TV EPG Data

Johnboy1951 · 03-08-2018 02:58PM #1

I have been searching for something definitive around EPG data and copyright and other such 'restrictions' on use, but have failed miserably

I am referring to the actual data, and not the method of display of that data or any other element that might well be copyrighted by the likes of Sky or Eir or any other provider.

I read that for various reasons, such as the data being broadcast 'in the clear' or such, that the data is in the public domain and thus copyright free.

Yet I cannot find anything but unsupported opinion pieces, and even then most seem to be USA based .... such as this USA based item for which I can find no follow-up
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/07/is-your-cable-tv-on-screen-guide-copyright-protected/

Is there anything pertinent in the EU jurisdiction about this data?
Anyone got suggestions where to look or maybe a search term that should throw up some relevant reading?

Thanks for reading.

seamus · 03-08-2018 03:20PM

I expect the easiest way to determine the status is to look at analogues of it.

If we say that the EPG for Soarview is broadcast in-the-clear, then what else is broadcast in the clear, and what are the copyright restrictions on that?

FM radio is probably the best example. It's free to access, and copyright does not restrict an individual from playing a radio in a public place.

So in theory, taking EPG data and showing it in a public place is likely OK.

But what if you want to reformat that data, or consolidate it with other sources?

Again, consider radio. Imagine you took a feed from a radio station, but instead of the station's branding and advertisements, you overlaid it with your own? And then rebroadcast it?

That's a clear infringement of copyright.

So I imagine while there is very little to stop you from taking an EPG and manipulating it for your own private purposes, if the intention is to blend or reformat them to then distribute/transmit to 3rd parties, that's most likely copyright infringement.

Johnboy1951 · 03-08-2018 04:01PM

seamus wrote: »

I expect the easiest way to determine the status is to look at analogues of it.

If we say that the EPG for Soarview is broadcast in-the-clear, then what else is broadcast in the clear, and what are the copyright restrictions on that?

FM radio is probably the best example. It's free to access, and copyright does not restrict an individual from playing a radio in a public place.

So in theory, taking EPG data and showing it in a public place is likely OK.

But what if you want to reformat that data, or consolidate it with other sources?

Again, consider radio. Imagine you took a feed from a radio station, but instead of the station's branding and advertisements, you overlaid it with your own? And then rebroadcast it?

That's a clear infringement of copyright.

So I imagine while there is very little to stop you from taking an EPG and manipulating it for your own private purposes, if the intention is to blend or reformat them to then distribute/transmit to 3rd parties, that's most likely copyright infringement.

My question does not include the program itself ..... only the data which gives time and duration and so on about the program.
If a Radio station broadcasts its Now & Next programme information, that data is freely available and can be stripped of branding.
Can it then be used as one sees fit ..... for personal or commercial use?
If not why? ..... is it copyrighted even though publicly broadcast in the clear?

Doing this would have nothing at all to do with branding, as far as I can determine. It would be using only the data itself.

Yes it would concern branding & copyright if you were to copy the method of providing the data to a user ..... but I specifically omitted that because such things would be expected to be covered by copyright.

Just the basic data ..... I cannot find anything specifically about the EPG data and copyright.

seamus · 03-08-2018 04:15PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Can it then be used as one sees fit ..... for personal or commercial use?
If not why? ..... is it copyrighted even though publicly broadcast in the clear?

Personal, sure. Commercial, no. For the same reason as you can't re-use the audio without permission.

Yes it would concern branding & copyright if you were to copy the method of providing the data to a user ..... but I specifically omitted that because such things would be expected to be covered by copyright.

It doesn't really matter. Imagine you recorded radio shows, cut them into individual audio files and then provided them for download as podcasts or whatever.

That's a breach of copyright. Just like if you took the EPG data, reformatted it and rebroadcast it.

I don't see any reason why the EPG data would be a special case. It's being broadcast freely, which means it's free to use privately. But that doesn't imply free commercial use.

Note this is pure opinion.

