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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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    #2972
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,851 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Most riddiculous complaint from the NBRU they dislike how Walker called bus user's riders are they using the snowflake generation to favour their agenda. Rider is just the American term for a passenger or a user I'm not a big fan of Americanisms myself but come on the guy is American so it's natural that he uses American terms rather than Irish ones.

    They also doesn't like the term transit lines that's the term he used and familiar with. It would be like a transport workers union in the States getting offended if an Irish person or a Brit said bus routes and public transport user. Jesus wept.

    https://twitter.com/NBRU_DUBLIN/status/1024756108735533056?s=19

    Curious what their definition of “direct access to a bus” is.

    If they actually have one....


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    #2973
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,233 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    The first public meeting with the NTA is going on now, out in Charlestown SC, in Finglas.

    https://twitter.com/BusConnects/status/1025013660941537281

    Seems to be great interest.


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    #2974
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Any awkward question O'Leary is asked he quickly and conveniently curls up behind his keyboard. It's ironic I remember him on the radio about a year ago I think it was to do with Go-Ahead calling out one of the texters of being a keyboard warrior.

    Here's an example no reply from O'Leary

    https://twitter.com/UrbnWarfareDuck/status/1024791147510722560?s=19


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    #2975
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    There's rumours going around twitter than an FF TD has been going around saying that people in Jobstown will need to change twice to get into town, whereas they'll have a direct bus (The D2). Shocking stuff if it's true.


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    #2976
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    Seams like th NBRU in conjunction with people before profit are having there own public consultation meeting to spread more dis information


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    #2977
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    Seams like th NBRU in conjunction with people before profit are having there own public consultation meeting to spread more dis information

    I love the title "Defend Public Transport". So they plan to "defend" public transport from improvements.


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    #2978
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I love the title "Defend Public Transport". So they plan to "defend" public transport from improvements.

    That's the thing though, for a lot of normal people on the ground they may not be improvements so why shouldn't they object? The attitude at the top of this plan and of all that worship at the church of Jarret doesn't do anything to help either. People have genuine concerns and scoffing at every single one of them does nothing. Whether this plan is right or wrong, the clarity, marketing, and general attitude around rolling it out at all levels has been atrocious. Things like this can never be as simple a matter of "this is better, now accept it you imbeciles" as it's coming across, the real life doesn't work that way.


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    #2979
    john boye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭john boye


    Qrt wrote: »
    There's rumours going around twitter than an FF TD has been going around saying that people in Jobstown will need to change twice to get into town, whereas they'll have a direct bus (The D2). Shocking stuff if it's true.

    Would not surprise me one bit. I heard a driver on the 77A a couple of weeks ago telling another driver that people will have to get 3 buses in future if they want to get from Citywest to Ringsend. For all I know it could actually be true but it's extremely misleading. The Tallaght routes weren't moved to terminate at Ringsend because of any demand for it, it was because they had to be cleared off the quays and Ringsend Garage was a handy place just outside the city centre to turn them around. They all practically empty out at Central Bank and Townsend St and then take on another load heading to Ringsend. You'd need to be mad to consider doing the whole 77A route with its tours of Killinarden, The Square, Old Bawn, Seskin View, Bolbrook, Balrothery, Glenview and Tymon North on its never-ending odyssey to the city!

    And while I'm on it, that's another thing that makes me laugh about the NBRUs cribbing. Wanting to preserve "direct" routes like the 77A when they're about as far removed from direct as you could get.


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    #2980
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    john boye wrote: »
    Would not surprise me one bit. I heard a driver on the 77A a couple of weeks ago telling another driver that people will have to get 3 buses in future if they want to get from Citywest to Ringsend. For all I know it could actually be true but it's extremely misleading. The Tallaght routes weren't moved to terminate at Ringsend because of any demand for it, it was because they had to be cleared off the quays and Ringsend Garage was a handy place just outside the city centre to turn them around. They all practically empty out at Central Bank and Townsend St and then take on another load heading to Ringsend. You'd need to be mad to consider doing the whole 77A route with its tours of Killinarden, The Square, Old Bawn, Seskin View, Bolbrook, Balrothery, Glenview and Tymon North on its never-ending odyssey to the city!

    And while I'm on it, that's another thing that makes me laugh about the NBRUs cribbing. Wanting to preserve "direct" routes like the 77A when they're about as far removed from direct as you could get.

    Lived along the 77a for years. It's a grand bus once you live before The Square. After that it's out and out agony. But I'm fairly sure the three buses thing is incorrect two. If anything it's the 63 to town then a bus down to ringsend. Anyone in their right mind would use the Luas though, and with a possible Poolbeg expansion on the cards...


