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Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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  • Options
    #6992
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,310 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    A person travelling from Cherrywood to Grangegorman would only the Luas to Sandyford and the Metro to The Mater station which is a two minute walk from Grangegorman
    Indeed Metro will reduce the journey time from Ranelagh to Grangegorman by approximately 20 minutes. If you make this journey regularly, you should be shouting for metro. You can even complete the journey faster by taking a Dublni bike at the other end.
    5.4.3.2.1....But what about the disabled Joe???


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    #6993
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    marno21 wrote: »
    Another installment of Michael McDowell vs Metrolink today in the Sunday Business Post

    This really is just pathetic. It's turning into Donald Trump levels of inaccurate whinging now

    Still waiting for McDowell to tell us where all his beloved Luas lines will go.


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    #6994
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,191 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Another article in the media predicting doom and gloom.

    Passengers face 'chaos' of catching bus to next Luas stop

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/passengers-face-chaos-of-catching-bus-to-next-luas-stop-37148295.html

    I understand there will be disruption and they are reporting the facts but at least they should also be reporting on why it has to be closed and to what extent the improvements will be when the project is finished. Every article is tinted with negativity.


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    #6995
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    jvan wrote: »
    Another article in the media predicting doom and gloom.

    Passengers face 'chaos' of catching bus to next Luas stop

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/passengers-face-chaos-of-catching-bus-to-next-luas-stop-37148295.html

    I understand there will be disruption and they are reporting the facts but at least they should also be reporting on why it has to be closed and to what extent the improvements will be when the project is finished. Every article is tinted with negativity.

    They should also note that the Green Line will be beyond capacity in the next few years, with no easy option for upgrading other than a metro style one.


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    #6996
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    CatInABox wrote: »
    They should also note that the Green Line will be beyond capacity in the next few years, with no easy option for upgrading other than a metro style one.

    Where is the nta pr department in this matter? How many negative articles have we got at this stage with no come back from the nta explaining the reasons for the disruption and the positive benefits it will have for decades to come.
    I think in this department the nta have made a complete balls of things. I hope they’re better at delivering projects than they are in promoting them.


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    #6997
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Where is the nta pr department in this matter? How many negative articles have we got at this stage with no come back from the nta explaining the reasons for the disruption and the positive benefits it will have for decades to come.
    I think in this department the nta have made a complete balls of things. I hope they’re better at delivering projects than they are in promoting them.

    One of the highlights of the BusConnects plan is that Jarrett Walker has stepped into the breach and is taking no s**t online. Tweet after tweet calling out politicians and newspapers, along with articles and interviews defending the plans.

    You'd think that the NTA would look at that and see some that maybe that's the way to go. Instead we've got radio silence, while vested interests set the agenda.


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    #6998
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    CatInABox wrote: »
    You'd think that the NTA would look at that and see some that maybe that's the way to go. Instead we've got radio silence, while vested interests set the agenda.

    I agree.


    But unfortunately local newspapers and facebook groups is where most people will get their information on Bus Connects.

    Bus Connects has a facebook presence but there's very little activity and relatively few followers.


    Given the millions being spent, a fraction more on the public relations spend would go a long way.


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    #6999
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Bray Head wrote: »
    I agree.


    But unfortunately local newspapers and facebook groups is where most people will get their information on Bus Connects.

    Bus Connects has a facebook presence but there's very little activity and relatively few followers.


    Given the millions being spent, a fraction more on the public relations spend would go a long way.

    Maybe some sort of Strategic Communications Unit to provide guidance on this would be worthwhile ?


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    #7000
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    marno21 wrote: »
    Maybe some sort of Strategic Communications Unit to provide guidance on this would be worthwhile ?

    That gave me a chuckle.


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    #7001
    LongboardPro
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭LongboardPro


    So the disruptions that SBP aricle writer is complaining about would be equal, if not more more destructive if his plans went ahead for l
    Luas here, there and everywhere. That basically debunks his entire article but whatever, facts aren't important when you got an agenda to push.


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    #7002
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    LongboardPro wrote: »
    So the disruptions that SBP aricle writer is complaining about would be equal, if not more more destructive if his plans went ahead for l
    Luas here, there and everywhere. That basically debunks his entire article but whatever, facts aren't important when you got an agenda to push.

    His fantasy luas lines would cause far more disruption during construction and even after when running as we don’t have roads for them anyway than closing the green line for even a year and tunneling under the city could ever cause.
    He’s a charlatan who has decided something with no knowledge and spouts his alternative safe in the knowledge that it will never be tested. Then when there is the inevitable disruption he can claim he was right. It’s about the level of journalism these days, gone are the days of tenacious journalists going after a story and getting all the facts before writing a piece, now you can sit at your kitchen table bang out some drivel and have it published.


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    #7003
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,267 ✭✭✭markpb


    LongboardPro wrote: »
    So the disruptions that SBP aricle writer is complaining about would be equal, if not more more destructive if his plans went ahead for l
    Luas here, there and everywhere. That basically debunks his entire article but whatever, facts aren't important when you got an agenda to push.

