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Irish Championship 2018

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    Allowing juniors into the Irish Championship when they are below 1900 and not allowing middle aged or elderly people with the same (or higher) ratings in stinks of ageism. No doubt the excuse that young players have potential will be made but equally could it not be said that older players have more experience and were perhaps well over 1900 in the past? A bit sneaky too to slip them in at the last minute when people have already committed to play and not arranged alternative holidays.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭ HaraldSchmidt


    @sodacat: I checked the current FIDE ratings of the entrants with ICU ratings less than 1900.
    Conor Murphy is rated 2314.
    Eamon Keogh is rated 1966.
    Zalan Nemeth is rated 1880
    Alice O'Gorman is rated 1881
    Peter Carroll is rated 1733.

    Peter seems to be a fast improving player, and he he scored 4.5/6 in the Bunratty challengers in February. You'll have to keep your wits about you!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    @sodacat: I checked the current FIDE ratings of the entrants with ICU ratings less than 1900.
    Conor Murphy is rated 2314.
    Eamon Keogh is rated 1966.
    Zalan Nemeth is rated 1880
    Alice O'Gorman is rated 1881
    Peter Carroll is rated 1733.

    Peter seems to be a fast improving player, and he he scored 4.5/6 in the Bunratty challengers in February. You'll have to keep your wits about you!

    Anyone rated 1700 can now apply and I don't see how they can be reasonably refused entry. What should have been the best and strongest Irish Championship ever is now becoming a bit of a sham. I would never have entered had I known that this was going to happen but I've made arrangements now so I'm stuck with it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭ Retd.LoyolaCpt


    I'm halfway through writing a preview of the event where I would list the wildcards but might as well chime in here as it won't be finished for another day or so:

    Alice has a live FIDE over 1900 at the time of writing and will likely be 1900+ on the upcoming FIDE list - she gained 20-30 points in Spain last week and subsequently asked could she enter. As she is over 1900 - the organising committee have no right to say no as far as we're concerned. Not a wildcard - entered within criteria.

    Peter Carroll was over 1900 again as recently as last week - he gained 90 points in an event in Spain and his live ICU must have again been close if not over 1900. He planned for this event 4 months ago when his ICU was whatever I said it was above (1900+) and he's the U19 Irish Champion. He is a wildcard.

    Zalan Nemeth applied for a wild card this weekend and was accepted. He's 1800+ on both lists, an international and clearly still improving.

    Other players who asked for wilcards but have not yet entered:
    Luke Scott: as of Saturday at the end of the last event he played, he was over 1900 FIDE live and should be on the upcoming FIDE list. Again, good enough for the organising committee. He's played the last two Irish Championships.

    Matt O'Leary: applied for a wildcard when he was roughly 1850 on both lists and he wanted to plan ahead to play the Irish and the world seniors. We looked favourably on his application as he's one of our internationals, has a strong history in the event and couldn't wait until the last minute to know.

    Dermot Nolan: this isn't a wildcard as his live ICU will be 1900+ once the Glorney is rated.

    Others (2 that I remember) have had wildcard applications rejected.


    @sodacat - I do not decide when players apply for wildcards, naturally some will apply before the deadline. Some will do so at an early stage. I also do not decide the age of these players - there's nothing in the guidelines suggesting they must be juniors as far as I'm aware.

    I will not encourage players to just get over 1900 and then sit on that rating for 3-4 months just to play the Irish. I would prefer they go out like Peter, Matt and Dermot and represent their country without fear of missing out on the Irish Championship as a result.

    If you think an Irish with 12 of the top 16 players is a sham, then I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for in an Irish.

    I must say that I can't wait for it - from purely a fan of Irish chess' perspective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    Well at least they are all reasonably rated on the "live" list but I seem to remember reading somewhere about the July rating lists being used. I don't know why such things are ever said when there is clearly no intention of honouring them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    Quote "If you think an Irish with 12 of the top 16 players is a sham, then I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for in an Irish."
    I'm looking for a tournament where there is a clear qualifying standard that is adhered to without exception.
    Yes having 12 of the top 16 is fantastic and it would be nice to get to play a few of them instead of having to play 17 and 1800s , I can do that in any weekender.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cdeb


    In fairness, I think Retd Loyola Captain has shown a number of times on this thread that the rating band is being fairly strictly adhered to (with maybe one exception)

    There are times when it's right to complain about rating bands (I remember playing a 1300 in the U-1600 in Kilkenny one year...and losing!) - but this isn't one.

