Fired with no notice

davo10 · 20-07-2018 03:37PM

221B wrote: »

Again, not denying I did something wrong, but just want to clarify that I'm not freelancing for my sister, I designed the cards for free in my own time as a favour, I do this for lots of friends and family members. Her Etsy shop only has 4 sales and two are from our mum, one from me and now the one from my boss. I was just trying to help but I obviously went about it completely the wrong way.

221B, that is freelancing, an particular assignment for different people, in other words you do not work solely for this employer. It matters not if you are paid by your sister, you did an assignment (cards) for another client/business using your employers property and without their consent. This is how they will try to justify the dismissal.

Glass fused light · 20-07-2018 03:45PM

They could justify the dismissal on the freelancing but IMO would loose out on lack of fair process.

20-07-2018 04:00PM

WillyWonkaBar wrote: »

To me, it sounds like a situation that will be best resolved once the dust settles a little bit. Hopefully, once your boss has had time to calm down a little bit you can present your case and see if she can see it from your point of view.

Obviously your boss may still be in a raging fit, in which case be prepared to get your stuff and leave!

The boss had already made a serious hash of things.

By behaving as they have done they're already very likely in breach of most of the accepted necessary steps 'desirable' (read- "do these or you will get your ar$e handed to you at WRC") in any situation that would be reasonably held to be even gross/serious misconduct.

From the version given it seems highly unlikely that this instance would even be judged as that.

Whether the boss is willing to overlook things on Monday or not theyve behaved pretty badly (moral, subjective view) and in a way that makes any claim you'd make highly likely to succeed (process, objective view)

If you don't want to have been sacked, chat to her and ask if this is the case and then make your case person to person.

If you've been sacked, however, hie thee to a solicitor, if your version is fair its a very strong case.

An Ri rua · 20-07-2018 04:05PM

Pelvis wrote:

The argument could be made that "stealing" might fall under gross misconduct and I don't think would require any investigation process or notice.

Pelvis wrote:

Still though, I'd definitely be seeking legal advice.

The Op doesn't need legal advice. Don't waste your precious money Op. Outline the facts in a cogent manner as you have here and send it off to WRC or Rights Commissioner or whatever 1st stop is these days.
I've been through Employment Appeals Tribunal with a ****ty small company, and Labour Court with a govt body. On both counts, wiped the floor with them.
You've done nothing to deserve such shoddy treatment. Save your money and simply submit your case.

runawaybishop · 20-07-2018 05:02PM

Glass fused light wrote: »

The bold bit is the process that the employer must follow, they can't legally sack someone on the spot.

Yes they can, that's what summary dismissal is and the legislation reflects this. Employers can instantly dismiss someone for gross misconduct under certain circumstances, stealing being one.

20-07-2018 05:04PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

Yes they can, that's what summary dismissal is and the legislation reflects this. Employers can instantly dismiss someone for gross misconduct under certain circumstances, stealing being one.

this kind of confident statement without reference to the likely subsequent consequences for the employer is very naive imo

i mean sure. anyone *can* do anything, like

runawaybishop · 20-07-2018 05:10PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

this kind of confident statement without reference to the likely subsequent consequences for the employer is very naive imo

i mean sure. anyone *can* do anything, like

It is incorrect to state an employee cannot be dismissed on the spot.

For example, earlier someone asked would you have to follow a procedure if you punched your boss in the face and was told yes, this is incorrect. Summary dismissal can be applied.

With regard to the ops situation it would hinge on if they admitted to stealing or not.

MetzgerMeister · 20-07-2018 05:19PM

Am I the only one who thinks that this is the doing of an utter bully? The OP said that she worked quite a lot of hours unpaid, albeit in aid of helping out the other employee but my guess is that had she not done this, whatever was being worked on probably wouldn't have been done in time.

It's my opinion that your employer is a bully and although it has been pointed out that you "stole" from her, printing a few business cards does not in any way constitute a termination of employment.

OP If you can, make a list of dates and the hours you worked unpaid. This should be part of your side of the argument and work from there.

runawaybishop · 20-07-2018 05:23PM

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

OP If you can, make a list of dates and the hours you worked unpaid. This should be part of your side of the argument and work from there.

