Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

johnnyskeleton · 24-07-2018 2:12pm #1

Mod note:

New Thread for discussion of Donald Trump. Towards the end of the last one things were getting a bit personal, so let's try to avoid that this time around.

Same rules apply re: link dumps, one liners etc. Other than that I hope you all enjoy a robust and illuminating debate.

Mod Warning as posted on August 2

OK folks, in recent weeks this thread has frequently gotten out of hand. Despite numerous warnings, cards, and bans, we've still got far too many people just ignoring the forum charter.

So this is a final warning. If you can't keep to the rules, don't post here, because we're rapidly nearing the point where we're going to have to start banning people, either from this thread or from the forum as a whole.

If you haven't read the charter, please do so now. And, it should go without saying, but in relation to this thread, let us stress the following:

1. If you think this warning applies to one side of the debate, think again. We've had to intervene with posters from both sides on a regular basis.

2. Just because someone else is acting the maggot, doesn't give you licence to do the same. Report their posts, ignore them and move on. Responding in kind just amplifies the problem and turns the thread into an even bigger mess.

3. If you want to talk about the "deep state" or any kind of conspiracy theory, don't do so here. This is a place for fact-based discussion.

Penn · 24-07-2018 4:54pm

https://apnews.com/9f26e4a32322470fa290d4607cc1089b?utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=AP&__twitter_impression=true

Trump Administration likely to announce plans to provide billions of dollars in financial aid to farmers suffering as a result of Trump's trade war.

The art of the deal, indeed...

jooksavage · 24-07-2018 5:04pm

Penn wrote: »

https://apnews.com/9f26e4a32322470fa290d4607cc1089b?utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=AP&__twitter_impression=true

Trump Administration likely to announce plans to provide billions of dollars in financial aid to farmers suffering as a result of Trump's trade war.

The art of the deal, indeed...

As a farmer myself, I can't see this cutting it with US farmers. It might put food on the table for the time-being but every farmer would opt for a fair price for their produce over this "hardship money". Also, if it's anything like the compensation schemes over here, there's going to be a heap of bureaucracy involved. Again, not something that generally endears already-stretched farmers.

mcmoustache · 24-07-2018 5:37pm

The latest tweet from the man himself is rather interesting.

I’m very concerned that Russia will be fighting very hard to have an impact on the upcoming Election. Based on the fact that no President has been tougher on Russia than me, they will be pushing very hard for the Democrats. They definitely don’t want Trump!

As with most of what Trump says, it's somewhat devoid of reality and contradicts things that he has said previously.

It'll be interesting to see how many people start repeating the claim.

everlast75 · 24-07-2018 6:14pm

That tweet is probably the most embarassing tweet he has ever sent.

And that is saying something.

Apparently he has forgotten to put the "wink wink" at the end

jobbridge4life · 24-07-2018 7:21pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't think HC can win though, that's the thing.

Look who followed Reagan. GHW Bush. A down to earth back to basics southern man and southern wife. Perfect "old school" american.

There needs (for the blue side's sake) to be a similar down to earth candidate. Bush Senior, not Carter/Clinton is the way to go here.

I mean it is this basic ignorance of headline facts, not to the mention nuances, of American politics that makes me question everything you post.

This is not the first time you have been spectacularly wrong on the simplest of matters.

The Democrats need a down to earth southern gentleman. The Republicans however can nominate an accused rapist, serial sexual assailant, bankrupt, protectionist, liar by nature, who insults them, the country and everything in general and win? Really?

StringerBell · 24-07-2018 8:19pm

I replied to him too, he actually brought a reply out of me this time. The man is unreal, whats that the 4th or 5th flip flop on Russia in a week?

He really does think his supporters are absolute idiots of the lowest order who will just swallow any line of bull**** he feeds them. Is he right? Well, I guess there is evidence to suggest he is.

