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Why the north outside EU changes everything for the island

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    #122
    Taytoland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Taytoland


    They can continue to use the pound after independence. Bank of England or rump UK government can't stop them.

    They rejoin the EU and will have an obligation to join the Euro - eventually - in practice this can be put off for as long as they want.

    If only you could post gifs on this forum, the clutching at straws one would be needed for this post. You want people to  vote to leave a Union which is 300 years old on assumptions, hopefully, maybe with no evidence of any of it.


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    #123
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Aegir wrote: »
    They would have. That wasn’t a lie.

    They would have had a hard border as well, so the SNP were lieing

    Well a lot voted on the basis of staying in the EU. Now they won't be able to rejoin the EU unless they apply as an independent country. So yes the conditions for Scottish independence are completely different now.


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    #124
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Taytoland wrote: »
    If only you could post gifs on this forum, the clutching at straws one would be needed for this post. You want people to  vote to leave a Union which is 300 years old on assumptions, hopefully, maybe with no evidence of any of it.

    I don't see the age of the union as relevant?


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    #125
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Taytoland wrote: »
    Remain didn't win 2014 because of the EU issue, it won because Scottish Independence was just not practical economically and Alex Salmond plans got exposed in the months leading up to the vote. They had plenty of debate on the issue and month and months to discuss the issue.

    But no evidence has been given to me that would show Scotland being able to keep the pound and join the Euro. If someone can provide some, it would be gratefully received.

    How could the rest of the UK prevent Scotland keeping the pound?


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    #126
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Taytoland wrote: »
    But no evidence has been given to me that would show Scotland being able to keep the pound and join the Euro. If someone can provide some, it would be gratefully received.

    There being no precedent for those that precise case, the request for such evidence is a nonsense request, and the lack of the evidence does not show that Scotland couldnt have been able to keep the pound and join the EU.
    One can only consider what would likely or possibly have occurred had that situation come about.

    And the conclusion can only be that they could have kept the pound, and could have joined the EU (which I assume is what you mean by join the euro).
    There are and have been many cases of one country pegging its currencies to another - effectively having the same currency, even if that means being at the mercy of the second country's monetary policy. As close to home as Eire and the Irish pound up to 1979.

    And there are no cases of the EU not letting a state in its region join, particularly on e which in this case would already have been a member, and therefore met all conditions for membership without further alignment. The EU is about integration and keeping its members together, not jettisoning them. That Scotland would in anyway have been punished for leaving the UK, or be seen not to be EU member material is simply preposterous. They would have joined.


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    #127
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Its happened since the CTA came into being. Are you one of the thicks that think a hard Britex means walls, barbed wire and watch towers like they had on the inner German border before socialism/communism failed in the East in 1989?

    Get a grip and get real. That twat Tony Connolly on RTE would have people think a new Berlin wall is about to go up.

    Not one of the Irish media outlets has mentioned the CTA. Just the "EU good, Britex bad", "Hard border" etc.

    https://www.google.ie/search?q=common+travel+area&client=opera&hs=K9i&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP6ZSUptbcAhVNyxoKHeztCnsQ_AUICigB&biw=1496&bih=755

    Plenty of mentions there.


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    #128
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well a lot voted on the basis of staying in the EU. Now they won't be able to rejoin the EU unless they apply as an independent country. So yes the conditions for Scottish independence are completely different now.

    And a lot voted on the basis it would take them out of the Eu.

    The Eu is incredibly unpopular in parts of Scotland and those parts are SNP strongholds as well.


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    #129
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,252 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Taytoland wrote: »
    If only you could post gifs on this forum, the clutching at straws one would be needed for this post. You want people to  vote to leave a Union which is 300 years old on assumptions, hopefully, maybe with no evidence of any of it.

    Your failure to counter any argument with facts is noted.

    They joined the union in the first place on the basis of threats, promises, bribery, and lies, same as Ireland did in 1800.

    It is a fact that an independent Scotland can continue to use the pound for as long as they want. They can transition to the euro at a time of their own choosing.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #130
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Your failure to counter any argument with facts is noted.

    They joined the union in the first place on the basis of threats, promises, bribery, and lies, same as Ireland did in 1800.

    It is a fact that an independent Scotland can continue to use the pound for as long as they want. They can transition to the euro at a time of their own choosing.
    The Scots bottled it when they had the chance and the SNP got a straightener in the last General election . That with One Third of SNP voters voting for Brexit has softened the SNP’s cough .

    This Brexit thingy has support from a lot of places and has given British politics the damn fine kicking up the @ss it so badly needed . The Elites getting a damn fine taste of Democracy . Its a beautiful thing .


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    #131
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,764 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I know right. Try explaining that to Brexiters though. If 32% of all business in a country are having a down turn it's not a good thing. I think Brexiter's idea of economics is that a country is doing great unless 100% of companies are having a down turn. Even then it's fingers in the ears and rule Brittania all the way.