    Just ignore him. He knows that a dozen new tram lines are not going to be built instead of the metro. He's just shouting at anyone who will listen because a) he's bored, b) he has an inflated sense of self-worth or c) he's trying to get back into the spotlight.


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    #7004
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    markpb wrote: »
    Just ignore him. He knows that a dozen new tram lines are not going to be built instead of the metro. He's just shouting at anyone who will listen because a) he's bored, b) he has an inflated sense of self-worth or c) he's trying to get back into the spotlight.

    Not easy to ignore him when he’s whipping up a hatred against an important PT project though.


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    #7005
    Neworder79
    Registered Users Posts: 608 ✭✭✭Neworder79


    He's entitled to his opinion but not exactly objective observer either with the line bounding his property.


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    #7006
    LongboardPro
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭LongboardPro


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Not easy to ignore him when he’s whipping up a hatred against an important PT project though.

    ^ This. His dribble shines a bad light on the project and may ultimately turn people against it.


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    #7007
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    LongboardPro wrote: »
    ^ This. His dribble shines a bad light on the project and may ultimately turn people against it.

    Sorry wrong thread


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    #7008
    LongboardPro
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭LongboardPro


    salmocab wrote: »
    Sorry wrong thread

    Huh?


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    #7009
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    LongboardPro wrote: »
    Huh?

    I had posted something about bus connects by mistake


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    #7010
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    budhabob wrote: »
    This factual inaccurate! The initial design was for 24tph, however reduced to 20tph for peak i.e. the tunnel would be designed for it, but not necessarily start at that.

    At no point did Irish Rail ever suggest that they were going to run 24 trains per hour in each direction through their proposed tunnel.

    The proposed tunnel would probably have had such a theoretical capacity. It was broadly similar to the kind of tunnel used for S-Bahn trains in Frankfurt (24 tph throughput) and Munich (30 tph throughput), and other cities.

    The tunnel itself would, it appears from the specification, have been able to handle such throughputs, with the right signalling. But at no point did Irish Rail - in fairness to them - suggest that such throughputs were part of their plan.
    budhabob wrote: »
    So capacity of the DU would be far in excess of MN (20 x 8 car DART).

    Of course it would be. Munich's cross-city rail tunnel (30 tph) currently carries around 750,000 passengers per day. Light years ahead of the proposed metro in Dublin in terms of capacity, Even at a mere 20 tph it would put the metro into the ha'penny place.


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    #7011
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    A person travelling from Cherrywood to Grangegorman would only the Luas to Sandyford and the Metro to The Mater station which is a two minute walk from Grangegorman

    So they'd use the rump LUAS, in other words the fag-end bit south of Sandyford, to get to Sandyford, then change to the metro to the Mater. Which is, you say, just a two-minute walk to Grangegorman.

    Would you care to back up that it's just a two-minute walk between the Mater and Grangegorman?


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    #7012
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    I think McDowell is broadly right in his article, though he is obviously talking total blx with the stuff about the 90 metre trams.

    But, with regard to the secrecy, he's pretty much right.

    Does anybody recall a newspaper advertisement, for example, from the NTA, or even the TII, the overall body, looking for views from the public about this project?


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    #7013
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    McDowell's words are actually just populist nonsense of a particularly low quality. There is no "secrecy" about this project. The public do not deserve a referendum on every single infrastructure project that might exist, the country would grind to a halt if that were so.

    We elect TDs, we elect a government, the government make plans for the expenditure of public money. It is worth noting that political opposition to Metrolink would have been largely muted because most parties are in support of more public transport in Dublin. Hell, FF even proposed much of the same project at various points themselves!

    Once a decision is made to build something, the engineers and planners then go away and have to create a plan that fits into the bounds proposed by the government. If you think the public should be informed at every step of this process, again, you'd never get anything done (or you would but much much slower and more expensively).

    Then when the project has a plan that is essentially complete, it is presented for public consultation. The aim of the consultation isn't to say "do you want this project to go ahead or not", it is to gather a representative amount of feedback that will cause adjustments to parts of the plan. In some cases, such as the Na Fianna stuff, the planners will already have built an alternative option into the project that they can use when they are determining the final route that is then submitted for Railway Order (or whatever equivalent for other types of infrastructure).

    This is how it works for practically every infrastructure project in this country, and in countless other countries.

    As for whether the NTA sought views from the public? Of course they did. Running a newspaper advertisment would have been overkill when every single news story about the announcement of the project mentioned that there would be a public consultation. Indeed, they probably ran adverts to announce details of upcoming public information meetings, which they organised a few of during the consultation process.

    It's really frustrating to see people and organisations say "we weren't consulted" when a project is announced and opened up for public consultation. It's happening with BusConnects too. You (the royal you) are being consulted now, and there was no obligation nor any need to consult you before that.


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    #7014
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    MJohnston wrote: »
    As for whether the NTA sought views from the public? Of course they did. Running a newspaper advertisment would have been overkill when every single news story about the announcement of the project mentioned that there would be a public consultation. Indeed, they probably ran adverts to announce details of upcoming public information meetings, which they organised a few of during the consultation process.