But great, nice to see him on back on the Russia interferes with elections train today, or at that moment anyway. What is the commander in chief doing to protect the integrity of the elections now that he is sure they will be working hard to effect change.

mcmoustache · 24-07-2018 8:33pm

StringerBell wrote: »

He really does think his supporters are absolute idiots of the lowest order who will just swallow any line of bull**** he feeds them. Is he right? Well, I guess there is evidence to suggest he is.

What's even more fascinating is his supporters' defense of the positions that he takes and then contradicts hours or days later. I think it was you that mentioned this over the weekend although others may have too.

This pattern repeats itself so many times:

Trump takes a position - his supporters defend it.
Trump takes the opposite position - his supporters defend this position too.
Repeat. Repeat.

I mean, think about it for a second. How does it even make sense? All it does is rip their credibility to shreds. When it's pointed out to them, you get some serious mental gymnastics and literal nonsense,

And then they wonder why they're getting a hard time in a fact-based forum.

StringerBell · 24-07-2018 8:56pm

Yes I am fascinated by how much they can take, how many times he can make an absolute fool out of them and they continue to do the same things. There is definitely a PhD in it for someone looking to add to the body of work in the field of either personality cults/political science/cognitive dissonance.

dr.fuzzenstein · 24-07-2018 9:45pm

StringerBell wrote: »

Yes I am fascinated by how much they can take, how many times he can make an absolute fool out of them and they continue to do the same things. There is definitely a PhD in it for someone looking to add to the body of work in the field of either personality cults/political science/cognitive dissonance.

I think it's merely a Pavlovian reflex at this stage.
Trump could just stand up there and ring a bell and the crowd would go nuts for him.
Throw a few doggy treats and they'll walk into the fires of hell for him.
I don't think any higher brain functions are involved.

everlast75 · 24-07-2018 9:55pm

Trump has finally gone full George Orwell. He is trying his last trick. "Don't believe your eyes. Believe me instead"

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1021851618466308097?s=19

Inquitus · 24-07-2018 10:14pm

everlast75 wrote: »

Trump has finally gone full George Orwell. He is trying his last trick. "Don't believe your eyes. Believe me instead"

I don't think Barnier is going to take much **** off of Trump when he meets him shortly, the EU has a bigger economy and we can go toe to toe with the US if we have to, as Phil Hogan said today, we should face him down on this trade spat and not give an inch.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/eu-should-bully-trump-back-on-trade-policies-says-hogan-1.3573733

everlast75 · 24-07-2018 10:41pm

Inquitus wrote: »

I don't think Barnier is going to take much **** off of Trump when he meets him shortly, the EU has a bigger economy and we can go toe to toe with the US if we have to, as Phil Hogan said today, we should face him down on this trade spat and not give an inch.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/eu-should-bully-trump-back-on-trade-policies-says-hogan-1.3573733

If Trump gets me to agree with Phil ****ing Hogan, that'll be actually the worst thing he has ever done

The Backwards Man · 24-07-2018 11:36pm

We're going to run out of Roman numerals before this is all over.

BonnieSituation · 24-07-2018 11:37pm

The Backwards Man wrote: »

We're going to run out of Roman numerals before this is all over.

We can just move to letters then... :P

Itssoeasy · 24-07-2018 11:38pm

everlast75 wrote: »

If Trump gets me to agree with Phil ****ing Hogan, that'll be actually the worst thing he has ever done

Not a fan of big phil then ?

Itssoeasy · 24-07-2018 11:39pm

I tried to just let his rubbish pass me, but the carry on in Helsinki just dragged me back in full time. I just can't believe the office of the president of the United States has been reduced to this.

The Backwards Man · 24-07-2018 11:42pm

Are there any American industries that aren't negatively affected by tariffs?

mcmoustache · 24-07-2018 11:44pm

everlast75 wrote: »

If Trump gets me to agree with Phil ****ing Hogan, that'll be actually the worst thing he has ever done

Whatever issues I have about our politicians here, at least they live in the same reality as the rest of us. They might have self serving solutions to problems but they don't tell us that our problems don't exist or call them fake news. Sure, they spin and they also lie from time to time but when they're presented with evidence of their lies, they backtrack or pretend they meant something else but they don't tell us that black is white. They at least know that they've been caught out.