But there is European case law which also asserts that this data is copyrighted:
http://merlin.obs.coe.int/iris/2012/9/article16.en.html

Samuel T. Cogley · 03-08-2018 04:21PM

Isn't there a case dealing with published listings being copied and them not being subject to copyright due to them not meeting the de minimus standard? Probably conflating things...

Johnboy1951 · 03-08-2018 04:41PM

Thanks for that link. I had not seen it previously.

It does refer specifically to "text and images" rather than the data itself.
I would indeed expect such text and images to be copyright protected.

But that is not what I am trying to get to.
Strip out the text and images and leave only the data specifying what program follows and its start and end time ...... I am trying to determine the status of that data.

Let us take for instance a satellite, broadcasting hundreds of TV & radio channels.
There are a number of companies who gather together the data describing what will be broadcast on a selection of those channels, and create an Electronic Program Guide including that data.
An EPG thus created is copyrighted by its creator company.
The images and text used and the method of displaying would fall under that copyright, as I understand it.
Indeed if the basic data is preserved in a database which complies with some specific requirements, the database could also be under copyright.

But what of basic data that is not placed in such a database, but is made publicly available?

Yes I am aware this can be a difficult prospect to try to separate the various components but they are generated by different companies.
For instance Company A might provide the program basic data for the 10 channels it broadcasts. It would hold, one would expect, copyright on that basic data.
But if it makes that data freely available in the public domain, or one of its agents does so, what is the situation with its copyright then?

The situation seems very involved, and I cannot seem to get anything definitive.

Johnboy1951 · 03-08-2018 04:45PM

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Isn't there a case dealing with published listings being copied and them not being subject to copyright due to them not meeting the de minimus standard? Probably conflating things...

I honestly don't know

I have been concentrating on the data issued electronically, mostly via satellite broadcast.
I (possibly erroneously) assumed that print media would have different emphasis and 'rules' about its copyright.

Johnboy1951 · 03-08-2018 04:54PM

In case anyone is wondering ..... I have no intention of creating an EPG to be made available publicly, commercially or otherwise.

One aspect now occurs to me.

There are many software applications for Home Theatre use, which have their own EPG structure, initially without any data.
The user when s/he runs that application causes it to populate the EPG with the data this thread is about.
There are commercial devices using these software applications.
Some of the software is itself commercial I believe.

If there is a copyright problem with this use of such data, is it not incumbent on the copyright holder to prevent its use and assert their copyright?

In the absence of such challenges, what is the presumed position in law?

donspeekinglesh · 03-08-2018 06:28PM

When I had a Home Theatre PC I bought access to the EPG data from a licensed service (the name escapes me now), but they were providing more than just the data, they were also providing it in a format I could use.

I would have thought the database rights in the EU would provide protection to the EPG data, but protecting a collection of facts is more difficult in the US.

Johnboy1951 · 03-08-2018 06:58PM

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

When I had a Home Theatre PC I bought access to the EPG data from a licensed service (the name escapes me now), but they were providing more than just the data, they were also providing it in a format I could use.

I would have thought the database rights in the EU would provide protection to the EPG data, but protecting a collection of facts is more difficult in the US.

There are specific regulations covering the database if it is to be covered by copyright ..... sorry I don't have a reference to hand.

The question is, what about data that is not in a database, so is not covered by the database copyright? T

You paid for the presentation of the data in a format you could use apparently.
I suspect you did not pay for the basic data included in that EPG, but might have paid for it in a database.

The same data is broadcast 'in the clear' so is publicly available, as far as I can determine.

GM228 · 03-08-2018 07:11PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I read that for various reasons, such as the data being broadcast 'in the clear' or such, that the data is in the public domain and thus copyright free.

Any sound, vision and "data" sent as part of TV transmission is subject to Copyright of 50 years under the provisions of the Copyright and Related Rights Act, 2000 as amended.

Must look at it more closely in its amended form, but take for example:-

(2) Copyright subsists, in accordance with this Act, in—

(a) original literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works,

(b) sound recordings, films, broadcasts or cable programmes,

(c) the typographical arrangement of published editions, and

(d) original databases.