That's completely irrelevant.

MetzgerMeister · 20-07-2018 05:26PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

That's completely irrelevant.

How is it though? OP put in hours for free for the betterment of the business. Surely her boss could reciprocate in some make, shape or form and this would be one.

If this ever went to court it would be a nice feather in the OP's cap.

runawaybishop · 20-07-2018 05:28PM

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

How is it though? OP put in hours for free for the betterment of the business. Surely her boss could reciprocate in some make, shape or form and this would be one.

It doesn't have any bearing on whether the dismissal is unfair or not though.

Realistically the op should contact an employment specialist for legal advice, assuming they want to take this further. An informal chat may also be a good course of action.

mrslancaster · 20-07-2018 05:28PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

It is incorrect to state an employee cannot be dismissed on the spot.

For example, earlier someone asked would you have to follow a procedure if you punched your boss in the face and was told yes, this is incorrect. Summary dismissal can be applied.

With regard to the ops situation it would hinge on if they admitted to stealing or not.

Is there an obligation on the employer for proportionality in using summary dismissal?

I could see that being used where it was a large amount - it seems very severe for twenty business cards, ok the OP should have got permission.

OP does your contract have any details of the company disciplinary procedure or general information about dismissal?

runawaybishop · 20-07-2018 05:29PM

mrslancaster wrote: »

Is there an obligation on the employer for proportionality in using summary dismissal?

Absolutely, but it is not clearly defined.

MetzgerMeister · 20-07-2018 05:30PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

It doesn't have any bearing on whether the dismissal is unfair or not though.

Realistically the op should contact an employment specialist for legal advice, assuming they want to take this further. An informal chat may also be a good course of action.

Agreed. Given the fact that there was no procedure followed I would be inclined to think that it was unfair.

scamalert · 20-07-2018 05:35PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

Yes they can, that's what summary dismissal is and the legislation reflects this. Employers can instantly dismiss someone for gross misconduct under certain circumstances, stealing being one.

actually no they cant knowing who constantly has to deal with such situations even if employee is found stealing you cannot let them go on the spot, doesn't matter how much proof there is even if confessed.If employee worked there decent amount of time and is on payroll they cannot be fired on the spot, sad but true, actually in this case OP as mentioned has more grounds to go to whatever branch of government deals with it and easily wipe the floor on how they were treated.Fact that boss didn't follow any outlined procedures opens them to many liabilities if OP were to pursue damages. Since as said know someone who deals with stuff like that often and they have to thread carefully with each single word said, and have someone present at the same time as witness.

runawaybishop · 20-07-2018 05:43PM

scamalert wrote: »

actually no they cant knowing who constantly has to deal with such situations even if employee is found stealing you cannot let them go on the spot, doesn't matter how much proof there is even if confessed.If employee worked there decent amount of time and is on payroll they cannot be fired on the spot, sad but true, actually in this case OP as mentioned has more grounds to go to whatever branch of government deals with it and easily wipe the floor on how they were treated.Fact that boss didn't follow any outlined procedures opens them to many liabilities if OP were to pursue damages. Since as said know someone who deals with stuff like that often and they have to thread carefully with each single word said, and have someone present at the same time as witness.

The bar may be high, but it is simply not correct to state an employee may not be let go on the spot. Theft, assault etc are all grounds for summary dismissal.

The process whereby an employer decides to immediately terminate an employment contract is legally regarded as a summary dismissal. This power may be exercised in circumstances where the contract of employment expressly stipulates or alternatively where the employee is guilty of serious misconduct.

The exact factors which constitute a serious misconduct may be cited in the contract or alternatively where this is not the case, the individual circumstances of the employment may be considered. However, some actions are so nefarious as to be instantly regarded as such including: deliberately destroying the employer’s valuable property, stealing from the employer, and gross insubordination

Pkiernan · 20-07-2018 05:46PM

JayZeus wrote: »

.....
You have no defense and no claim.

This is an absurd and reckless statement.
You don't know what you are talking about.

scamalert · 20-07-2018 06:10PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

The bar may be high, but it is simply not correct to state an employee may not be let go on the spot. Theft, assault etc are all grounds for summary dismissal.