This is what's mad about Trump and his supporters. The lies are so obvious and his supporters still repeat them. On his inauguration, he was calling it great weather when we could see rain and ponchos. That's pretty close to pissing on your leg and telling you it's raining. I even remember people repeating the lie about his crowd size. The posts are still there, ffs.

There's simply no comparison between Trump and regular politicians in a democratic society. There's also nothing like the same fanaticism, sycophancy and aversion to reality among supporters of political parties here.

alchemist33 · 24-07-2018 11:50pm

Penn wrote: »

https://apnews.com/9f26e4a32322470fa290d4607cc1089b?utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=AP&__twitter_impression=true

Trump Administration likely to announce plans to provide billions of dollars in financial aid to farmers suffering as a result of Trump's trade war.

The art of the deal, indeed...

This sounds suspiciously like socialism. I wonder if any of his vocal supporters will notice

mcmoustache · 24-07-2018 11:51pm

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Are there any American industries that aren't negatively affected by tariffs?

Ivanka's clothing line. It looks like that operation is winding up though.

It's hard to think of anything that's natively sourced along the supply line and even harder to think of natively sourced raw materials that aren't indirectly affected by tariffs. Wood carved from fallen branches and sold on etsy should be ok.

FatherTed · 25-07-2018 12:05am

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I think it's merely a Pavlovian reflex at this stage.
Trump could just stand up there and ring a bell and the crowd would go nuts for him.
Throw a few doggy treats and they'll walk into the fires of hell for him.
I don't think any higher brain functions are involved.

Well he something along the lines of "I could go up 5th avenue and shoot someone and I'd get more popular" before the election. He's right. His base is doubling down so he can do no wrong in their eyes. Plus according to some polls his popularity is increasing among GOP(and perhaps independents) as well.

blackwave · 25-07-2018 12:15am

mcmoustache wrote: »

The latest tweet from the man himself is rather interesting.

As with most of what Trump says, it's somewhat devoid of reality and contradicts things that he has said previously.

It'll be interesting to see how many people start repeating the claim.

Interesting how it went down on The Donald, as you would expect no mention about President Trumps Russian links, etc. Instead, the narrative was bringing mandatory voter ID. Not sure how much this really is over there but according to this https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth it's over exaggerated. However, posters here that are more up to date with this might have better sources on how much of an issue it really is.

mcmoustache · 25-07-2018 12:26am

blackwave wrote: »

Interesting how it went down on The Donald, as you would expect no mention about President Trumps Russian links, etc. Instead, the narrative was bringing mandatory voter ID. Not sure how much this really is over there but according to this https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth it's over exaggerated. However, posters here that are more up to date with this might have better sources on how much of an issue it really is.

I saw that too in the_Donald. I have no problem in principle with voter id laws. In fact, it makes complete sense to me that someone should verify who they are before voting anonymously. The problem is that in the US, this gets abused to an insane degree. For example, if you choose to allow handgun licences and not student id, you can see how that could alter the demographic of the voters. Imagine if you had to have a Fine Fáil ID to vote - that's basically what they do with voter id laws.

EDIT:

I'd like to add that people should check out the_donald regularly. Not to swallow any of the nonsense but just to see the talking points before they're regurgitated here.

jooksavage · 25-07-2018 6:38am

Looks like the Trump-Cohen relationship is well and truly dead now that Cohens lawyer is releasing tapes to CNN to highlight Trumps criminality and his clients innocence. Was a bit disappointed by the content of the tape actually. I mean, it would end any normal presidency, without a doubt, but I was expecting some toxic misogyny... as if that would finally turn the tables and convince his supporters he's a POS.

everlast75 · 25-07-2018 6:55am

jooksavage wrote: »

Looks like the Trump-Cohen relationship is well and truly dead now that Cohens lawyer is releasing tapes to CNN to highlight Trumps criminality and his clients innocence. Was a bit disappointed by the content of the tape actually. I mean, it would end any normal presidency, without a doubt, but I was expecting some toxic misogyny... as if that would finally turn the tables and convince his supporters he's a POS.

