Fired with no notice

Diceicle · 20-07-2018 02:16PM

sexmag wrote: »

Are you actually reading any of the responses in this thread to you? It's been pointed out numerous times to you, even by cup of tea above who works in employment law that the correct process was not followed.

This isn't America,people can't just be fired on the spot and that's it,op should have been suspended until a hearing was had and then fired based on the evidence.

You are way to clouded by your incorrect notion of law

I think they just want to act out their courtroom / Perry Mason fantasies. LMAO

20-07-2018 02:18PM

sexmag wrote: »

Are you actually reading any of the responses in this thread to you? It's been pointed out numerous times to you, even by cup of tea above who works in employment law that the correct process was not followed.

This isn't America,people can't just be fired on the spot and that's it,op should have been suspended until a hearing was had and then fired based on the evidence.

You are way to clouded by your incorrect notion of law

Nonsense. It’s clear cut. Summary dismissal applies. If the employer wanted to initiate an alternative disciplinary procedure there are guidelines which apply. Gross misconduct (theft, clear cut and indefensible in the OP’s case) affords no such rights to the employee. Steal, get caught, admit to it, you’re gone.

Glass fused light · 20-07-2018 02:21PM

JayZeus wrote: »

The number of posters who think the OP in this case is entitled to some ‘due process’ is nuts. She stole, she got caught, she admitted it, she’s gone.

This is the process to follow if the employer wants to pay for a solicitor and spend their time and energy defend and loosing a case which the employee is now entitled to take.

The employee has been allowed to use materials and the machinery before, she was trusted to run the business for a couple of months and made the product while running the business. The boss took the time to order her sisters product and made no effort to follow any kind of employment process, just took the keys and explained why the employee was sacked. Use of the materials and machines is not a cut and dry act of theft so by sacking the employee, and even if it was admitted the employer has not followed proper processes.

OP if you are working for 1/10 of your economic value and acted as business manager for 2 or more months while the boss is away on holidays and are being sacked over 20 business cards without any discussion think of it as a harsh life lesson that your boss only ever seen you as cheap labor to be taken advantage of.

sexmag · 20-07-2018 02:21PM

JayZeus wrote: »

Nonsense. It’s clear cut. Summary dismissal applies. If the employer wanted to initiate an alternative disciplinary procedure there are guidelines which apply. Gross misconduct (theft, clear cut and indefensible in the OP’s case) affords no such rights to the employee. Steal, get caught, admit to it, you’re gone.

I really hope you are not an employer because you will lose a lot of money

ludalyni · 20-07-2018 02:22PM

Pelvis wrote: »

So if I got into my CEOs office and punch him in the face, he's required to follow an investigative process whereby he has to allege I punched him?

He has to go through a process - offer you a chance to explain your actions etc. The legislation and case law is very clear. Once someone has over a year's service an employer must have a fair reason for dismissal AND have followed a fair process in effecting that dismissal.

20-07-2018 02:24PM

sexmag wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/commission-finds-therapist-was-unfairly-dismissed-amid-ugly-atmosphere-in-beauty-salon-856393.html

"WRC Adjudication Officer, Michael McEntee found that no warnings of the dismissal in October 2017 were given and no opportunity to appeal the sacking was offered.

Mr McEntee found that the dismissal was procedurally unfair and that the basic tenets of natural justice in an employment situation were ignored."

Literraly explains what we are saying

The complainant in that case did not steal from their employer. You’ll also note, no compensation was awarded. It’s a completely irrelevant example and has nothing on common with the OP’s situation.

Glass fused light · 20-07-2018 02:24PM

JayZeus wrote: »

Nonsense. It’s clear cut. Summary dismissal applies. If the employer wanted to initiate an alternative disciplinary procedure there are guidelines which apply. Gross misconduct (theft, clear cut and indefensible in the OP’s case) affords no such rights to the employee. Steal, get caught, admit to it, you’re gone.

Summary dismissal is just another wording of unfair dismissal.

goat2 · 20-07-2018 02:25PM

Did your employer tell you, their reason for leaving you go

ludalyni · 20-07-2018 02:26PM

JayZeus wrote: »

The number of posters who think the OP in this case is entitled to some ‘due process’ is nuts. She stole, she got caught, she admitted it, she’s gone.

We don't just "think" she is entitled to due process. It's the law. It's specifically set out in legislation and followed in case law before the WRC every day of the week.

Glass fused light · 20-07-2018 02:28PM

JayZeus wrote: »

The complainant in that case did not steal from their employer. You’ll also note, no compensation was awarded. It’s a completely irrelevant example and has nothing on common with the OP’s situation.

