Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

aloyisious · 21-07-2018 4:01pm

dudara wrote: »

Putin had a huge dislike of Hilary, and I think it was important to him that she should be stopped. He would have backed whoever was up against her, the fact that it was gullible and malleable Trump was just icing on the cake. They were able to exploit her flaws very effectively, both through social media and by priming Trump (IMO).

Putin has also tried to play mind games with Merkel. (http://uk.businessinsider.com/putin-merkel-meeting-dog-2017-7?r=US&IR=T ) Whether you like her or not, she’s strong and intelligent and wouldn’t be inclined to back down from Putin.

That might explain Don's personal digs at Merkel and Germany about Russia supplying most of Germany's fuel and it owning Germany, and Germany being behind the EU [as a market-force] and the Euro before the Helsinki meeting, though the last two conflict with what Don sees as Russia owning Germany. Its probably more that he can't cow [no pun intended] Merkel. If Putin served in Germany, it's be the East where German locals would have feared his ilk & he knows Merkel was such a local. The East German Guard-dogs there spring to mind.

aloyisious · 21-07-2018 4:04pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Trump still not understanding the concept of a search warrant.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1020642287725043712

Maybe he should consult a lawyer, putting his 2nd complaint first….. Rudy!!!

Captain Obvious · 21-07-2018 4:25pm

More tales of woe from the camps. It's really indicative of how little the children are really cared for.

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/immigrant-shelters-drug-traumatized-teenagers-without-consent/

Fleeing an abusive stepfather in El Salvador, Gabriela headed for Oakland, California, where her grandfather had promised to take her in. When the teenager reached the U.S. border in January 2017, she was brought to a federally funded shelter in Texas.

Initially, staff described her as receptive and resilient. But as she was shuttled from one Texas shelter to another, she became increasingly depressed. Without consulting her grandfather, or her mother in El Salvador, shelter staff have prescribed numerous medications for her, including two psychotropic drugs whose labels warn of increased suicidal behavior in adolescents, according to court documents. Still languishing in a shelter after 18 months, the 17-year-old doesn’t want to take the medications, but she does anyway, because staff at one facility told her she wouldn’t be released until she is considered psychologically sound.

badtoro · 21-07-2018 6:03pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It has to be said though that there was a sustained, bitter, vehement, toxic campaign of lies and propaganda against her.
If anyone wants to look for Russian meddling there it is, right there.

Oh sure, I agree. But she didn't do her best as a candidate imo. Wasted opportunity for the Dems.

badtoro · 21-07-2018 6:09pm

irishash wrote: »

She was always fighting an uphill battle and any other woman in the future will face the same.

Can only refer you to the previous black president. Unless we wanna jump down the rabbithole of their being no race issues in the US? All it will take to get a female American president is the right candidate, the entire countries "gender issues" do not need to be solved first, nor does the thing need to start from the grassroots up with quotas etc. - or we would never have had presidential candidate Hillary.

StringerBell · 21-07-2018 6:20pm

badtoro wrote: »

Oh sure, I agree. But she didn't do her best as a candidate imo. Wasted opportunity for the Dems.

Most of the campaign I was sure she had gotten so lucky to be running against Trump as I thought it was the only way to get her into the presidency. Couldn't believe someone so obviously unfit for the office could get in.

I was wrong of course and it is important to me anyway to learn from that and never underestimate people again. To make sure to venture outside the echo chamber and see what the other echo chamber is saying too.

Absolutely one is more insulated than the other but it is important to recognize it happens on both sides and to try be as informed as possible from the outside looking in

spacecoyote · 21-07-2018 6:52pm

badtoro wrote: »

I don't agree either with the woman in power type comment. How many said that before Obama was elected that a black man would never be president? How many wanted Michele Obama or oprah to run, it just needs to happen, rather than there being a problem. It's like Dana not being president here, shes one woman, the wrong woman. When we've had good women presidents.

I think that you might be underestimating how large the gender divide is in parts of America.

I watched a video a couple of weeks ago which was a catch up with rust belt voters who voted Trump to see what they thought.