Subsists = at minimal levels - enough to defeat the De Minimus standard STC I wonder or will a court still consider it trivial?

Anyway the EPG could be considered a database, but cable programmes or broadcast seems to cover it:-

“cable programme” means any item included in a cable programme service;

“cable programme service” means a service, including MMDS and digital terrestrial retransmission, which consists wholly or mainly of sending sounds, images or data or any combination of sounds, images or data, or the representations thereof, by means of a telecommunications system

"broadcast" means a transmission by wireless means, including by terrestrial or satellite means, whether digital or analogue, for direct public reception or for presentation to members of the public of sounds, images or data or any combination of sounds, images or data, or the representations thereof, but does not include transmission by means of MMDS or digital terrestrial retransmission

EPG certainly comes under any item included and is formed of data.

Johnboy1951 · 03-08-2018 08:22PM

(b) sound recordings, films, broadcastsor cable programmes,

“cable programme” means any item included in a cable programme service;

Satellite is not cable, so this I reckon cannot apply.

Anyway the EPG could be considered a database, but cable programmes or broadcast seems to cover it:-

Not unless the data in question is held in an actual database and that is how it is distributed to the public I believe.
This is not the case, as I understand it.

"broadcast" means a transmission by wireless means, including by terrestrial or satellite means, whether digital or analogue, for direct public reception or for presentation to members of the public of sounds, images or data or any combination of sounds, images or data, or the representations thereof, but does not include transmission by means of MMDS or digital terrestrial retransmission

This might come close.
But, if data is transmitted does it automatically gather to itself some copyright?

Apparently the EPG data for Sky channels is broadcast on satellite using OpenTV .... at least it is called opentv-skyuk.
This apparently is broadcast separately to any programme images or sound, and is not encrypted.

So, presently I am leaning towards no copyright on that data.

I would still like to try to find some convincing arguments one way or the other.

GM228 · 03-08-2018 08:32PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Satellite is not cable, so this I reckon cannot apply.

Any transmissions by wire, beam or any other conducting device through which electronically generated programme-carrying signals are guided over a distance is included and is a "cable programme service" by definition. It isn't limited to a literal cable, that's just the term used and so carries a 50 year copyright.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

This might come close.
But, if data is transmitted does it automatically gather to itself some copyright?

Apparently the EPG data for Sky channels is broadcast on satellite using OpenTV .... at least it is called opentv-skyuk.
This apparently is broadcast separately to any programme images or sound, and is not encrypted.

So, presently I am leaning towards no copyright on that data.

I would still like to try to find some convincing arguments one way or the other.

Yes data gathers copyright, and you seem to concede that the EPG is broadcast because it is data sent via satellite, in which case I'll refer you back to the Act:-

"broadcast" means a transmission by wireless means, including by terrestrial or satellite means, whether digital or analogue , for direct public reception or for presentation to members of the public of sounds, images or data or any combination of sounds, images or data, or the representations thereof, but does not include transmission by means of MMDS or digital terrestrial retransmission

And so to this...

Duration of copyright in broadcasts.

27.—(1) The copyright in a broadcast shall expire 50 years after the broadcast is first lawfully transmitted.

EPG appears to have a 50 year copyright because sound, vision or data (or a mixture of such) is considered a broadcast and a broadcast is afforded copyright.

(2) Copyright subsists, in accordance with this Act, in—

<SNIP>

(b) sound recordings, films, broadcasts or cable programmes

In other words any part of a broadcast is subject to copyright including any data which is contained in the broadcast.

Johnboy1951 · 03-08-2018 08:59PM

GM228 wrote: »

In any case EPG is data and broadcast most definitely covers it.

As I posted above this, IMO, comes closest.

Yet I also wonder if this is the case why has the copyright (of opentv-skyuk) not been defended (that I know of) when it is being used in thousands of devices including commercial devices.

Sky are not known for their generosity in such things.

What is the legal position if breach of copyright is known and nothing is done about it? Does the legal position change?