    It's really frustrating to see people and organisations say "we weren't consulted" when a project is announced and opened up for public consultation. It's happening with BusConnects too. You (the royal you) are being consulted now, and there was no obligation nor any need to consult you before that.

    So, they're planning to build a 3-4 billion project. Did they solicit views from the public? You say 'pf course t'.

    Show us where they did.

    I don't recall it.


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    #7015
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    So, they're planning to build a 3-4 billion project. Did they solicit views from the public? You say 'pf course t'.

    Show us where they did.

    I don't recall it.
    What are you talking about? The NTA should have requested permission from the public to proceed with Metro? The Fingal/North Dublin Transport Study recommended the Metro option, and it was included in the 2016-2035 GDA Transport Strategy. The NTA are trained at this stuff, the public are not.


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    #7016
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    So, they're planning to build a 3-4 billion project. Did they solicit views from the public? You say 'pf course t'.

    Show us where they did.

    I don't recall it.

    Here it is..

    Public Consultation on the North Dublin Transport Study
    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/consultations/public-consultation-on-the-north-dublin-transport-study/

    Public Consultation on Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2016—2035
    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Consultation_Submissions_Report_1.pdf


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    #7017
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    So, they're planning to build a 3-4 billion project. Did they solicit views from the public? You say 'pf course t'.

    Show us where they did.

    I don't recall it.


    Here's where they solicited views from the public:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_general_election,_2016


    Fine Gael's 2016 manifesto (page 125):
    We will invest €3.6bn across the lifetime of the next Capital Plan to enable a number of major public transport projects to proceed, and to fund additional capacity to meet existing and future commuter needs. These will include the new Metro North and the completion of LUAS Cross City.


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    #7018
    sea12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,244 ✭✭✭sea12


    MJohnston wrote: »
    McDowell's words are actually just populist nonsense of a particularly low quality. There is no "secrecy" about this project. The public do not deserve a referendum on every single infrastructure project that might exist, the country would grind to a halt if that were so.

    We elect TDs, we elect a government, the government make plans for the expenditure of public money. It is worth noting that political opposition to Metrolink would have been largely muted because most parties are in support of more public transport in Dublin. Hell, FF even proposed much of the same project at various points themselves!

    Once a decision is made to build something, the engineers and planners then go away and have to create a plan that fits into the bounds proposed by the government. If you think the public should be informed at every step of this process, again, you'd never get anything done (or you would but much much slower and more expensively).

    Then when the project has a plan that is essentially complete, it is presented for public consultation. The aim of the consultation isn't to say "do you want this project to go ahead or not", it is to gather a representative amount of feedback that will cause adjustments to parts of the plan. In some cases, such as the Na Fianna stuff, the planners will already have built an alternative option into the project that they can use when they are determining the final route that is then submitted for Railway Order (or whatever equivalent for other types of infrastructure).

    This is how it works for practically every infrastructure project in this country, and in countless other countries.

    As for whether the NTA sought views from the public? Of course they did. Running a newspaper advertisment would have been overkill when every single news story about the announcement of the project mentioned that there would be a public consultation. Indeed, they probably ran adverts to announce details of upcoming public information meetings, which they organised a few of during the consultation process.

    It's really frustrating to see people and organisations say "we weren't consulted" when a project is announced and opened up for public consultation. It's happening with BusConnects too. You (the royal you) are being consulted now, and there was no obligation nor any need to consult you before that.

    Very good post.good common sense which seems to be lacking in allot of understanding on public infrastructure projects.
    The theme of your post should be used by a few journalists in a few articles.


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    #7019
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Everyone is better off with a Metro line to Sandyford, including Cherrywood commuters.

    The luas is crap as a long distance mode.


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    #7020
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,310 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Everyone is better off with a Metro line to Sandyford, including Cherrywood commuters.

    The luas is crap as a long distance mode.

    It's currently impossible to get on. Metro at 90 second frequency will fix that. It's simple but some people don't get it.


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    #7021
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    cgcsb wrote: »
    It's currently impossible to get on. Metro at 90 second frequency will fix that. It's simple but some people don't get it.

    I'd imagine that everybody gets that the Green Line is busy at peak times.

    But the density of suburbs in the south-west (or, if you wish, south-central) is broadly similar to that of suburbs in the south-east, in the areas along the LUAS Green line.

    I would expect that if a metro line (or, I would hope, lines) were to be built on a gradual basis towards Rathmines (and beyond, to somewhere like Firhouse) and to Harold's Cross (and beyond, to somewhere like Walkinstown Cross), would probably experience something like the same issues that the LUAS Green line is now going through. They'd be busy at peak times, though to a lesser extent because the metro lines would be competing with one another and with the Green line.

    It basically boils down to the extent that the Irish Government wants to use this metro project to eventually provide rapid public transport to areas which don't enjoy this at the moment. It was mentioned above that it can take 90 (ninety) minutes to get from Knocklyon to the city centre.

    Reducing that kind of shocking commuting time from a suburb of Dublin would seem, to me, more important than making things a bit more comfy for people who already have a pretty short ride into town.


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