One guy in particular said, "I've always voted democrat & didn't like what Trump said a lot of the time but I just wasn't ready to vote for a woman to the president". He said it very matter of fact, came across as a genuine, reasonable person, but gender was top big a leap for him.

She wasn't a particularly likeable candidate & the fact the FBI announced they were investigating here didn't help either, but you can't dismiss gender as a massively important factor for a large portion of voters in swing states

Itssoeasy · 21-07-2018 7:17pm

aloyisious wrote: »

Maybe he should consult a lawyer, putting his 2nd complaint first….. Rudy!!!

Also why did he reference George Washington in his tweet at the very end ?

Oh wait sorry he thinks he's the favourite president ? Ah sure isn't it great he has a sense of humour about these things.

pixelburp · 21-07-2018 7:28pm

I think the potential legality issue being implied is that Cohen recorded Trump without the latter knowing, but as I understand it, New York has 1 party consent for recordings; therefore Cohen was well within his rights to tape the meetings without Trump's own knowledge or agreement. Many other states demand 2 party consent, which is the fudging and disinformation that Trump and co. will rely on to discredit this latest piece of evidence.

aloyisious · 21-07-2018 7:49pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Also why did he reference George Washington in his tweet at the very end ?

Oh wait sorry he thinks he's the favourite president ? Ah sure isn't it great he has a sense of humour about these things.

George said he could never tell a lie, and is therefore eminently trustworthy, though if Don is hinting that he is similar to George in that respect he is being disrespectful to one [George] of the original REPUBLICANS.

aloyisious · 21-07-2018 8:14pm

Just closing down, saw a report on MSN about Don's isolation since his Helsinki comments on his US Intelligence agency. I'm unable to provide a link to MSN report so googled for info. There are four links on the issue, all bearing a similar story. The oldest from 13 hours ago freshest 4 hours ago, so I went for an original 13 hour one. http://www.readingeagle.com/ap/article/inside-trumps-isolation-after-putin-summit-walkbacks

It seems several of his closest Admin team, incl Mike Pence, got him alone in the Oval Office and talked him into his walk-back. Para 2 of the report refers.

jooksavage · 21-07-2018 8:32pm

pixelburp wrote: »

I think the potential legality issue being implied is that Cohen recorded Trump without the latter knowing, but as I understand it, New York has 1 party consent for recordings; therefore Cohen was well within his rights to tape the meetings without Trump's own knowledge or agreement. Many other states demand 2 party consent, which is the fudging and disinformation that Trump and co. will rely on to discredit this latest piece of evidence.

Correct. All but 11 states require 2 party consent for recordings.

Captain Obvious · 21-07-2018 8:53pm

aloyisious wrote: »

Just closing down, saw a report on MSN about Don's isolation since his Helsinki comments on his US Intelligence agency. I'm unable to provide a link to MSN report so googled for info. There are four links on the issue, all bearing a similar story. The oldest from 13 hours ago freshest 4 hours ago, so I went for an original 13 hour one. http://www.readingeagle.com/ap/article/inside-trumps-isolation-after-putin-summit-walkbacks

It seems several of his closest Admin team, incl Mike Pence, got him alone in the Oval Office and talked him into his walk-back. Para 2 of the report refers.

It's from Associated Press sources I believe

Vice President Mike Pence, National Security Adviser John Bolton and chief of staff John Kelly stood united in the West Wing on Tuesday in their contention that the commander in chief had some cleanup to do. They brought with them words of alarm from Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, as well as from a host of congressional leaders and supporters of the president for whom Trump’s public praise of Putin proved to be a bridge too far.

https://apnews.com/3bf4a82e32af4240a9528bcadc5e2411/Inside-Trump's-isolation-after-Putin-summit,-walkbacks

aloyisious · 21-07-2018 10:16pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's from Associated Press sources I believe

https://apnews.com/3bf4a82e32af4240a9528bcadc5e2411/Inside-Trump's-isolation-after-Putin-summit,-walkbacks

As I see it, the presence of Mike Pence in the group [from what seems to be his obscurity in recent times] is a clear sign that the GOP has had enough of Don's dalliance with Vlad. It hasn't produced the goods and is damaging to what the GOP stands for. EDIT: IT MIGHT BE AN INDICATOR that the GOP is on a damage limitation exercise over Don's Helsinki speech. What effect it will have will be shown in relation to who is fully present during the entire time Don meets Vlad in the Oval Office [if a diplomatic flu doesn't call a halt or delay to the planned meeting]. His presence as a GOP senior, distinct from Don's appointed staffers, tells the tale.