GM228 · 04-08-2018 05:48PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What is the legal position if breach of copyright is known and nothing is done about it? Does the legal position change?

Good question, if the copyright infringement is known and (initially at least) ignored by the owner could any later action be negated by a sort of permission via silence, similar to how it has been argued that silence for example can amount to acceptance of a contract.

Something tells me Peregrinus could afford an adequate answer to that query.

Johnboy1951 · 04-08-2018 07:48PM

I came across this page, which I think lends some validity to my assertion that there are quite a number of software applications which use the data when generating their own EPG.
This one is high profile being a Google Code page (I note the date given on the page as 2009 - 2011) and is in use currently on a lot of devices.

https://code.google.com/archive/p/crossepg/

There are others of course but this one is very clear and high profile. The data sources it uses, or is capable of using, are listed (here is the beginning of the list)

Default providers:

Ausat OpenTV (Optusc1 on 156.0)
Sky Italia OpenTV (Hotbird on 13.0)
Sky Uk OpenTV (Astra2 on 28.2)
Sky Uk OpenTV (Astra2 on 28.4)

The above includes those pertinent to our location for satellite tv reception.

I honestly do not believe this would be available and in use if there was a copyright case to be answered.

That brings the following more into focus I believe.

GM228 wrote: »

Good question, if the copyright infringement is known and (initially at least) ignored by the owner could any later action be negated by a sort of permission via silence, similar to how it has been argued that silence for example can amount to acceptance of a contract.

Something tells me Peregrinus could afford an adequate answer to that query.

I would be very interested in knowing what his thoughts on it are.

GM228 · 04-08-2018 08:05PM

I think that EPG data is subject to copyright for reasons already outlined, but STC has probably nailed it when he the mentions the De Minimus principle. De Minimus does not strictly mean no copyright, rather it basically means that courts are not going to concern themselves with trivial copying.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 04-08-2018 08:10PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I came across this page, which I think lends some validity to my assertion that there are quite a number of software applications which use the data when generating their own EPG.
This one is high profile being a Google Code page (I note the date given on the page as 2009 - 2011) and is in use currently on a lot of devices.

https://code.google.com/archive/p/crossepg/

There are others of course but this one is very clear and high profile. The data sources it uses, or is capable of using, are listed (here is the beginning of the list)

The above includes those pertinent to our location for satellite tv reception.

I honestly do not believe this would be available and in use if there was a copyright case to be answered.

That brings the following more into focus I believe.

I would be very interested in knowing what his thoughts on it are.

A lot of devices using CrossEPG and it's equivalents were being used to steal Pay TV by the means of card sharing. Sky overcame this by means of changing the encryption used on their broadcasts.

Perhaps they may not care that the EPG data for their channels is still available as what use is it if one can't watch the channels. Going after the creator would probably be like whack-a-mole anyway as the code is open-source. They preferred to use a change of encryption as a means of controlling their intellectual property.

Johnboy1951 · 04-08-2018 08:18PM

Ella Howling Newspaper wrote: »

A lot of devices using CrossEPG and it's equivalents were being used to steal Pay TV by the means of card sharing. Sky overcame this by means of changing the encryption used on their broadcasts.

No, that was copyright infringement and not theft.
There is a huge difference legally.

Perhaps they may not care that the EPG data for their channels is still available as what use is it if one can't watch the channels. Going after the creator would probably be like whack-a-mole anyway as the code is open-source. They preferred to use a change of encryption as a means of controlling their intellectual property.

The change of encryption method protected the content broadcast on the channels and not the data which is the subject of this thread.

If they did not care about the data, and essentially abandoned it to public use, then I posit that this data is free of copyright.

GM228 · 04-08-2018 08:22PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

No, that was copyright infringement and not theft.
There is a huge difference legally.

In the UK people engaged in "card sharing" have been prosecuted for fraud and theft.

Johnboy1951 · 04-08-2018 08:55PM

GM228 wrote: »

In the UK people engaged in "card sharing" have been prosecuted for fraud and theft.

