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Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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Comments

  • #572
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,208 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Despite everything I think there will be enormous crowds for the visit that will surprise some people and annoy others.

    Good in my opinion.

    Anything that pisses off the likes of Una Mullally is fine with me. Sanctimonious biddy.


  • #573
    work
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭work


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    As someone who has worked in the huamnitarian sector in Africa, food isnt sent to Africa. It just isnt. It is a myth that people are starving for want of food. Disease and malnutrition is the problem.


    More Drivel. Is malnutrition not due to poor food intake in most cases (except for intestinal absorptive issues)?


  • #574
    work
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭work


    https://www.rte.ie/news/the-pope-in-ireland/2018/0802/982627-pope-francis-ireland-visit/


    Link above already posted in this thread. This, I think, is as good a protest as we will get. Not organized by the usual loudspeaker brigade. Slightly monotone in that it is about abuse while the concerns of the church are much bigger that that. Anyway I will go along and suggest if anyone wants to protest to consider this.
    There are a lot of "I do not care" people but their inaction will achieve nothing to speed up the division of religion and state.


  • #575
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Forcing priests to have no contact with children is only a recent action made when people found out what the traditional culture within the RCC was when it came to managing paedophiles. The RCC did not volunteer to take this approach. They were forced to because they had been exposed.
    And you seriously think that is a caring attitude towards victims?

    Not true. Child Protection guidelines were voluntarily adopted by every diocese and parish to put minds at peace - and after false accusations had been made.. Norah Walls etc.
    No church worker who is an unrelated adult is allowed to be in sole charge of children. Always two adults. So priests are allowed.
    As I am classed as a church worker, I respect that fully. My former landlord who became a good friend, wanted to leave his kids with me once,and was really upset when I explained. "But I trust you!"


  • #576
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Omar Orange Ignoramus wrote: »
    The previous chap, Ben did wear red leather slippers/loafers, from his personal cobbler, made in a similar style to Prada's luxury collection.

    One of Ben's nicknames was 'the Prada Pope' due to the accessories.
    'The devil wears Prada' apparently, some would say.

    Previous to this JP2 used to wear a Rolex (DateJust) likely worth enough $6,000, to feed an entire small African village for a year.

    Think Francis has wisely turned down most luxury accessories, opting for simpler black leather shoes. He also prefers a simple Casio or Swatch watches. After all a watches primary purpose if simply to tell the time.

    The rolex like the cars etc was a gift.


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  • #577
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Graces7 wrote: »
    The rolex like the cars etc was a gift.
    Kind of irrelevant though.

    The spirit of the vow of poverty is that individuals in the religious life do not recognise ownership over possessions, but rather maintain that which is required by their community, for communal use.

    It shouldn't matter whether something comes by way of earning, or a gift, or found on the side of the road, it should be dispersed for communal use, not held in personal ownership.

    Where communal use is impractical, say like a watch, then it should be sold for the communal good.

    That is the core of the vow of poverty; the completel giving of oneself for their community and shunning of all worldly possession.

    No doubt, there are some codes or rules around this that make exception for "gifts", but that just further illustrates the joke that is canon law and the fact that it's just made up as they go along to best suit their own personal needs.

    No doubt some Pope was receiving gifts but realised that his vow of poverty meant he couldn't keep them, so instead decreed that it was actually OK; gifts can be kept for personal use. Sure that's still poverty, isn't it?


  • #578
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,861 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Not true. Child Protection guidelines were voluntarily adopted by every diocese and parish to put minds at peace - and after false accusations had been made.. Norah Walls etc.
    No church worker who is an unrelated adult is allowed to be in sole charge of children. Always two adults. So priests are allowed.
    As I am classed as a church worker, I respect that fully. My former landlord who became a good friend, wanted to leave his kids with me once,and was really upset when I explained. "But I trust you!"

    You say this as if they had a choice!


  • #579
    Dick phelan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,607 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    For those who want to attend and celebrate let them, not happy that taxpayer money is being spent on it tho. Surely in a secular country we don't need pay for the visit of a religious leader. I'v heard it's mainly being funded by donations so what is the actual cost to the taxpayer?


  • #580
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Dick phelan wrote: »
    For those who want to attend and celebrate let them, not happy that taxpayer money is being spent on it tho. Surely in a secular country we don't need pay for the visit of a religious leader. I'v heard it's mainly being funded by donations so what is the actual cost to the taxpayer?

    Barely anything save policing/security etc and that will be made back with increased visitors - same as with the Queen not long back.

    But sure that's never going to be accepted by the bash the Church crowd.


  • #581
    Whispered
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    How much is this costing the country? If you think it's ok for money to go towards this visit while we have children sleeping rough, then I think it's time to closely examine whatever Christian values you hold.


