Do I need planning permission to split house into 3 self contained studio flats

donalf · 11-08-2018 12:55PM #1

I have a 4 bed single story house close to Dublin city center. Am wondering if i need planning permission to split it into 3 units each with its own kitchen/lounge, bathroom, bedroom. Im thinking about 3 self contained studio apartments (each approx 33sqm) finished to a high spec ( underfloor heading, lots of natural light, wired smoke and fire system, high spec finish with good quality products throughout). I can do a lot of this work myself. I do not propose to make any changes to the existing structure or facade (just refurbish)

I know Im probably going to have to talk to an architect but expect that it maybe difficult to get proper advice on this. Am just trying to do some initial research. Any help really appreciated.

Stanford · 11-08-2018 12:58PM

You need planning because it is a change of use from residential to commercial and represents a significant intensification of use, you also will need fire and building regs certification

donalf · 11-08-2018 01:06PM

Thanks Stanford!

The house has been rented to students for the last 10-15 years ( by the previous owner ).

I didn't think change of use would apply as it would remain as residential letting ? Would register with PRTB etc.

( I would ensure all work is done inline with building & fire reg)

Stanford · 11-08-2018 01:12PM

Presumably its original function was to be a family dwelling so if you now derive income from it the LA could consider it a commercial residential property with an intensification of initial use, do you want to risk all that money on the changes to be possibly caught for having to apply for retention at some point in the future?

Why are you reluctant to get the opinion of a local Architect who is familiar with dealing with your local LA?

Victor · 11-08-2018 01:27PM

Subdivision of a residential property needs planning permission (combining them is easier). You will also need other approvals and certification.

donalf wrote: »

Im thinking about 3 self contained studio apartments (each approx 33sqm)

This size is too small. You probably need to be thinking of 40-45m2.

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/Planning/DublinCityDevelopmentPlan/Written%20Statement%20Volume%201.pdf

16.10.1 Residential Quality Standards –
Apartments
The standards for apartment developments
are set out in the Department of
Environment, Community and Local
Government guidelines entitled Sustainable
Urban Housing: Design Standards for
New Apartments – Guidelines for Planning
Authorities (December 2015), (www.
environ.ie), hereafter referred to as the
2015 Department Guidelines. In addition,
proposals for apartments shall comply with
the standards set out below and with the
requirements of other relevant development
standards including public open space, play
space, safety and security, and acoustic
privacy standards.
Floor Areas:
The minimum floor areas permissible are as
per the Sustainable Urban Housing:Design
Standards for New Apartments – Guidelines
for Planning Authorities, as follows:
Minimum overall apartment floor area*
 Studio-type 40 sq.m
 1-bed 45 sq.m
 2-bed 73 sq.m
 3-bed 90 sq.m
* All apartment floor area measurements are
taken from internal wall-to-wall dimensions.

There are other requirements.

sydthebeat · 11-08-2018 01:28PM

donalf wrote: »

Thanks Stanford!

The house has been rented to students for the last 10-15 years ( by the previous owner ).

I didn't think change of use would apply as it would remain as residential letting ? Would register with PRTB etc.

( I would ensure all work is done inline with building & fire reg)

You absolutely need planning permission otherwise its unauthorised

Gumbo · 11-08-2018 01:43PM

donalf wrote: »

Thanks Stanford!

The house has been rented to students for the last 10-15 years ( by the previous owner ).

I didn't think change of use would apply as it would remain as residential letting ? Would register with PRTB etc.

( I would ensure all work is done inline with building & fire reg)

That’s not good enough to say you will do the works in line with regulations.
To do so, you need to apply for planning. Then get a fire safety cert. then get a disabled access cert.
then appoint an assigned certifier and carry out the works.

Idbatterim · 11-08-2018 01:51PM

Victor wrote: »

Subdivision of a residential property needs planning permission (combining them is easier). You will also need other approvals and certification. This size is too small. You probably need to be thinking of 40-45m2.

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/Planning/DublinCityDevelopmentPlan/Written%20Statement%20Volume%201.pdfThere are other requirements.

its not too small, I measured out my apartment the other day, 40 sq m, the bathroom is comfortably big enough for a bath etc. The bedroom is bigger than any of the bedrooms in my four bed family home. There is a 2 sq m storage cupboard also. 33 sq m would be fine...

Victor · 11-08-2018 02:31PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

33 sq m would be fine...

But, on the face of it, not legal.

BryanF · 11-08-2018 05:28PM

Planning required

http://www.meath.ie/CountyCouncil/Planning/MakingAPlanningApplication/PlanningPermissionApplicationsinBusiness/File,3811,en.pdf

And apartment sizing
https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad%2C1979%2Cen.pdf

And building regs
https://www.housing.gov.ie/housing/building-standards/tgd-part-d-materials-and-workmanship/technical-guidance-documents

And building control regs
https://www.louthcoco.ie/en/Services/Building_Control/Building-Control-Legislation/

Mahogany Gaspipe · 12-08-2018 05:50PM

Get a set of plans drawn up and get cracking.
They'll go overboard with doing things by the book here.