They are only 12 of the tapes. There are more. And that's just from Cohen.

Wait until the NBC tapes go public

Captain Obvious · 25-07-2018 7:41am

The problem with voter ID laws in the US is they are marred by the same issues as voter registration and constituency borders. Partisan bodies chosen to implement them. Gerrymandering and voter purges are still happening.

ELM327 · 25-07-2018 7:56am

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I mean it is this basic ignorance of headline facts, not to the mention nuances, of American politics that makes me question everything you post.

This is not the first time you have been spectacularly wrong on the simplest of matters.

The Democrats need a down to earth southern gentleman. The Republicans however can nominate an accused rapist, serial sexual assailant, bankrupt, protectionist, liar by nature, who insults them, the country and everything in general and win? Really?

The point I was making is clear and still stands.
The whole point, which seems to have been missed by everyone in your titillating race to get the next barb in, is that you won't out Trump Trump, and you need to go the opposite to win. Sensationalism and celebrity (eg Oprah) won't win.

The point regarding Bush senior was perfectly apt as he moved and lived most of his adult life after university in Texas. Same with Barbara.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother, absolutely no point posting when I'm met with an nice equilibrium of loosely concealed aggression, thinly veiled social justice warriorism , and simple "I'm better than you because I'm on the left"....which has now morphed into "I'm better than you because you are a Trump supporter".

everlast75 · 25-07-2018 7:59am

ELM327 wrote: »

The point I was making is clear and still stands.
The whole point, which seems to have been missed by everyone in your titillating race to get the next barb in, is that you won't out Trump Trump, and you need to go the opposite to win. Sensationalism and celebrity (eg Oprah) won't win.

The point regarding Bush senior was perfectly apt as he moved and lived most of his adult life after university in Texas. Same with Barbara.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother, absolutely no point posting when I'm met with an nice equilibrium of loosely concealed aggression, thinly veiled social justice warriorism , and simple "I'm better than you because I'm on the left"....which has now morphed into "I'm better than you because you are a Trump supporter".

On the contrary. I think you've been treated quite well considering your views on racism.

ELM327 · 25-07-2018 8:02am

everlast75 wrote: »

On the contrary. I think you've been treated quite well considering your views on racism.

If you consider the treatment handed out here, the complete bile and vitriol spouted in my direction, the oleaginous undercurrent replied to pretty much any comment I make - regardless of what I say or how down the middle it is - then if you extend that same level of welcome to migrants I'd be happy with that.

Captain Obvious · 25-07-2018 8:09am

ELM327 wrote: »

If you consider the treatment handed out here, the complete bile and vitriol spouted in my direction, the oleaginous undercurrent replied to pretty much any comment I make - regardless of what I say or how down the middle it is - then if you extend that same level of welcome to migrants I'd be happy with that.

What do you consider yourself "down the middle" on that has been given bad treatment?

spacecoyote · 25-07-2018 8:09am

ELM327 wrote: »

If you consider the treatment handed out here, the complete bile and vitriol spouted in my direction, the oleaginous undercurrent replied to pretty much any comment I make - regardless of what I say or how down the middle it is - then if you extend that same level of welcome to migrants I'd be happy with that.

I think you have up the moral high ground when you stated that you would respect Trump more if he was caught on tape making a racial tirade

irishash · 25-07-2018 8:14am

ELM327 wrote: »

If you consider the treatment handed out here, the complete bile and vitriol spouted in my direction, the oleaginous undercurrent replied to pretty much any comment I make - regardless of what I say or how down the middle it is - then if you extend that same level of welcome to migrants I'd be happy with that.

Regardless of your (supposed) views on LGBTQ rights and abortion, and whatever popular social topic is trending, that last comment shows why you get some of the replies you do.

If you want to debate then fine, but dont complain when you receive mockery for a stupid post like the one about Bush. I have made mistakes here, been corrected publically and I have thanked people for it. I dont pretend to know everything and am happy for this forum to educate me. I am not here to sermonise unlike some.