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    #2981
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Patww79 wrote: »
    That's the thing though, for a lot of normal people on the ground they may not be improvements so why shouldn't they object? The attitude at the top of this plan and of all that worship at the church of Jarret doesn't do anything to help either. People have genuine concerns and scoffing at every single one of them does nothing. Whether this plan is right or wrong, the clarity, marketing, and general attitude around rolling it out at all levels has been atrocious. Things like this can never be as simple a matter of "this is better, now accept it you imbeciles" as it's coming across, the real life doesn't work that way.

    Having to change buses is not a genuine concern if the changes are seemless and if the buses are more frequent and journey times are reduced then that is a big improvement surely. Wanting an improved service is not Jarrett worshipping. I have my concerns and suggestions but I've submitted them to the NTA.

    What's not clear about the map which was made I found it very simple and easy to understand. A lot of the misunderstandings are manufactured by opposition TD's/Councillors and the likes of O'Leary as the proposed plans don't fit in with their agenda.


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    #2982
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    Does anybody have a decade from which most of the routes originate from? I want to say the 1930s, but it could be later.


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    #2983
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Qrt wrote: »
    Does anybody have a decade from which most of the routes originate from? I want to say the 1930s, but it could be later.

    Mix of the replacement routes as the tram network was closed 1930s-1940s and some which are the actual tram routings from the 19th century.

    Add in decades of political interference (looping routings in to housing estates and so on) and you have a dysfunctional system not designed for the city it actually serves but a ghost of its past.


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    #2984
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Having to change buses is not a genuine concern if the changes are seemless and if the buses are more frequent and journey times are reduced then that is a big improvement surely. Wanting an improved service is not Jarrett worshipping. I have my concerns and suggestions but I've submitted them to the NTA.

    What's not clear about the map which was made I found it very simple and easy to understand. A lot of the misunderstandings are manufactured by opposition TD's/Councillors and the likes of O'Leary as the proposed plans don't fit in with their agenda.

    Look, that's your opinion and not gospel. That's the thing about all this, there's a completely blinkered view that anyone who isn't all in shouldn't have any say whatsoever.
    Most normal people:
    aren't highly interested in transport
    aren't interested in city planning
    don't read full reports cover to cover
    don't care about bus routes that don't effect them
    don't care what the bus system is like in [insert European city here]

    There are a number of people with concerns and don't want the change and, rightly or wrongly, "shut up stupid" isn't the way to go about convincing them. Anything like this needs a certain amount of PR attached and it is really badly lacking right across the board.


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    #2985
    Dardania
    Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Dardania


    Patww79 wrote: »
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Having to change buses is not a genuine concern if the changes are seemless and if the buses are more frequent and journey times are reduced then that is a big improvement surely. Wanting an improved service is not Jarrett worshipping. I have my concerns and suggestions but I've submitted them to the NTA.

    What's not clear about the map which was made I found it very simple and easy to understand. A lot of the misunderstandings are manufactured by opposition TD's/Councillors and the likes of O'Leary as the proposed plans don't fit in with their agenda.

    Look, that's your opinion and not gospel. That's the thing about all this, there's a completely blinkered view that anyone who isn't all in shouldn't have any say whatsoever.
    Most normal people:
    aren't highly interested in transport
    aren't interested in city planning
    don't read full reports cover to cover
    don't care about bus routes that don't effect them
    don't care what the bus system is like in [insert European city here]

    There are a number of people with concerns and don't want the change and, rightly or wrongly, "shut up stupid" isn't the way to go about convincing them. Anything like this needs a certain amount of PR attached and it is really badly lacking right across the board.
    While yes, people need to be brought along as stakeholders, to some degree they also need to be told what to do - the old Henry Ford abused alleged saying of if he asked people what they wanted improved about personal transport, they'd ask for a faster horse.
    If there was a nicer approach, what would it look like?


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    #2986
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Patww79 wrote: »
    That's the thing though, for a lot of normal people on the ground they may not be improvements so why shouldn't they object? The attitude at the top of this plan and of all that worship at the church of Jarret doesn't do anything to help either. People have genuine concerns and scoffing at every single one of them does nothing. Whether this plan is right or wrong, the clarity, marketing, and general attitude around rolling it out at all levels has been atrocious. Things like this can never be as simple a matter of "this is better, now accept it you imbeciles" as it's coming across, the real life doesn't work that way.

    Dublin Bus,and before it,CIE's Dublin City Services has been one of the most consulted upon Transport entities in the stratosphere.