    There was a guy on Sky News the other night, a Brexiteer, and he was criticising "Project Fear" for claiming that 10,000 city jobs would be lost in London azs aa result of Brexit. He literally took great delight in stating that only 5,000 jobs would be lost...I mean FFS, how do these chancers get away with comments like that. Now it's ok that only 5,000 City jobs (and bear in mind a lot of these will be very well paid jobs) will be lost, but hey the Brits will get blue passports...


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    #132
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,764 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    cournioni wrote: »
    I can’t see the nationalist population standing for what they would become, should a hard border come into place.

    The problem being some Loyalists won't stand for an Irish Sea border...it's hard to see an easy solution to this.

    I think we will see a second referendum...for NI only...stay in the Customs Union have a frictionless border with the Republic and an Irish Sea border with GB, or leave the Customs Union and have a hard border with the Republic. The vote may even take place before the end of the year, as an answer will be needed before Brexit Day in March.

    It could be very messy.


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    #133
    Taytoland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Taytoland


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Taytoland wrote: »
    If only you could post gifs on this forum, the clutching at straws one would be needed for this post. You want people to  vote to leave a Union which is 300 years old on assumptions, hopefully, maybe with no evidence of any of it.

    Your failure to counter any argument with facts is noted.

    They joined the union in the first place on the basis of threats, promises, bribery, and lies, same as Ireland did in 1800.

    It is a fact that an independent Scotland can continue to use the pound for as long as they want. They can transition to the euro at a time of their own choosing.
    I am asking for facts to back up that Scotland could keep the pound and join the EU. It simply can't. Any new state which joins the EU and all of it's forms must sign up to the Euro currency. For Scotland to leave the Union and then having to rejoin the EU they would be absolutely expected to sign up to the Euro currency.


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    #134
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bilston wrote: »
    There was a guy on Sky News the other night, a Brexiteer, and he was criticising "Project Fear" for claiming that 10,000 city jobs would be lost in London azs aa result of Brexit. He literally took great delight in stating that only 5,000 jobs would be lost...I mean FFS, how do these chancers get away with comments like that. Now it's ok that only 5,000 City jobs (and bear in mind a lot of these will be very well paid jobs) will be lost, but hey the Brits will get blue passports...
    Brexit or no Brexit, many jobs in the financial sector are being lost due to the continued advances in technology and artificial intelligence. More and more jobs are being done by computers these days.


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    #135
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Taytoland wrote: »
    You want people to  vote to leave a Union which is 300 years old on assumptions, hopefully, maybe with no evidence of any of it.

    Your current "Union" is a paltry 96 years old, from 6 December 1922. Younger than many a granny. If anything, it's well overdue another fundamental change. It's a very strange world where political frameworks which were invented centuries ago - like England's imposed rule on Ireland, her institutionally sectarian monarchy, her unelected House of Lords (and its anti-Catholicism, too) and ruling over people beyond England that you've abused for centuries - are seen as worthy of being kept no matter how much the world changes or how much that framework is today essentially a claim of continuing English dominance in a world where England is now, at very best, a medium-level player in military, political & economic terms. The penny will drop soon enough.


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    #136
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Your failure to counter any argument with facts is noted.

    They joined the union in the first place on the basis of threats, promises, bribery, and lies, same as Ireland did in 1800.

    It is a fact that an independent Scotland can continue to use the pound for as long as they want. They can transition to the euro at a time of their own choosing.

    Usually, when someone accuses a poster of not basing their post on facts, they follow it up with actual facts, not a load of rubbish.

    The Scots ( at the third time of asking) wanted a union because they had just ****ed their entire economy on the flawed Darien scheme. There were no lies or threats and the only bribery was to for the English to bail them out of the ****.

    Of course the scouts could continue to use sterling if they wanted to, but they would be subject to English monetary policy which may not be in their best interest and would be an odd sort of independence.


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    #137
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,273 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    Usually, when someone accuses a poster of not basing their post on facts, they follow it up with actual facts, not a load of rubbish.

    The Scots ( at the third time of asking) wanted a union because they had just ****ed their entire economy on the flawed Darien scheme. There were no lies or threats and the only bribery was to for the English to bail them out of the ****.

    Of course the scouts could continue to use sterling if they wanted to, but they would be subject to English monetary policy which may not be in their best interest and would be an odd sort of independence.

    English monetary policy is very soon gonna get interesting.


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    #138
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,921 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Taytoland wrote: »
    The EU is notoriously inflexible. They have clear lines on many issues and rarely if ever budge on them. So absolutely no guarantees on Scotland joining the EU.
    Scotland would be a good candidate to join EFTA though. Getting most of the EU benefits while retaining control of food and energy. They could keep using the pound and stay in the CTA. Free movement would be a problem for the English because Scotland woudn't have to join Schengen.

    EU is flexible. Northern Ireland can sort of remain in EU the if the UK agree. EU isn't forcing a deal on the UK. The UK is free to pick anything on the menu, just like everyone else had to.


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    #139
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Scotland would be a good candidate to join EFTA though. Getting most of the EU benefits while retaining control of food and energy. They could keep using the pound and stay in the CTA. Free movement would be a problem for the English because Scotland woudn't have to join Schengen.