    It looks like one of the best Irish Championships ever, and point scoring over allowing someone whose rating isn't over 1900 any more is petty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    cdeb wrote: »
    In fairness, I think Retd Loyola Captain has shown a number of times on this thread that the rating band is being fairly strictly adhered to (with maybe one exception)

    There are times when it's right to complain about rating bands (I remember playing a 1300 in the U-1600 in Kilkenny one year...and losing!) - but this isn't one.

    It looks like one of the best Irish Championships ever, and point scoring over allowing someone whose rating isn't over 1900 any more is petty.

    It isn't point scoring. I've been playing in Irish Championships since before you and Retd Loyola Captain were born and I remember what a privilege it was just to qualify and how hard fought each and every game was. Over the years I've seen the tournament become undermined, it has lost much of the intensity it used to have.
    This year the ICU deserves great credit in attracting almost all our best players but the admission of some people who shouldn't be in it, according to the original regulations (i.e 1900 on the JULY rating list) leaves a sour taste in the mouth. I am left wondering if influence was exerted by the people who coach these youngsters or perhaps by their wealthy parents or what was the reason that they were allowed to flaunt the rules. I will be proposing at the ICU agm that in future the 1900 rating floor is strictly observed so that there can be no controversy concerning any entrant and that anyone who plays in an Irish Championship will have earned the right to do so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 214 ✭✭ zeitnot


    sodacat11 wrote: »
    It isn't point scoring. I've been playing in Irish Championships since before you and Retd Loyola Captain were born and I remember what a privilege it was just to qualify and how hard fought each and every game was. Over the years I've seen the tournament become undermined, it has lost much of the intensity it used to have.
    This year the ICU deserves great credit in attracting almost all our best players but the admission of some people who shouldn't be in it, according to the original regulations (i.e 1900 on the JULY rating list) leaves a sour taste in the mouth. I am left wondering if influence was exerted by the people who coach these youngsters or perhaps by their wealthy parents or what was the reason that they were allowed to flaunt the rules. I will be proposing at the ICU agm that in future the 1900 rating floor is strictly observed so that there can be no controversy concerning any entrant and that anyone who plays in an Irish Championship will have earned the right to do so.

    The “on the July list” part was always going to be hard to meet. That list isn’t final until the end of the month and entry is already closed. In the old days the last list before the championship was usually January or even September of the previous year, and as far as I know entries were accepted based on those lists. Anyway, outstanding job by the organisers so far. Best lineup ever!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    zeitnot wrote: »
    The “on the July list” part was always going to be hard to meet. That list isn’t final until the end of the month and entry is already closed. In the old days the last list before the championship was usually January or even September of the previous year, and as far as I know entries were accepted based on those lists. Anyway, outstanding job by the organisers so far. Best lineup ever!

    Good point, the July rating probably is too close to the start time but if January is used and then someone gets to 2100 in March there would be an anomaly. Probably the live list is the fairest and most up to date but if someone enters in January with say a 1901 rating and then drops to 1800 by July what would happen? My solution would be 1900 at time of entry whether this is in January or at the last minute when the live list could be used.
    I should mention that there are many 1800 rated players who are improving quickly and are probably good enough to play in an Irish Championship, probably Carroll, O'Gorman, Scott and Nementh being topical examples but they do not satisfy the published entry criteria. My issue is with transparency and an entry stipulation which treats everybody equally and is not something that varies according to anyone's personal opinion or bias.
    Years ago a 1900 or 2000 player had to play out of their skin to achieve a 50% or plus score in an Irish Championship, now it could almost be achieved without having to beat or draw with anyone higher rated.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭✭ ChessPlayer123


    I believe all of those players actually do qualify under invited players Sodacat. And going off of your solution then all but one of those players qualify, and the one who doesn't could just be there to make it even numbers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    I believe all of those players actually do qualify under invited players Sodacat. And going off of your solution then all but one of those players qualify, and the one who doesn't could just be there to make it even numbers.