Ask for forgiveness rather than permission.

Calahonda52 · 12-08-2018 07:09PM

Mahogany Gaspipe wrote: »

Get a set of plans drawn up and get cracking.
They'll go overboard with doing things by the book here.

Ask for forgiveness rather than permission.

Useful contribution, especially when dealing with other peoples money and other peoples lives.

OP: three separate elec/water/ [and gas if applicable] meters
You will require separate rising mains
Cable size to house may need upgrading.

Self closing fire doors throughout

Mahogany Gaspipe · 12-08-2018 08:17PM

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Useful contribution, especially when dealing with other peoples money and other peoples lives.

OP: three separate elec/water/ [and gas if applicable] meters
You will require separate rising mains
Cable size to house may need upgrading.

Self closing fire doors throughout

What are you waffling on about?

BryanF · 12-08-2018 09:25PM

Mahogany Gaspipe wrote: »

Get a set of plans drawn up and get cracking.
They'll go overboard with doing things by the book here.

Ask for forgiveness rather than permission.

We obey the law.

Read the forum charter before posting again,

do not respond to this on thread

If you have any questions PM any of the mods

Mahogany Gaspipe · 12-08-2018 09:33PM

BryanF wrote: »

We obey the law.

Read the forum charter before posting again,

do not respond to this on thread

If you have any questions PM any of the mods

Aye aye Capt'

donalf · 12-08-2018 10:56PM

Thanks for all the feedback on this.

It seems like I would need to get planning in order to be compliant. Going down the planning road might not make sense from a financial perspective. A few quick questions:

- would i still need planning of i were to keep the 3 studios open plan ? ( in the true sense of the word studio )

- a quick look at daft website shows lots of small flats that have been refurbished and are for rent .. there are thousands of multi dwelling houses in Dublin eg., 8 Flats in one house - do they need planning or they just taking a risk ?

Victor · 13-08-2018 01:34AM

donalf wrote: »

Going down the planning road might not make sense from a financial perspective.

How does a few thousand euros for drawings and application fees radically alter your plan? The amount of construction work required would be exactly the same.

- would i still need planning of i were to keep the 3 studios open plan ? ( in the true sense of the word studio )

Yes. You need the planning permission for the subdivision, not for the room layout.

- a quick look at daft website shows lots of small flats that have been refurbished and are for rent .. there are thousands of multi dwelling houses in Dublin eg., 8 Flats in one house - do they need planning or they just taking a risk ?

Many of these will either (a) be 'pre-63', that is they were converted before 1963, when planning permission first became a requirement, (b) have obtained planning permission if after 1963 or (c) be non-compliant.

Lumen · 13-08-2018 06:08AM

I thought all the pre-63s were non compliant since a couple of years ago.

BryanF · 13-08-2018 06:17AM

Mahogany Gaspipe wrote: »

Aye aye Capt'

Have a week off

Victor · 13-08-2018 06:53AM

Lumen wrote: »

I thought all the pre-63s were non compliant since a couple of years ago.

They need to be self-contained, with their own bathroom and kitchen. A pure bedsit, that is purely a bedroom-sitting room is no longer legal.

myshirt · 13-08-2018 06:55AM

Not only do you need planning permission, you haven't an asses chance in hell of getting it.

Lumen · 13-08-2018 07:22AM

Victor wrote: »

They need to be self-contained, with their own bathroom and kitchen. A pure bedsit, that is purely a bedroom-sitting room is no longer legal.

I thought that the changes required to make them compliant with housing standards triggered material alteration conditions which brings in building/fire regs which they couldn't meet without crazy money being spent, and that since the landlords weren't the crazy money spending types, in practice they were taken out of use pending conversion to family homes or whatever.

Maybe rents are so high now there is an incentive to modernize them.

Gumbo · 13-08-2018 08:58AM

Lumen wrote: »

I thought that the changes required to make them compliant with housing standards triggered material alteration conditions which brings in building/fire regs which they couldn't meet without crazy money being spent, and that since the landlords weren't the crazy money spending types, in practice they were taken out of use pending conversion to family homes or whatever.

Maybe rents are so high now there is an incentive to modernize them.

In most cases that came across my desk, the work required to bring them into compliance with the minimum rented housing standards meant they had to alter the number of apartments to give each unit more space to allow for the cooking, washing facilities etc

This alteration of unit numbers meant they needed planning, fire cert and DAC exactly as you say.

We had 3 types, the landlords that paid out to comply, the landlords that sold up and then the landlords that converted back to a single dwelling as planning was not required.

Do I need planning permission to split house into 3 self contained studio flats

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