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  • #582
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Whispered wrote: »
    How much is this costing the country? If you think it's ok for money to go towards this visit while we have children sleeping rough, then I think it's time to closely examine whatever Christian values you hold.

    See above.


  • #583
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,934 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Dick phelan wrote: »
    For those who want to attend and celebrate let them, not happy that taxpayer money is being spent on it tho. Surely in a secular country we don't need pay for the visit of a religious leader. I'v heard it's mainly being funded by donations so what is the actual cost to the taxpayer?




    are those donations paying for the garda overtime or the free public transport for the day?


  • #584
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    are those donations paying for the garda overtime or the free public transport for the day?

    Another one who cannot read.

    No, this will cost but it will be more than covered by the increased number of visitors to the city/country.

    It's a shame when people let bigotry blind them to simple economics.


  • #585
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,067 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Barely anything save policing/security etc and that will be made back with increased visitors - same as with the Queen not long back.

    But sure that's never going to be accepted by the bash the Church crowd.

    There has been very little debate about the money involved.

    The substantive debate about the protesting of the popes visit revolve about the litany of child rape and abuse scandals and the continuing misogyny of the CC


  • #586
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,934 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Another one who cannot read.

    No, this will cost but it will be more than covered by the increased number of visitors to the city/country.

    It's a shame when people let bigotry blind them to simple economics.


    so how many external visitors will this visit bring in and what will there average spend be?


  • #587
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    So the cost of the lads visit is being covered by the church and donations. Hopefully the same energy will be put in to finding the money the religious still owe the survivors of abuse and the state. I will however refrain from holding my breathe.


  • #588
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    so how many external visitors will this visit bring in and what will there average spend be?

    "Their".

    Do I have a crystal ball ? No. But according to Failte Ireland, the visits of Barack Obama and Queen Elizabeth brought in almost 290m euro - just in publicity for Ireland alone. This was around 270m more than every single cost to the taxpayer.

    http://www.failteireland.ie/Utility/News-Library/Queen-and-Obama-bring-advertising-boost-for-Irish.aspx

    For example, the first four series of Game of Thrones created hundreds if not thousands of jobs in the North and brought it nearly 100m euro in tourism.

    Do I know what each tourist will spend, and how many of them there will be ?

    No, no one does - but there will be many and given I work in Dublin and see the prices I would imagine a fair spend per head.

    Look I get it, you don't like the Pope, or religion or faith or whatever - but a small amount of spending to bring this visit to fruition will bring rewards at least tenfold. Unless you are so small minded than you let personal prejudices get in the way of a boost for the country ?

    I'd also argue a damn sight many more people would want to attend Mass with the Holy Father than see the Queen or the US President - and their numbers were huge.


  • #589
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    So the cost of the lads visit is being covered by the church and donations. Hopefully the same energy will be put in to finding the money the religious still owe the survivors of abuse and the state. I will however refrain from holding my breathe.

    "The religious" owe nothing.

    Some individual church members do.


  • #590
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,067 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    "The religious" owe nothing.

    Some individual church members do.

    Not all religious, jut those connected to the CC. I

    Do you think the institutional cover up should go unpunished?


  • #591
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,934 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    "Their".

    Do I have a crystal ball ? No. But according to Failte Ireland, the visits of Barack Obama and Queen Elizabeth brought in almost 290m euro - just in publicity for Ireland alone. This was around 270m more than every single cost to the taxpayer.

    http://www.failteireland.ie/Utility/News-Library/Queen-and-Obama-bring-advertising-boost-for-Irish.aspx

    For example, the first four series of Game of Thrones created hundreds if not thousands of jobs in the North and brought it nearly 100m euro in tourism.

    Do I know what each tourist will spend, and how many of them there will be ?

    No, no one does - but there will be many and given I work in Dublin and see the prices I would imagine a fair spend per head.

    Look I get it, you don't like the Pope, or religion or faith or whatever - but a small amount of spending to bring this visit to fruition will bring rewards at least tenfold. Unless you are so small minded than you let personal prejudices get in the way of a boost for the country ?

    I'd also argue a damn sight many more people would want to attend Mass with the Holy Father than see the Queen or the US President - and their numbers were huge.


    You are the one claiming that the visit bring in more income than it will cost the country. You seem to get very upset every time somebody asks you to back up something you claim.


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  • #592
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    PlaneSpeeking wrote:
    Look I get it, you don't like the Pope, or religion or faith or whatever - but a small amount of spending to bring this visit to fruition will bring rewards at least tenfold. Unless you are so small minded than you let personal prejudices get in the way of a boost for the country ?


    Once the country gets a few bob all is good, even to the extent to get that money the leader of an organisation that was involved in the wholesale abuse of women and children is welcomed here. Anyone with an issue it's just a personal prejudice? Again though once the money rolls in.


  • #593
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    PlaneSpeeking wrote:
    "The religious" owe nothing.


