investigated repeatedly for decades (in some cases centuries) to take apart conflicting ideas, about the message that they wish to present. And in the cases, where arguments exist to this day as to what is most relevant or "true", such discord is acknowledged and highlighted for students to be aware. Not so with Gender studies.

My issue remains with Gender Studies because of the message it seeks to promote and the dubious research used to 'prove' it. Grayson tried to present the idea that dodgy Peer-reviewed research is common in many disciplines, and he is right that it is... however, in the area of Gender studies, which has become a separate area to mainstream sociology or anthropology, the whole peer-review is an echo chamber of people with similar viewpoints or a direct involvement in continuing the pursuit of Gender studies. Other disciplines tend to have far greater scope of peer-review, and so the acceptance of "dodgy" ideas is reduced.

It's the fact no dissention is allowed. Imagine day one of the course and arguing that you believed women have political, financial and social equality of opportunity.

We can be what we want to be. Can we do everything ? Not necessarily but can anyone ?

Contrast that with when I studied Hamlet. I wrote an essay arguing that whilst he was suffering with grief, he wasn't "mad' per se and instead was very sharp. I argued that the reason for Ophelia's suicide may have had roots in her upbringing - strict overbearing father, lack of mother, seeing Gertrude as a mother figure and realising her treachery etc etc.

All went against what the teacher believed personally but I made rational arguments, quoted text etc and passed.

Gender studies and similar do not allow for that kind of critical questioning and that's why I believe they have no place in FE.

13-08-2018 02:33PM

Not sure what I'd do if my child wanted to study it.. Must be devastating for a family to have a child tragically lose 3/4s of their brain on purpose.

PlaneSpeeking · 13-08-2018 02:33PM

mvl wrote: »

Mentioning "pay for it yourself" does not apply in this context I am afraid.
The ban we are talking about seems to apply also to privately funded Hungarian universities, such as Central European University.
This is censorship for the wrong reasons.

- Sounds to me Republic of Gilead would be ok for you guys ?!?

Oh here we go again. I swear that's another reference no one made till they filmed the bloody book.

13-08-2018 02:36PM

Rory28 wrote: »

Thats a very niche trans issue but you are missing my point. The fact that it is gender studies is irrelevant. If you are going to scrap one frivolous subject you have to scrap them all. Singling out gender studies, whatever you opinion on it, is messed up.

Why? Why must we scrap every frivolous subject just because one was? Why is that messed up? I'm genuinely curious.

Malayalam · 13-08-2018 02:36PM

Rory28 wrote: »

Thats a very niche trans issue but you are missing my point. The fact that it is gender studies is irrelevant. If you are going to scrap one frivolous subject you have to scrap them all. Singling out gender studies, whatever you opinion on it, is messed up.

The only jobs for graduates of ancient greek etc is exactly them positions in university's btw.

I have said repeatedly I don't actually have a problem with Gender Studies per se. I have a problem with the lack of accredited academic refutation. That lack however I believe will be sorted out in the coming years. I think it's good that the contradictions are coming to light, in fact it is best they come rapidly and forcefully to the surface. Universities where there is a bias towards those kind of largely constructionist social sciences are finding their intake numbers dropping rapidly. Money will be lost and the market will determine what is useful. Eventually the majority of pragmatic people recognise when the emperor is missing his britches.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 13-08-2018 02:42PM

riffmongous wrote: »

The link in the OP itself is very clear about why it was scrapped and how it wasn't just about employment

Is it? The linked article actually offers a confusing mish-mash of justifications, such as:

1) Gender studies courses are "not economically viable as they take resources away from other academic fields"

2) These courses "produce undesirable graduates for the Hungarian job market"

3) The courses are a "wasteful luxury"

4) They are "destructive"

5) They are "destroying the values-centered mode of thinking that is still present in the countries of Central Europe"

6) They are "at odds with everything Fidesz's government stands for."

As you'll see, we end up with the claim that these course need to go because they're at odds with the right-wing, anti-immigration agenda of the current government -- which amounts to blatant state censorship. The rhetoric about these courses not producing desirable graduates, etc., looks like a polite rationalization for that censorship.

Rory28 · 13-08-2018 02:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why? Why must we scrap every frivolous subject just because one was? Why is that messed up? I'm genuinely curious.