I could also surmise that it is a signal to Don that the GOP may be in a mind to call in his boat and replace him as it's captain, and he has understood the call.

pixelburp · 21-07-2018 11:04pm

Constitution experts: can a sitting President replace a VP without approval from any other branch of government? Trump has fired all and sundry from many posts, but I'd presumed Pence is safe in what amounts to a protected role? If Trumps flailing moods swung negatively towards Pence, I wonder if he could be sacked.

amandstu · 21-07-2018 11:35pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Constitution experts: can a sitting President replace a VP without approval from any other branch of government? Trump has fired all and sundry from many posts, but I'd presumed Pence is safe in what amounts to a protected role? If Trumps flailing moods swung negatively towards Pence, I wonder if he could be sacked.

Google is yer only man
https://www.quora.com/Can-the-President-of-the-United-States-fire-the-Vice-President

https://www.google.ie/search?q=can+the+president+sack+the+vice+president&oq=%22sack+the+vice+president%22&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l2.12966j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

ptl:)

Water John · 22-07-2018 12:29am

Will Pence be, sitting in, on the next meeting between Trump and Putin to take place in the WH?

amandstu · 22-07-2018 12:35am

Water John wrote: »

Will Pence be, sitting in, on the next meeting between Trump and Putin to take place in the WH?

Will it be called the Gooseberry Convention? ðŸ˜Š

StringerBell · 22-07-2018 1:10am

I'd give the theory that the tapes leaked from Trumps side plenty of weight. He has been looking for distractions from that disaster at Helsinki all week, Cuomo did a pretty good piece on it last night for anybody who didn't see/would have an interest.

Other than that I don't see anything from the GOP other than covering their asses as always. They can grow tired or get impatient with Trump and his behavior all they want. They won't actually do a thing to curtail him. The Republican party is now the party of Trump. According to some reports they willingly have admitted privately plenty of discontent but feel pretty powerless to do anything. If they go against him openly he will decimate them and they will likely get primaried by some nut job. They won't commit political suicide, patriots that they are. Better to cling on and ride him out than put country first.

derb12 · 22-07-2018 1:23am

Rachel maddow also did a compelling piece on how trumps team released it now as a tactical diversion from all the treason clamour and also to give Cohen fewer bargaining chips with prosecutors when it comes to him turning on trump. This was one of the few attorney client privilege items that was identified by the special master assigned to Cohens raided materials, so prosecutors would not have seen it unless leaked now (better for trump as he controls the narrative) or later (better for Cohen)
It’s the first evidence of any grownups on the trump team coming up with a genuine strategy!

RIGOLO · 22-07-2018 7:46am

rossie1977 wrote: »

Trump is 72, Biden 75 and Sanders is 76 so not alot between them age wise.

As far as polarizing goes it really depends on can the Democratic candidate win Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. There won't be anywhere near the black cloud hanging over whatever candidate the Dems pick next summer compared to Clinton whom right wing media and the Republican party had been preparing to face since 2004.

In the end regardless who the Dems pick the 2020 election is going to come down to a handful of states. Trump's not winning a state he didn't win in 16 unless something dramatic like 9/11 happens between now and then and whatever candidate Dems pick they aren't winning any state in the deep South or great plains obviously meaning only the yellow states are up for grabs

Did you pinch those ideas from the Trump campaign ?
Cos thats pretty much what their strategy as and they have been very open and vocal about that.

Thats what the Trump administration did and it played a huge part in them winning the election.
More evidence of the adults in that administration pre election making the best decisions.