    What makes Walkers report more relevant,is not alone it's up-to-date nature,but the very fact that there are Individuals,from the Boss down prepared to back it up and debate the thing.

    One would be waiting a long time,before anybody identifiable,from McKinsey & Co,Deloitte & Touche or any of the several other Consultants could be found prepared to stand over their many recommendations.

    The Busconnects proposals represent the first time in over 3 decades,that Bus Based solutions to Dublin City's rapidly worsening Public Transport problems are actually being promoted.

    This plan is about MORE Vehicles,MORE Drivers,and More Bus Based options,an understanding of which,is something the NTA have woefully failed to bring to the debate.

    Dermot & the NBRU,will at some point have to accept the reality,that for Dublin Bus,the Company & it's 3,500 Staff,being inside this tent peeing out,is a LOT safer than being outside the tent peeing in.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #2987
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Patww79 wrote: »
    There are a number of people with concerns and don't want the change and, rightly or wrongly, "shut up stupid" isn't the way to go about convincing them. Anything like this needs a certain amount of PR attached and it is really badly lacking right across the board.

    Conversely if people want their genuine concerns heard they should be willing to listen and understand what the plan actually proposes.

    We're all supposed to be adults here. If we want the country to work properly we all have a responsibility to think about what we want and engage in public consultations like the current one without making it an emotive issue or attacking the contractor hired to do it personally.

    Also: Why the NBRU the ones who should be representing people's objections? Their only remit is the pay and conditions of their members, they have no responsibility for the quality of the bus service and historically their actions have demonstrated this.

    You might as well be asking a consortium of car manufacturers and car park owners to represent your public transport concerns.


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    #2988
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    sharper wrote: »
    Conversely if people want their genuine concerns heard they should be willing to listen and understand what the plan actually proposes.

    We're all supposed to be adults here. If we want the country to work properly we all have a responsibility to think about what we want and engage in public consultations like the current one without making it an emotive issue or attacking the contractor hired to do it personally.

    Also: Why the NBRU the ones who should be representing people's objections? Their only remit is the pay and conditions of their members, they have no responsibility for the quality of the bus service and historically their actions have demonstrated this.

    You might as well be asking a consortium of car manufacturers and car park owners to represent your public transport concerns.

    That's what I said above, a lot of people don't care about the country working properly, they care about their own life and their own area. Whether that's right or wrong, if engagement is sought then it needs to go both directions and it's not at all.
    My main point is, leaving the plan aside altogether, the actual roll-out of this by whoever is running it is atrocious. People won't react well to being talked at rather than to, that's just human nature.


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    #2989
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Patww79 wrote: »
    My main point is, leaving the plan aside altogether, the actual roll-out of this by whoever is running it is atrocious.

    The rollout is not ideal but it's very far from atrocious. It's easy to point out flaws in what other people are doing but remember we're talking about a total redesign of the bus network here.

    In general I think they missed out on the difference between discussing ideal public transport in general and public transport as it impact's people lives. This was also seen in the way the CPO was announced in a general way in the media first when those that would have actually been impacted should have been contacted with the specifics first.

    All of this is aside from whether the plan is actually good or not. None of us are in a position to change the way the media is handled.


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    #2990
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    sharper wrote: »
    TIn general I think they missed out on the difference between discussing ideal public transport in general and public transport as it impact's people lives. This was also seen in the way the CPO was announced in a general way in the media first when those that would have actually been impacted should have been contacted with the specifics first.

    Better to get your message out first and then people knock it down a few days later than people to knock it down before you've even announced it.

    If they had asked people first and one person ran to the press then the press would only be talking about that and the project details itself would be buried among all of that. Least if you get it out first you get a day or two of full press coverage of your side of the story before it gets knocked down.


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    #2991
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    devnull wrote: »
    Better to get your message out first and then people knock it down a few days later than people to knock it down before you've even announced it.

    Sure that approach can make sense but what they actually put out was basically "We're doing some improvements to the bus network and some people will be impacted to some degree". For people in the "impacted to some degree" category it's obviously worrying and also allowed for a lot of nonsense about everyone's gardens or even houses being taken to take root.

    Even if people got letters the next day with the specifics it would have been better.

    Personally I'm far more interested in a better bus network than the government's media management. I can't imagine any daily Dublin Bus user having a different set of priorities. It's certainly not as if Dublin Bus were ever a model citizen of public engagement.