Scrap the state funding I should say. The more courses the better but there should not be a flat rate for each course. An engineering degree should not cost the same as a degree in medieval literature. One is a career the other is a hobby.

I don't like that they single out one. It sets a precedent that is easily pushed.

Malayalam · 13-08-2018 02:44PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Oh here we go again. I swear that's another reference no one made till they filmed the bloody book.

A great book by one of my favourite authors. Haven't seen the series yet. The book is prescient. Although some of her whackier SF stuff like Oryx and Crake may prove to be even more so.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 13-08-2018 02:45PM

Malayalam wrote: »

I think you are just going to have to read up a little more about post modernism.

What do you recommend that I read?

PlaneSpeeking · 13-08-2018 02:47PM

Malayalam wrote: »

A great book by one of my favourite authors. Haven't seen the series yet. The book is prescient. Although some of her whackier SF stuff like Oryx and Crake may prove to be even more so.

I"m reading another by her about a woman in prison - Alias Grace it is.

Very very good. Highly recommend it.

Sometimes the TV series gets a bit preachy but there were parts that were chillingly familiar.

13-08-2018 02:48PM

Rory28 wrote: »

Scrap the state funding I should say. The more courses the better but there should not be a flat rate for each course. An engineering degree should not cost the same as a degree in medieval literature. One is a career the other is a hobby.

I don't like that they single out one. It sets a precedent that is easily pushed.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/oldest-greek-fragment-homer-discovered-clay-tablet-180969602/

How sad would it be if the ancient stuff stopped being taught and discoveries couldn't be made? I think it's a bit much to call studying the beginnings of civilisation merely a hobby.

Gender studies adds nothing to the world so I wouldn't really deem it as being singled out.

Malayalam · 13-08-2018 02:51PM

Annabel Ambitious Tinsel wrote: »

What do you recommend that I read?

Hmmmm, tough one, there are many options, but I found Guido Preparata's book ''The Ideology of Tyranny'' provided a pretty good historical track back from Foucault to Bataille and ultimately to the Marquis de Sade. It illustrates quite well how humans have been reduced in post modern philosophy from sacred beings (in the widest sense of that implication) to deterministic, mechanistic, nihilistic objects to be divided and thus conquered. Preparata has a heavily poetic style which can make his writing somewhat opaque, but overall it is informative.

mvl · 13-08-2018 02:51PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Oh here we go again. I swear that's another reference no one made till they filmed the bloody book.

Well thanks, but you haven't heard me saying anything about it.

One of my complaints (unlike half of the posters here) is about Orban's autocracy. But so many of you seem to be hooked up with the gender debate.

That's going on and on ... on so many threads already.

PlaneSpeeking · 13-08-2018 02:54PM

Malayalam wrote: »

Hmmmm, tough one, there are many options, but I found Guido Preparata's book ''The Ideology of Tyranny'' provided a pretty good historical track back from Foucault to Bataille and ultimately to the Marquis de Sade. It illustrates quite well how humans have been reduced in post modern philosophy from sacred beings (in the widest sense of that implication) to deterministic, mechanistic, nihilistic objects to be divided and thus conquered. Preparata has a heavily poetic style which can make his writing somewhat opaque, but overall it is informative.

I've read de Sade, cards on table - at 17 and I wanted to shock the nuns!

Very interesting though, not what you'd expect. You can't go wrong with Nietzsche in my opinion if you're seeking dark nihilism.

Machiavelli's "The Prince" is a damn good read too.

JohnMc1 · 13-08-2018 02:55PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I have that! Never bloody heard of her!!!!

Free speech indeed eh ?

EDIT - went in via no login:

Yeah she's lost it!

Oh and she has more - any lads who campaigned against the 8th and for repeal ? Apparently you didn't:

She needs professional help.

Someone is clearly in fear of losing a paycheck. These are ridiculous courses and do nothing but set students up for failure. Gender studies and these other _____ Studies courses [aka Black studies, Women Studies, Gay Studies, Latino Studies, Lesbian Dance theory] should only be elective course. Aka. You take them because they interest you. They should not be something you can major in and get degrees in.

Hungary Scrap Gender Studies Indoctrination Courses

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