    "Invited players" is not a category that should exist because it comes down to someone's opinion or bias as to who gets invited. For instance a Gonzaga junior with a 1759 ICU rating got in but a Rathmines junior who is five years younger and with a rating of 1735 did not. It would seem to me that the younger player has more potential but others apparently have a different opinion. That is exactly why a strict 1900 policy is fair to everyone,after all players have a whole year between Irish Championships to achieve that mark. I really think people below 1900 who wheedle their way into the championship show an extraordinary sense of arrogance and entitlement.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cdeb


    How many times has it been pointed out that the 1759 was 1900+ when he entered?

    You've acknowledged already that strict adherence to the July rating list rule is impractical.

    This is all getting rather tiresome I think. As mod, I'll add that any talk on this topic will be deleted during the competition itself. It's been done to death at this stage, and it shouldn't be allowed to distract from possibly the strongest Irish ever


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    cdeb wrote: »
    How many times has it been pointed out that the 1759 was 1900+ when he entered?

    You've acknowledged already that strict adherence to the July rating list rule is impractical.

    This is all getting rather tiresome I think. As mod, I'll add that any talk on this topic will be deleted during the competition itself. It's been done to death at this stage, and it shouldn't be allowed to distract from possibly the strongest Irish ever

    Yes it is very tiresome. Time that I began to do some preparation for the tournament instead of arguing.No doubt the more diligent among us have been ignoring the fine weather and the world cup and have been swotting away like little beavers since April or May. I always have good intentions regarding study and learning some theory but discipline has never been one of my strong points. Anyway before I can begin to think about chess I have qualifying rounds to play for the Captains Prize in the golf club and another tournament in the Curragh. Retirement is tough but somebody has gotta do it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 954 Tim Harding


    According to chess24 David Fitzsimons has defaulted his first round game in the British Championship this afternoon. Has he decided to play the Irish after all, or is he one of many to be affected by the weekend's travel disruption in England?

    FM Conor Murphy's game is live:
    https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/british-chess-championship-2018/1/1/27


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    A bit unambitious for Fitzsimons to choose the British Ch over the Irish. Does he not think that he would have a chance of being Irish Champion?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭ mikhail


    sodacat11 wrote: »
    A bit unambitious for Fitzsimons to choose the British Ch over the Irish. Does he not think that he would have a chance of being Irish Champion?
    Surely it's none of your business which tournaments he chooses to play in?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 954 Tim Harding


    sodacat11 wrote: »
    A bit unambitious for Fitzsimons to choose the British Ch over the Irish. Does he not think that he would have a chance of being Irish Champion?

    I don't really know Fitzsimons, but in his position, with the IM title recently secured, playing a tournament with GM norms probably looked like a good idea. In the old 11-round format a 10-game norm might have been still possible, but that is out of the window now because the British is reduced to 9 rounds.

    He may have taken the view that he will have many opportunities in future to win the Irish championship. Now perhaps he will play in Stillorgan after all.

    LATER: I have just seen on the English Chess Forum that chess-results.com (as opposed to chess24) shows Fitzsimons as winning, and not by forfeit. Good news if true. Murphy drew his game.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 954 Tim Harding


    Now confirmed by Jack Rudd (who is in Hull) that there were no forfeits in the Championship today.

    So David is OK and it was just a glitch on chess24. Hopefully his game tomorrow will be live.

    Results at http://chess-results.com/tnr367973.aspx?lan=1&art=2&rd=1&flag=30


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    mikhail wrote: »
    Surely it's none of your business which tournaments he chooses to play in?
    Are we not allowed to have an opinion? I know that if I was 2300 I'd be trying to win the Irish Championship but each to his own I suppose.
    I would point out though that some of our top players, and David more than most, do quite well by the ICU over the years in terms of opportunities , both playing and coaching and that they do receive some financial support in terms of subsidies, prize money and coaching fees so it is not unreasonable for an ICU member (me) to think that they should give something back by playing in their national championship particularly when it is being held on their own doorstep and practically every other top player has made the effort to do so regardless of where they live. Playing in another national championship instead looks to me like some kind of snub but perhaps I am completely and mistaken in thinking this.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 954 Tim Harding


    The August FIDE ratings are now out, which will presumably be used for seedings and pairings (and any norm chances) in the Irish Championship.
    Here are the runners and riders in seeding/descending rating order. (Birth years shown if later than 2000.)