    I'll correct myself. Religious orders. Better?


  • #594
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So you think the institutional cover up should go unpunished?

    Nice Cathy Newman attempt there.

    Unpunished, no. Anyone who laid a hand on a child should be punished. Anyone who it has been proved knew, should be jailed also.

    But I fail to see how a nun born in the 80s is somehow responsible for the sins of a priest in her diocese long since dead.

    The wrong people are being punished - it's now revenge rather than justice.

    If any money went to counselling I'd have no problem but handing over hundreds of thouands that could and should be used for charitable reasons is wrong.

    I had the living sh**e knocked out of me for 16 years by nuns, my dad and granddad were taught by the Christian Brothers.

    I don't expect a bean nor would I seek it out.


  • #595
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    You are the one claiming that the visit bring in more income than it will cost the country. You seem to get very upset every time somebody asks you to back up something you claim.

    So ignore the evidence in the post - which YOU asked for - and instead make a personal attack ? Nice.

    Done engaging with you, just not worth it.


  • #596
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,067 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Right, so your position is that the people seeking compensation should instead seek to have that money sent to charitable causes.

    But you want the church to have the final decision over how much, when and to who?

    So now you want to blame the victims for looking for compensation?

    Justice? Is justice covering up a crime? Is justice attacking a person when you know that they are telling the truth? Is justice moving rapists to a different part of the country rather than have them face justice?

    You are absolutely right in that the wrong people were punished. The people who tried to speak out, who tried to raise concerns with the CC. They were attacked and vilified. They were cast as trying to ruin the CC, and the good work of the priest.

    Whilst you came back with a pithy one liner, you failed to answer the question? Do you think a person has the right to sue an organisation when something that they permitted happened or is it solely the responsibility of the employee that carried it out?

    Do you think VW, for example in terms of the emissions scandal, should be sued, or just the employees that actually did the test despite top management knowing about it? For you are arguing that it should only be the individuals. If you agree on VW, why should it be different for the CC?


  • #597
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Right, so your position is that the people seeking compensation should instead seek to have that money sent to charitable causes.

    But you want the church to have the final decision over how much, when and to who?

    So now you want to blame the victims for looking for compensation?

    Justice? Is justice covering up a crime? Is justice attacking a person when you know that they are telling the truth? Is justice moving rapists to a different part of the country rather than have them face justice?

    You are absolutely right in that the wrong people were punished. The people who tried to speak out, who tried to raise concerns with the CC. They were attacked and vilified. They were cast as trying to ruin the CC, and the good work of the priest.

    Whilst you came back with a pithy one liner, you failed to answer the question? Do you think a person has the right to sue an organisation when something that they permitted happened or is it solely the responsibility of the employee that carried it out?

    Do you think VW, for example in terms of the emissions scandal, should be sued, or just the employees that actually did the test despite top management knowing about it? For you are arguing that it should only be the individuals. If you agree on VW, why should it be different for the CC?

    When you are able to respond without trying to make up what you want someone to have said, "so you're saying...." - I'll get back to you.


  • #598
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,067 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    It it your position is that the people seeking compensation should instead seek to have that money sent to charitable causes?

    But do you want the church to have the final decision over how much, when and to who?

    It appears that you want to blame the victims for looking for compensation?

    Justice? Is justice covering up a crime? Is justice attacking a person when you know that they are telling the truth? Is justice moving rapists to a different part of the country rather than have them face justice?

    You are absolutely right in that the wrong people were punished. The people who tried to speak out, who tried to raise concerns with the CC. They were attacked and vilified. They were cast as trying to ruin the CC, and the good work of the priest.

    Whilst you came back with a pithy one liner, you failed to answer the question? Do you think a person has the right to sue an organisation when something that they permitted happened or is it solely the responsibility of the employee that carried it out?

    What is position on the VW emissions scandal for example. Should the orgainsation be sued, or just the employees that actually did the test despite top management knowing about it? For you are arguing that it should only be the individuals. If you agree on VW, why should it be different for the CC?

    There you go.


  • #599
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    PlaneSpeeking wrote:
    When you are able to respond without trying to make up what you want someone to have said, "so you're saying...." - I'll get back to you.

    So you have no answer to what the poster asked?


  • #600
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,362 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    No, this will cost but it will be more than covered by the increased number of visitors to the city/country.

    Really? It's August. Hotels in Dublin and in most other places will be full anyway.

    So maybe what you're really getting at is that it'll give some of them an excuse to jack up prices?

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



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  • #601
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,362 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    But I fail to see how a nun born in the 80s

    Ah come on. How many nuns born in the 80s are there? Are there even any?
    The wrong people are being punished

    Nobody is being punished for the cover-up, and financially the RCC is laughing all the way to the bank while giving the taxpayer the metaphorical finger.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



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