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    #2992
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    john boye wrote: »
    Would not surprise me one bit. I heard a driver on the 77A a couple of weeks ago telling another driver that people will have to get 3 buses in future if they want to get from Citywest to Ringsend. For all I know it could actually be true but it's extremely misleading. The Tallaght routes weren't moved to terminate at Ringsend because of any demand for it, it was because they had to be cleared off the quays and Ringsend Garage was a handy place just outside the city centre to turn them around. They all practically empty out at Central Bank and Townsend St and then take on another load heading to Ringsend. You'd need to be mad to consider doing the whole 77A route with its tours of Killinarden, The Square, Old Bawn, Seskin View, Bolbrook, Balrothery, Glenview and Tymon North on its never-ending odyssey to the city!
    .

    Depending on what part of the 77A you live, you may need three buses to complete the journey.
    Route 250 from Killinarden, Seskin View, Bolbrook or Tymon to connect with the D2 towards the city, then take the C spine to Ringsend.

    You’re not wrong about the extension of the 77A to Ringsend, but in the last few years the area around Grand Canal Dock has become one of the busiest parts of the city.

    The 77A was a cheap fix during Network Direct. Dublin Bus were losing money, passenger numbers were down and the 77A was a way to combine 3 routes into one.


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    #2993
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    One thing about the media particularly the thrashy rags is bad news sells more newspapers or in this day and age generates more clicks and likes than anything that is good. You wouldn't think but the world is it's best position it has ever been however if you listened too much to the media you would think that we were going through turmoil.


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    #2994
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    KD345 wrote: »
    Depending on what part of the 77A you live, you may need three buses to complete the journey.
    Route 250 from Killinarden, Seskin View, Bolbrook or Tymon to connect with the D2 towards the city, then take the C spine to Ringsend.

    You’re not wrong about the extension of the 77A to Ringsend, but in the last few years the area around Grand Canal Dock has become one of the busiest parts of the city.

    The 77A was a cheap fix during Network Direct. Dublin Bus were losing money, passenger numbers were down and the 77A was a way to combine 3 routes into one.

    What as the third one? I know the 77a, and the 50, but the last one has slipped from my mind.


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    #2995
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    NTA's head of public affairs now getting involved on twitter
    https://twitter.com/dermotog/status/1025109761015070720

    Seems to be relatively encouraging that the NTA are willing to take on the scaremongering head on and are not cowering into a corner despite the much discussed spat on twitter.


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    #2996
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    KD345 wrote: »
    Depending on what part of the 77A you live, you may need three buses to complete the journey.
    Route 250 from Killinarden, Seskin View, Bolbrook or Tymon to connect with the D2 towards the city, then take the C spine to Ringsend.

    You’re not wrong about the extension of the 77A to Ringsend, but in the last few years the area around Grand Canal Dock has become one of the busiest parts of the city.

    The 77A was a cheap fix during Network Direct. Dublin Bus were losing money, passenger numbers were down and the 77A was a way to combine 3 routes into one.

    Most of the journies you mention looks like they could be done by walking to the A2, D2 or the 16 and then changing onto the O circle before you hit the city centre in order to get to the Grand Canal Dock.


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    #2997
    john boye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭john boye


    Qrt wrote: »
    What as the third one? I know the 77a, and the 50, but the last one has slipped from my mind.

    I'd guess some part of the 65B


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    #2998
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    Qrt wrote: »
    What as the third one? I know the 77a, and the 50, but the last one has slipped from my mind.

    The 65B between Citywest, Killinarden and Tallaght Village.


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    #2999
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Most of the journies you mention looks like they could be done by walking to the A2, D2 or the 16 and then changing onto the O circle before you hit the city centre in order to get to the Grand Canal Dock.

    Yes, all current journeys are still possible through frequent connections. The 77A can be unreliable at times, so hopefully the more frequent spines and local services will help improve the service.


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    #3000
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    But a large part of the miss communication has been due to the media giving out misinformation otherwise know as fake news.

    It has been yes, but it's far from one sided. It's not ideal, but there are ways to deal with the general public and it hasn't been demonstrated from any angle yet, that's all I'm saying. It's not as full on down-taking as the smaller sample size here, as boards trends to be, but it's still on that half of the scale. Someone with some people and PR skills would work wonders for the whole thing.


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    #3001
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,667 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    So I've read back and squabbling on Twitter and elsewhere continues unabated I see.

    Pat is right.. the roll out has been a complete disaster. No-one outside those who designed it, or enthusiasts cares about the "bigger picture" or that this is "best practise" elsewhere. They care about how it will affect THEM.

    As the quote goes... "if you're explaining, you're losing!" and that certainly seems to be what Jarret-the-Wunderkind and the NTA are spending a lot of time doing here.

    Here's my conclusion... by the time the dust settles this plan will be either abandoned, or reworked so much that it'll be completely ineffective and/or actually make things worse!


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