    1. Baburin 2458
    2. Collins 2445
    3. Astaneh Lopez 2411
    4. Jessel 2346
    5. Wall 2341
    6-8= Brady, Murphy and O'Donnell 2336 (alpha order to decide seeding?)
    9. Short 2333
    10. Daly 2329
    11. Tom O'Gorman 2258 [born 2002]
    12. Li 2232 [born 2002]
    13. K. Delaney 2206
    14. Freeman 2205
    15. Wallace 2202
    16. Moran 2155
    17. Murray 2149
    18. G. O'Connell 2148
    19. Shane Melaugh 2086
    20. Kennedy 2077
    21. Butler 2064
    22. Fox 2046
    23. Gavin Melaugh 2029 [born 2003]
    24. Bourached 2026
    25. Rush 2025
    26. M. Manojlovic 1988
    27. O'Neill 1985
    28. Keogh 1960
    29. Cafolla 1955
    30. Tirziman 1943
    31. Conor Nolan 1935 [born 2001]
    32. Alice O'Gorman 1896
    33. Nemeth 1876 [born 2002]
    34. Scott 1873
    35. Dermot Nolan 1841
    36. Carroll 1794 [born 2002]


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    Hopefully there will be grading prizes.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cdeb


    An under 1900 grading prize just to wind you up. ;)

    It's a fantastic line-up. Whoever wins is arguably going to be one of the most deserving Irish champions ever.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 954 Tim Harding


    There appears to be an issue about whether FM Conor Murphy will actually play this event. He is currently on 3/5 in the British Championship at Hull, which continues until Sunday. Has he indicated his intentions to the ICU committee yet?


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭ Retd.LoyolaCpt


    There appears to be an issue about whether FM Conor Murphy will actually play this event. He is currently on 3/5 in the British Championship at Hull, which continues until Sunday. Has he indicated his intentions to the ICU committee yet?

    Due in bright and early on Saturday morning - confirmed as of last night.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    cdeb wrote: »
    An under 1900 grading prize just to wind you up. ;)

    .

    Don't even joke about it. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 954 Tim Harding


    Due in bright and early on Saturday morning - confirmed as of last night.

    I was just reading the minutes of the FIDE Arbiters Commission last meeting in Athens at the end of June (see http://arbiters.fide.com/) where one of the issues that came up was precisely this issue of players "hopping between tournaments", i.e. not finishing one because they weren't doing especially well and moving to another where the dates overlapped.

    An email from an IA was discussed who noticed two other players who (like the Irish FM in this case) had entered overlapping events so that switching between them was clearly premeditated. He said "I think, as a rule, a player who leaves a tournament in progress, should not be allowed to play in any other tournament, as long as the tournament he has left is still in progress."

    The meeting decided that: "This concern should be addressed to the FIDE Events Commission and/or the FIDE Rules Commission" at Batumi.

    My question(s) for ICU is: how long have they known about this situation, did they consider refusing the entry from the player concerned, and in future will they bring in a regulation to prevent any recurrence?

    (I appreciate that they may not want to reply on the Board about this, especially as the Irish Championship has not yet started, but in that case it should be dealt with in one of the officers' reports to the agm.)


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭ Retd.LoyolaCpt


    My question(s) for ICU is: how long have they known about this situation, did they consider refusing the entry from the player concerned, and in future will they bring in a regulation to prevent any recurrence

    I've known about 10 days - I sent an email to clarify the situation before entries closed. The situation was clarified - ie as I've said, the player intends to play all 9 rounds of the Irish.

    Would I do anything to stop this in future? Probably not unless directed to do so by FIDE - players enter and pull out of events before they start, can be erroneously entered into events the odd time or left on entry lists once they've pulled out. So, in the first place it would be difficult for me to track players and their whereabouts. I also don't have contact details for every single player so I'd be punishing those more on the grid than others if I was to contact them. I would file players entering and pulling out during events under "poor form" in all instances unless there's a good reason or there's an odd number of players - but I don't see it as a sanctionable offense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭ sodacat11


    I think in the case of an all play all tournament a player pulling out before the end just because he isn't doing well should be a sanctionable offence.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭ mikhail


    And how do you establish that? We're not professionals. Real life intervenes sometimes. If I had to drop out of a tournament because a family member was ill or there was a work emergency and was sanctioned for it, I'd be less than impressed.


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