Also your adding to the argument that Russian meddling , whilst helpful, was not the main reason Trump won.
Your pointing out the importance of winning swing states and to this point Trump had a better team, better campaign, better social media campaign, visited the states he needed to win , did more press conferences, basically his campaign acted more like adults in their strategy and tactics.

Oh and before the Dems ask can they win those states (Penn, Wis, Mich), they need to make a couple of other decisions, they need to decide WILL the Democratic candidate actually make concerted visits to those states during the campaign or will the candidate fly coast to coast fundraising and treat them as flyover states.

America made the better choice when choosing a President who could win a campaign, than choose a President who couldnt run a campaign and ultimately managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. HRC spend a billion dollars , oops we forgot to visit the swing states, and lost the election cos of 70,000 in 3 states.

The Dems wont represent a real threat in 2020, they got so lost in identity politics , they have lost their own identity and the factions within the party are still vying for control . It will take 10 years for them to figure out who and what they are and for the old guard to give up control to whatever new form the take. The Republicans are locked in for 2020 and even beyond.

FrostyJack · 22-07-2018 8:03am

RIGOLO wrote: »

The Dems wont represent a real threat in 2020, they got so lost in identity politics , they have lost their own identity and the factions within the party are still vying for control . It will take 10 years for them to figure out who and what they are and for the old guard to give up control to whatever new form the take. The Republicans are locked in for 2020 and even beyond.

You could say the exact same for the GOP, they are lost and now the party of Trump and will have that stain for decades. The weekly mess up by Trump and when the economy falters, which will happen ( though he will blame Hillary, Obama, JFK, immigrants etc) he will be found out he has don't nothing but embarrass the country on the World stage, kill ties with allies and pushed the nation debt through the roof. All he done is keep the momentum of the Obama economy but instead of doing so like an adult, he has lowered tax revenue and increased spending to keep it as it was, which is not sustainable.

RIGOLO · 22-07-2018 8:04am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think that the USA has become a failed experiment. For a long time, its problems were masked by its economic success and prosperity. However, the tide of anti-intellectualism, doublethink and raw hatred that Donald Trump is currently riding can only lead to somewhere terrible. The alt-right has currently become the mainstream while moderate Republicans like Jeff Flake of Arizona are very much sidelined. Meanwhile, the left continues to appeal to individual minority groups and lacks any sort of galvanising narrative which they need if they're ever going to have a broad appeal.

The USA, like the two political parties that have governed it is simply too grand a coalition to survive in its current form. I don't know what the next shock is going to be but I think it needs to either split up entirely or cede much more decision-making power to individual states while reforming its political system. Given the lack of interest in the latter, I think the former is more likely to happen.

The US a failed experiment, where to start, how does one address that concept, one could say if America is a failed experiment why are so many people from South America trying to get there, one could point out WWI and WWII when Europe imploded (literally) and the US had to come to its rescue from the European armageddon, you could point out the US as it stands today is over 200 years old whilst the EU is less that 50. ... the list goes on and on or one could simply say if you argue with an idiot it just makes 2 idiots.

The only experiment failing , is the neoliberal, leftist idealogue with its worship of the globalisation dollar.

As to giving more-decision making back to states, did you rob that line from the Trump administration. You do know that was a policy Trump ran on, to remove Federal beauracracy and give the power back to states and inidividuals.

I think the anti-Trumpers are waking from their stupour, unfortunately most of the revelations they are having are borrowed from the TRump campaign/administration policy.
Ive always known that in the long game once the left had shed all their tears and broke all their toys and started to look for real policys and real solutions that might work in the real world they would soon come to realise they havent any left cos Trump Administration is actually implementing many of those policies already.

Outlaw Pete · 22-07-2018 9:58am

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Another poor reflection on Trump supporters

All over a balloon.

Idiots on both sides.

https://twitter.com/WiredSources/status/1020877591262236673

Townton · 22-07-2018 9:59am

pixelburp wrote: »

Constitution experts: can a sitting President replace a VP without approval from any other branch of government? Trump has fired all and sundry from many posts, but I'd presumed Pence is safe in what amounts to a protected role? If Trumps flailing moods swung negatively towards Pence, I wonder if he could be sacked.