Theft of what?

icdg · 05-08-2018 12:50PM

I know it’s an old case, but the ECJ case of Commission v Radio Telefis Eireann (Case 241/91 P), aka the “Magill TV Guide” case, addresses the issue of copyright in TV programme listings.

At the time the case was taken the only publications licensed to publish advance TV listings in the U.K. and Ireland were the RTE Guide, the Radio Times, and the TV Times. (yes you had to buy all three if you want comprehensive all channel listings). Newspapers were licensed to publish daily listings only. Magill established a listings magazine that published TV listings in breach of copyright of RTE, the BBC, and ITP (at the time a consortium of the ITV companies that owned the TV Times). They were the subject of injunctions in the Irish and NI courts restraining publication of listings and took a complaint to the Commission.

The court held that the TV listings were protected by copyright but that RTE (and ITP) had acted in breach of EU competition law by restricting publication of TV listings to their own publications. (The case was in fact moot by the time judgement was handed down because the TV listings magazine market was deregulated).

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A61991CJ0241

Johnboy1951 · 05-08-2018 03:00PM

Yeah things have moved on considerably in the last 23 years.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 05-08-2018 07:25PM

Some systems seemed to be using XMLTV data from the Radio Times site although this is now discontinued. I found the following quote though:

The tv_grab_uk_rt grabber processes machine-readable data from the radiotimes.com site. All data is the copyright of the Radio Times, and its use is subject to the following terms of use:

"In accessing this XML feed, you agree that you will only access its contents for your own personal and non-commercial use and not for any commercial or other purposes, including advertising or selling any goods or services, including any third-party software applications available to the general public."

http://wiki.xmltv.org/index.php/Britain_and_Ireland

Johnboy1951 · 05-08-2018 09:15PM

Ella Howling Newspaper wrote: »

Some systems seemed to be using XMLTV data from the Radio Times site although this is now discontinued. I found the following quote though:

http://wiki.xmltv.org/index.php/Britain_and_Ireland

The data was passed to mediabroadcast who distributed for a time free to end users but stopped that practice early last year (I think).
They have it locked down, so is not freely available, unlike the opentv-skyuk data.

Carawaystick · 06-08-2018 12:32AM

GM228 wrote: »

Any transmissions by wire, beam or any other conducting device

The text you quoted seems to include every transmission by wireless means, which includes speaking and signing in non-darkness.

If I talk, in or near a public place, I have transmitted by wireless means, sounds, and I havent used mmds or digital terrestrial retransmission, unless I'm signing something someone has signed to me ( which would appear discrimination against people who use ISL)

GM228 · 06-08-2018 06:38PM

Carawaystick wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

Any transmissions by wire, beam or any other conducting device

The text you quoted seems to include every transmission by wireless means, which includes speaking and signing in non-darkness.

If I talk, in or near a public place, I have transmitted by wireless means, sounds, and I havent used mmds or digital terrestrial retransmission, unless I'm signing something someone has signed to me ( which would appear discrimination against people who use ISL)

You seem to have missed the rest of my quote:-

GM228 wrote: »

Any transmissions by wire, beam or any other conducting device through which electronically generated programme-carrying signals are guided over a distance is included and is a "cable programme service" by definition.

Johnboy1951 · 08-08-2018 10:47PM

GM228 wrote: »

In the UK people engaged in "card sharing" have been prosecuted for fraud and theft.

This is really very different to the data under discussion.

Card sharing is all about getting access to encrypted TV channel programmes.
The EPG detail data in question here is not encrypted or protected and is 'out there' for anyone to grab without hindrance.

I have not been able to find anything definitive to date, unfortunately, about the copyright issue.
I expect it would be a bit convoluted ...... if Sky 'broadcast' the epg data in the clear, for multiple channels, who would have (if it exists) copyright on that EPG data? Sky? The TV channel owner such as ITV, BBC etc?

In addition it must be in the channel owners interest to have their EPG data available to the largest audience possible, so it is unlikely they would wish to interfere with or prevent anyone using it.
Maybe that goes some way to explaining why I can find nothing directly related to this.

TV EPG Data

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