The process whereby an employer decides to immediately terminate an employment contract is legally regarded as a summary dismissal. This power may be exercised in circumstances where the contract of employment expressly stipulates or alternatively where the employee is guilty of serious misconduct.

The exact factors which constitute a serious misconduct may be cited in the contract or alternatively where this is not the case, the individual circumstances of the employment may be considered. However, some actions are so nefarious as to be instantly regarded as such including: deliberately destroying the employer’s valuable property, stealing from the employer, and gross insubordination

Im with you on that but if it was so easy believe me there would be hundreds people gone each day, current legislations and Acts work both ways and protect misconduct as this would be seen as serious allegation for small damage that person committed, and no proper guidelines where followed going by the story. Unless it was reported minute it was found to gardai, and employer discussed how to approach situation in advance with a lawyer and got green light, which i doubt, seems OP boss got lost in rage and just told it how they seen it, throwing away any legal requirements to follow.

Im not soft on those that deserve boot,in many cases it should be instant but law works in such a way that usually right people end up messing up badly and compensations run high for such mistakes, be it right or wrong.

Diceicle · 20-07-2018 06:13PM

WillyWonkaBar wrote: »

To me, it sounds like a situation that will be best resolved once the dust settles a little bit. Hopefully, once your boss has had time to calm down a little bit you can present your case and see if she can see it from your point of view.

Obviously your boss may still be in a raging fit, in which case be prepared to get your stuff and leave!

Would disagree with this. Even if boss has the sense not to fire on fairly frivolous grounds - there would be a target on OPs back.
OPs best outcome here is to have boss realize they're on to a loser in the WRC and have a payoff to walk away from the job.

20-07-2018 06:15PM

Pkiernan wrote: »

This is an absurd and reckless statement.
You don't know what you are talking about.

It’s not at all absurd or reckless.

Boss is away, employee takes materials without permission and produces printed goods for her own family member, fails to inform employer, waits until caught, admits to taking materials and producing printed goods for her sister and is somehow surprised that her boss considers it to be theft.

No excuse for it.

It wasn’t her material to take. It wasn’t her printer and consumables to use. She’s a part time near minimum wage employee, not an owner or manager with the right to give gratuity to anyone; It wasn’t her right to give anything produced from her employers resources free of charge to anyone, family or otherwise. And she knew it when she was doing it. Her sister knew it also or she would have asked her friend, the OP’s boss.

It was theft. Plain and simple. No request to use resources, failure to inform boss in any way, no effort to make even a token offer. The OP said herself that she’s 100% in the wrong. She knows it and isn’t denying it.

A lot of people don’t want to call a spade a spade here but that’s what it is. And OP, with 2 sales to your mam, 1 to you and 1 to your former boss, your sister and you really didn’t need to be making business cards anyway.

20-07-2018 06:18PM

Pkiernan wrote: »

This is an absurd and reckless statement.
You don't know what you are talking about.

I’d also suggest that if you want to participate, you might contribute something more than sweeping dismissive statements. Articulate your point if you have one to make.

davo10 · 20-07-2018 06:19PM

There is some amount of incorrect info on this thread.

Yes you can be subject to summary dismissal in certain instances, but the employer must still follow procedure and the employee must be given the opportunity to answer the allegations. All Dismissals, even summary type, are deemed unfair until proven otherwise.

Please read this:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html

Taking the ops description at face value, it seems she was very harshly treated and certainly has a case for unfair dismissal which the employer would find hard to defend. The op may have done wrong, but that does not mean she can be fired without the employer going through the necessary procedure to dismiss her.

Having said that, the op will have to consider the potential reputational damage which may result from a WRC case and the effect an accusation of theft which the employer would no doubt level against her as the reason for summary dismissal, would have on her career. The employer has the evidence in the form of the card obtained when she bought an item from the business owned by the ops sister.

Effectively the op has to decide whether a UD case would be worth the hassle, or whether it is better just to move on and accept that using your employers equipment to provide items for her own external, freelance work isn't on.

givyjoe · 20-07-2018 06:21PM

davo10 wrote: »

There is some amount of incorrect info on this thread.

Yes you can be subject to summary dismissal in certain instances, but the employer must still follow procedure and the employee must be given the opportunity to answer the allegations. All Dismissals, even summary type, are deemed unfair until proven otherwise.