No he can't the VP is pretty much the only position with a seat in the executive branch that the president can't replace. Its an elected position and also has functions as president of the senate, often being the tie breaking vote in the senate particularly in recent years.

Igotadose · 22-07-2018 10:06am

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Idiots on both sides.

None of this is surprising in the least. As Whoopi Goldberg said to Judge Pirro, Trump's encouraged this all through the campaign and every day in office. "The President is what the country is becoming" was a quote I read some time ago, definitely appropriate for this POTUS.

Townton · 22-07-2018 10:07am

FrostyJack wrote: »

You could say the exact same for the GOP, they are lost and now the party of Trump and will have that stain for decades. The weekly mess up by Trump and when the economy falters, which will happen ( though he will blame Hillary, Obama, JFK, immigrants etc) he will be found out he has don't nothing but embarrass the country on the World stage, kill ties with allies and pushed the nation debt through the roof. All he done is keep the momentum of the Obama economy but instead of doing so like an adult, he has lowered tax revenue and increased spending to keep it as it was, which is not sustainable.

He has also cut a massive amount of regulation, which from a business perspective particularly small and medium has been far more effective and helpful then the tax reforms/cuts. Both together are really adding to the economy dispite what some said prior to their implementation. Was in the US couple of months ago and a number of small and medium business owners (most of restaurant owners) have said they have never seen it so busy. Food for thought but on the ground thinks certainly seem to be working. Which will be very hard for the Dems to counter unless there is some sort of slow down. As Bill Maher said he is hoping for a recession because without one the Dems could unfortunately be in trouble. But plenty of time to go yet!

Christy42 · 22-07-2018 10:13am

Wait you admit Russia attempted to meddle in the election (whether or not it had a material effect is a different argument) and yet you are OK with the US president being entirely OK with this attack and defending the attackers to the hilt?

It is interesting that you keep talking about the long game when Trump is giving out about the fed who are simply looking out for the long term health of the economy and preventing Trump from overheating while he searches for short term victories.

I think the plan of giving the states more powers (a Republican plan by the way, not specific to Trump himself) is simply due to the failed nature of political discourse in the country - the US president no longer stands for, or even pretends to stand for, the entire country. Devolution on the scale indicated would simply be admitting the country is fractured beyond repair (in the short term).

Townton · 22-07-2018 10:46am

Christy42 wrote: »

I think the plan of giving the states more powers (a Republican plan by the way, not specific to Trump himself) is simply due to the failed nature of political discourse in the country - the US president no longer stands for, or even pretends to stand for, the entire country. Devolution on the scale indicated would simply be admitting the country is fractured beyond repair (in the short term).

The president was never intended to have such a standing. That was the whole point of federalism and the constitutional make up of the United States. The idea of de centralising power down to the states is actually quite a good one and intended to allow states that felt unrepresented at the federal level to make the majority of their own laws regardless.

Christy42 · 22-07-2018 11:01am

Townton wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

I think the plan of giving the states more powers (a Republican plan by the way, not specific to Trump himself) is simply due to the failed nature of political discourse in the country - the US president no longer stands for, or even pretends to stand for, the entire country. Devolution on the scale indicated would simply be admitting the country is fractured beyond repair (in the short term).

The president was never intended to have such a standing. That was the whole point of federalism and the constitutional make up of the United States. The idea of de centralising power down to the states is actually quite a good one and intended to allow states that felt unrepresented at the federal level to make the majority of their own laws regardless.

Like sanctuary cities (which Trump opposes)?

Certainly a level of local control for local issues is important. However states have a lot of power as is. At what point does the united states become a loose federation? Right now they are mainly missing immigration, issues with respect to the US constitution and tariffs. I am sure there is more I am missing, Manic might point something out.

Those are tough to change on a state by state basis and still claim to be a country.

Certainly the power of the president should be no where near the current levels. I think if the power was in the house you would have local issues looked after more. Now the President has all the power and little reason to speak for specific areas. If the house had the power each rep would have to answer to their communities more instead of just their viewpoint on the president.

Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

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