    EU is flexible. Northern Ireland can sort of remain in EU the if the UK agree. EU isn't forcing a deal on the UK. The UK is free to pick anything on the menu, just like everyone else had to.

    So Scotland would have to accept English monetary policy with no say and all Eu laws with no say.

    Great independence.


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    #140
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,273 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    So Scotland would have to accept English monetary policy with no say and all Eu laws with no say.

    Great independence.

    The delusion of the Brexiteer that the UK is buying independence. The UK has never been 'independent'. Having to ride shotgun for various US admins should tell you that.


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    #141
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The delusion of the Brexiteer that the UK is buying independence. The UK has never been 'independent'. Having to ride shotgun for various US admins should tell you that.

    Oh god, who rattled your cage?

    What the **** are you on about now?


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    #142
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,921 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Aegir wrote: »
    So Scotland would have to accept English monetary policy with no say and all Eu laws with no say.

    Great independence.
    That's EXACTLY what they have today.


    Except in the future they wouldn't have to accept Westminster laws, and could drop Sterling.


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    #143
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    That's EXACTLY what they have today.


    Except in the future they wouldn't have to accept Westminster laws, and could drop Sterling.

    They just have to accept Brussels ones instead and take the euro.


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    #144
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,921 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    A hard Brexit is estimated to cost Britain 10% of its economy. Let's see if the damage to Britain's economy is greater than 350 million a week and then we'll see if it's worth it.
    UK tax revenues are already down by £440 million a week due to lost growth.



    And Brexit hasn't happened yet.

    £350m a week is cheap compared to
    In 2015, queues of 4,600 lorries stretched back 30 miles and the daily cost to the UK economy was estimated at £250m.


    Big companies in NI need East West trade
    SME's rely more on North South.
    The really big companies depend on things like EU access too


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    #145
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,273 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    Oh god, who rattled your cage?

    What the **** are you on about now?

    :)

    You did, prattling on about the delusion of independence.

    It isn't what Brexiteers think it is.


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    #146
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    :)

    You did, prattling on about the delusion of independence.

    It isn't what Brexiteers think it is.

    Nope. Still no idea what you’re on about.


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    #147
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,273 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    Nope. Still no idea what you’re on about.

    You will when Brexiteers get their 'independence'. :rolleyes:


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    #148
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,671 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Years of war and division and potentially the reunification vote will be brought about simply by the amount of cash in peoples pockets.


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    #149
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You will when Brexiteers get their 'independence'. :rolleyes:
    Oh the Irony, when Irish republicans talk about independence as if they are the only people on the planet that crave it, while decrying others that have similar aspirations.


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    #150
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,273 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Oh the Irony, when Irish republicans talk about independence as if they are the only people on the planet that crave it, while decrying others that have similar aspirations.


    This republican wants independence from the UK. This republican understands how the world works.
    There is no such thing as the 'independence' Brexiteers prattle on about. The era they relish and lament was not an era of UK independence, they were in hock during most of it.
    Now they ride shotgun for the nation that saved them from de Germans.

    What are they gonna do with the gleaming new aircraft carriers when they become 'independent'? Re-colonise the world?


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    #151
    Folkstonian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Folkstonian


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Taytoland wrote: »
    You want people to  vote to leave a Union which is 300 years old on assumptions, hopefully, maybe with no evidence of any of it.

    Your current "Union" is a paltry 96 years old, from 6 December 1922. Younger than many a granny. If anything, it's well overdue another fundamental change. It's a very strange world where political frameworks which were invented centuries ago - like England's imposed rule on Ireland, her institutionally sectarian monarchy, her unelected House of Lords (and its anti-Catholicism, too) and ruling over people beyond England that you've abused for centuries - are seen as worthy of being kept no matter how much the world changes or how much that framework is today essentially a claim of continuing English dominance in a world where England is now, at very best, a medium-level player in military, political & economic terms. The penny will drop soon enough.

    Your posts often seem to bristle with a quite aggressive hostility towards England. It’s both disconcerting and intriguing for someone like me who is originally from there but spends lots of time in Ireland nowadays. You should visit some day; you might come to understand the place and the people are, on the whole, perfectly pleasant and largely the same as people from anywhere else.

    The fact you seem bitter even about the continued existence of the House of Lords (an institution I think both in theory and in practice has a lot of merit - as demonstrated by how they have tried to inject a sense of reality and practicality into the commons Brexit plans) despite it having literally no effect on you is quite something to witness.

    On the point of a potential second Scottish referendum on independence after Brexit, it would strike me that putting a barrier between themselve and England (with whom Scotland do 65% of their trade) would be a destructive and slightly illogical and response to the barriers established between Scotland and the Eu (with whom they do only 15% of their trade - less than a quarter of that they do with England)

    Again, like Brexit, Scottish independence seems to me to be a situation where, economically, nobody wins, and I would prefer that neither happened.

    But, again like Brexit, it is all about your convictions. And if the Scots believe that true independence from the U.K. is more important than full and frictionless access to that market (I do see the similarities to Brexit) then I might disagree but I won’t be offended by it - I wouldn’t see it as a demonstration of Scottish arrogance or xenophobia vis a vis their relationship with England or anything of that nature


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