Please read this:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html

Taking the ops description at face value, it seems she was very harshly treated and certainly has a case for unfair dismissal which the employer would find hard to defend. The op may have done wrong, but that does not mean she can be fired without the employer going through the necessary procedure to dismiss her.

Having said that, the op will have to consider the potential reputational damage which may result from a WRC case and the effect an accusation of theft which the employer would no doubt level against her as the reason for summary dismissal, would have on her career. The employer has the evidence in the form of the card obtained when she bought an item from the business owned by the ops sister.

Effectively the op has to decide whether a UD case would be worth the hassle, or whether it is better just to move on and accept that using your employers equipment to provide items for her own external, freelance work isn't on.

I haven't get caught up on the 10 pages, has it been established that the op is indeed actually an employee and not a self employed free lancer? If it's the latter then it really doesn't matter what the circumstances, unfair dismissal legislation only applies to employees.

I see she has indeed confirmed being an employee. Employer is on seriously dodgy ground and very much open to an unfair dismissals case.

No contract, no defined disciplinary procedure. Custom and practice of being allowed to use work material for personal use before. Almost nailed on to lose a case if taken, employer I mean. Doesn't seem like there are any procedures in place, never mind following them.

20-07-2018 06:25PM

OP admitted it when she attended the office at employers request and was presented with a printing log and one of the business cards in question. She was informed that it constitutes theft and her keys were taken and she was dismissed. What else do you expect her employer to do procedurally?

Diceicle · 20-07-2018 06:28PM

'stole' and 'theft' being bandied about in this thread like they're going out of style. What OP did was akin to get canned for taking a few pens home from work. Who hasn't done that?
Employer overplayed her hand and should pony up to pay OP off to walk away.

davo10 · 20-07-2018 06:29PM

JayZeus wrote: »

OP admitted it when she attended the office at employers request and was presented with a printing log and one of the business cards in question. She was informed that it constitutes theft and her keys were taken and she was dismissed. What else do you expect her employer to do procedurally?

They have to follow the disciplinary procedure set out in the employees contract or handbook.

Under the unfair dismissals legislation employers are required to give the employee in written notice of the procedures to be followed before an employee is dismissed. This must be done within 28 days of entering the contract of employment.

CiarraiAbu2 · 20-07-2018 06:36PM

JayZeus wrote: »

OP admitted it when she attended the office at employers request and was presented with a printing log and one of the business cards in question. She was informed that it constitutes theft and her keys were taken and she was dismissed. What else do you expect her employer to do procedurally?

Should have been suspended until an investigation took place. I know it sounds ridiculous and what you are writing is correct but the employer will lose this if it goes to the wrc.

Sarn · 20-07-2018 06:41PM

The OP needs to clarify with their employer if they’ve been suspended or fired.

sexmag · 20-07-2018 06:42PM

JayZeus wrote: »

OP admitted it when she attended the office at employers request and was presented with a printing log and one of the business cards in question. She was informed that it constitutes theft and her keys were taken and she was dismissed. What else do you expect her employer to do procedurally?

Op has the right to be called to a interview in written with their employer, what the interview is about,have a representative attend with them and answer the allegations. Did this not happen

221B · 20-07-2018 06:49PM

I want to thank everyone who has answered this post, I've learnt some very useful information. To be honest it's all spiralled a little, I originally just wanted to know if I should ask for my P45, I won't be making a complaint against her or trying to take her to court. We live in a very close knit small community where things like that just don't happen, I would completely ruin my reputation. I've been casting my mind back trying to think if something like this has happened before and I realised it had. I'd created a lovely watercolour floral design which we never ended up using so I threw the test print in the bin, later as I was emptying the bins I felt it was a shame to throw it away so I took it home to put in my scrapbook, a scrapbook I never show anyone. I mentioned this a few weeks later in passing and my boss absolutely lost it, said I was stealing from her because I had created the design while on the clock. I immediately threw it away when I got home. I guess what I'm asking is do I have any rights to the designs I've made in that studio? I've created maybe 50 or 60 over the two years. Should I go back to retrieve the files so I can use them for my portfolio or should I just cut my losses?

Fired with no notice

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