BoJack Horseman · 25-07-2018 8:20am

Who doesn't want free trade?

I imagine people will be happy to see the end of the EU's high import tarriffs?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1021909900941815809

ELM327 · 25-07-2018 8:22am

irishash wrote: »

Regardless of your (supposed) views on LGBTQ rights and abortion, and whatever popular social topic is trending, that last comment shows why you get some of the replies you do.

Yet another example of this condescension

irishash wrote: »

If you want to debate then fine, but dont complain when you receive mockery for a stupid post like the one about Bush. I have made mistakes here, been corrected publically and I have thanked people for it. I dont pretend to know everything and am happy for this forum to educate me. I am not here to sermomise unlike some.

The point about the bushes was correct.

The meaning was clear. Pointing to where they were born or educated is irrelevant. The bushes are Texans.

Even the superbowl commentary when the bushes did the coin toss referred several times to their Houston residence (even once erroneously as a Houston native).

But the point behind this is that you can apparently feel free to deride me, call me stupid, mock me, all without any sort of moderation.

UsedToWait · 25-07-2018 8:29am

ELM327 wrote: »

But the point behind this is that you can apparently feel free to deride me, call me stupid, mock me, all without any sort of moderation.

Poor me stuff.
I thought this thread was for debate of the issues, not debate of your issues.

Jelle1880 · 25-07-2018 8:34am

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Who doesn't want free trade?

I imagine people will be happy to see the end of the EU's high import tarriffs?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1021909900941815809

lmao.

He is the one who started this whole trade war, and now the EU should back down and stop tariffs ?
For a strong and stable genius he seems to have little knowledge of how economics work.

ELM327 · 25-07-2018 8:37am

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What do you consider yourself "down the middle" on that has been given bad treatment?

All the comments regarding the future democrat nominees for one.
Any time I make a comment I get 10 comments back, ranging from disagreement (which of course is perfectly fine), but then the insults, ranging from mild to egregious, take over

ELM327 · 25-07-2018 8:38am

UsedToWait wrote: »

Poor me stuff.
I thought this thread was for debate of the issues, not debate of your issues.

People make it a debate about me when they insult me, deride me, and I report the post but no action is taken by the moderators who seem very ok with personal insults once the recipient is a trump supporter

irishash · 25-07-2018 8:38am

ELM327 wrote: »

Yet another example of this condescension

The point about the bushes was correct.

But the point behind this is that you can apparently feel free to deride me, call me stupid, mock me, all without any sort of moderation.

Not condescension, just doubt. Never have I met or spoken with a gay, abortion and ANTI-immigration rights activist.

The point you made about Bush was not correct. I moved from Galway to Dublin 20 years ago. That does not make me a dub in any way shape or form, nor has it amended my ideals or philosophy.

I have never called you stupid or derided you, but I will always call you out on the stupid and false things you say.

ELM327 · 25-07-2018 8:45am

irishash wrote: »

Not condescension, just doubt. Never have I met or spoken with a gay, abortion and ANTI-immigration rights activist..

Mod: Elm327, do not quote other forums please.

Penn · 25-07-2018 9:00am

The Trump Administration has edited out a part of the Helsinki press conference with Trump and Putin to remove a reporter asking Putin if he wanted Trump to win the election

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/trump-white-house-edits-putin-support-for-trump-out-of-transcript-1284716611545?playlist=associated

looksee · 25-07-2018 9:01am

ELM327 wrote: »

So when I post, people reply, I address the replies directed at me and now it's about me? :rolleyes:

It does become obvious where the empathy for Trump comes from!

irishash · 25-07-2018 9:07am

Penn wrote: »

The Trump Administration has edited out a part of the Helsinki press conference with Trump and Putin to remove a reporter asking Putin if he wanted Trump to win the election

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/trump-white-house-edits-putin-support-for-trump-out-of-transcript-1284716611545?playlist=associated

Wow - state censorship is alive and well in the United State of Trump. But how did they think they would get away with this? Did they believe that MSNBC, CNN, AP, Reuters, et all would not notice? It is the key part of the conference they keep going back to.

everlast75 · 25-07-2018 9:13am

irishash wrote: »

Wow - state censorship is alive and well in the United State of Trump. But how did they think they would get away with this? Did they believe that MSNBC, CNN, AP, Reuters, et all would not notice? It is the key part of the conference they keep going back to.

yeah - but you see. They are all "fake news" according to him and his cult followers.

The White House is also rowing back on the normal practice of disclosing content of calls made by Trump.

Coupled with the fact that Helsinki is over a week ago and we STILL don't know what was agreed...

Captain Obvious · 25-07-2018 9:15am

UsedToWait wrote: »

Poor me stuff.
I thought this thread was for debate of the issues, not debate of your issues.

The poor me stuff is a tactic the alt right are pushing pretty hard since SHS was thrown out of that restaurant. Lamenting the loss of civility and decorum on the left. Feigning offence at the slightest perceived insult. The poster you are responding to came into an immigration thread in AH and accused myself and others of stalking him to harass him. You can see it in the White House ow with Trump complaining that he is going to suffer from Russian interference. There's always been an element of it but it has been amplified a lot recently. I think it is because Trump's behaviour and comments has backed them into so many corners they are having trouble arguing points.

irishash · 25-07-2018 9:17am

ELM327 wrote: »

20 years versus 60+ though.
But again you are missing the point. Which was regarding the type of candidate the dems should field for 2020.

The democrats should put forward a social and fiscal conservative republican?

Ok, ok.....I had to get that one in.

I am guessing your point was that the democrats need a down to earth, homespun, gosh-darnit sort of politician like Carter or Clinton, but yet not like Carter or Clinton?

Bush was not that sort of person either - he was a seasoned politician who had served in the military and was director of the CIA.

The democrats need somebody the American people believe over the lies of Trump. Nothing more needed than that......well other than being male (that damn glass ceiling).

pixelburp · 25-07-2018 9:20am

Penn wrote: »

The Trump Administration has edited out a part of the Helsinki press conference with Trump and Putin to remove a reporter asking Putin if he wanted Trump to win the election

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/trump-white-house-edits-putin-support-for-trump-out-of-transcript-1284716611545?playlist=associated

I'm presuming then that the records of state visits aren't legally protected, or required to have 100% accurate transcripts. Though given the poverty of staff in the WH at the moment, I wouldn't put it past them to be unknowingly breaking the law here - but who's going to pull them up on it?

irishash · 25-07-2018 9:22am

pixelburp wrote: »

I'm presuming then that the records of state visits aren't legally protected, or required to have 100% accurate transcripts. Though given the poverty of staff in the WH at the moment, I wouldn't put it past them to be unknowingly breaking the law here - but who's going to pull them up on it?

If somebody edited a protected document and that meant the law was broken, you can be sure somebody in the US is all over it, like flies on the stuff that comes out of Trumps mouth.

batgoat · 25-07-2018 9:23am

ELM327 wrote: »

Yet another example of this condescension

The point about the bushes was correct.

The meaning was clear. Pointing to where they were born or educated is irrelevant. The bushes are Texans.

Even the superbowl commentary when the bushes did the coin toss referred several times to their Houston residence (even once erroneously as a Houston native).

But the point behind this is that you can apparently feel free to deride me, call me stupid, mock me, all without any sort of moderation.

You specifically stated that you are more likely to support Trump when he makes racist statements...

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Who doesn't want free trade?

I imagine people will be happy to see the end of the EU's high import tarriffs?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1021909900941815809

The entire idea is nonsensical to open up free trade entirely with the US unless he plans to seek EU membership or trade zone membership. The WTO wouldn't allow for such an agreement outside of it.

Thepoet85 · 25-07-2018 9:29am

Penn wrote:

The Trump Administration has edited out a part of the Helsinki press conference with Trump and Putin to remove a reporter asking Putin if he wanted Trump to win the election

Absolutely incredible. Orwellian would be an understatement. And he's the one shouting "Fake News".

I'd be interested to see how his supporters here spin this one.

Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

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