You may want to read up of the member of staff in Dunnes who was eating the sausages....

lawred2 · 20-07-2018 02:31PM

Some puritans on here if what the OP was doing is something they'd consider gross misconduct...

Although how many cards did you print out OP?

ludalyni · 20-07-2018 02:31PM

JayZeus wrote: »

Nonsense. It’s clear cut. Summary dismissal applies. If the employer wanted to initiate an alternative disciplinary procedure there are guidelines which apply. Gross misconduct (theft, clear cut and indefensible in the OP’s case) affords no such rights to the employee. Steal, get caught, admit to it, you’re gone.

Can you point to where in the legislation it says that this is the case? Or to one case where it was held that an employer didn't have to follow some sort of process?!

Twelve Bar Blues · 20-07-2018 02:32PM

JayZeus wrote: »

The complainant in that case did not steal from their employer. You’ll also note, no compensation was awarded. It’s a completely irrelevant example and has nothing on common with the OP’s situation.

I think at this point your just stirring s7!t.
In case you actually are interested in the correct processes everyone is talking about, here's some reading material for you -

https://insighthr.ie/discipline-process-for-gross-misconduct/

https://insighthr.ie/discipline-process-for-gross-misconduct/

20-07-2018 02:35PM

I would debate whether it could really be considered stealing btw. Certainly in most office jobs printing something for personal use is absolutely standard and nobody would feel the need to ask permission. Of course if someone is taking the piss that's another matter but doesn't really apply in this case? In addition you would have to factor in that it has been accepted in the past.

Certainly if I was fired on the spot for printing something for myself with the company's paper and ink I'd be onto my solicitor faster than you can say 'JayZeus has a tenuous understanding of employment law'

20-07-2018 02:37PM

sexmag wrote: »

I really hope you are not an employer because you will lose a lot of money

Ah, that old chestnut.

Twelve Bar Blues · 20-07-2018 02:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I would debate whether it could really be considered stealing btw. Certainly in most office jobs printing something for personal use is absolutely standard and nobody would feel the need to ask permission. Of course if someone is taking the piss that's another matter but doesn't really apply in this case? In addition you would have to factor in that it has been accepted in the past.

Certainly if I was fired on the spot for printing something for myself with the company's paper and ink I'd be onto my solicitor faster than you can say 'JayZeus has a tenuous understanding of employment law'

:rolleyes::pac::pac::pac::pac:

davo10 · 20-07-2018 02:43PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would debate whether it could really be considered stealing btw. Certainly in most office jobs printing something for personal use is absolutely standard and nobody would feel the need to ask permission. Of course if someone is taking the piss that's another matter but doesn't really apply in this case? In addition you would have to factor in that it has been accepted in the past.

Certainly if I was fired on the spot for printing something for myself with the company's paper and ink I'd be onto my solicitor faster than you can say 'JayZeus has a tenuous understanding of employment law'

Did you miss the part where it was outlined that the cards were not for personal use? They were for her sisters business which the op was freelancing for.

Adamocovic · 20-07-2018 02:44PM

I have admitted I know very little from legal standpoint but I see a lot are dismissing JayZeus straight away, and I was thinking the same. A quick search on CitizensInformation site stats:

Gross misconduct may give rise to instant (summary) dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing, bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices. Your contract of employment may contain further information concerning gross misconduct.

Ordinary instances of misconduct may be a series of minor incidents which, when taken together, are enough to warrant dismissal, although your employer is obliged to give you notice or pay in lieu of notice in this type of situation.

Your employer will need to investigate each situation adequately to obtain all the facts of the case. Except in cases of gross misconduct, you must have been given appropriate warnings about your conduct and been made aware that dismissal might result if the problems continue. If this has been done, the dismissal is fair, because you have been given a chance to improve your conduct.

The Workplace Relations Commission's Code of Practice: Grievance and Disciplinary Procedures states that employers should have written grievance and disciplinary procedures and they should give employees copies of these at the start of their employment. Under the unfair dismissals legislation employers are required to give the employee in written notice of the procedures to be followed before an employee is dismissed. This must be done within 28 days of entering the contract of employment.

For me it comes down to the how the person classifies the severity of what OP did. I would have thought personally that if the boss knew the OP well enough and discovered it was for their common friend, OP's sister, they would be more lenient and view it as a disciplinary action but not straight dismissal.

The grey line people have is whether it is stealing, since it's a use of company resources for personal use I would imagine it is classified as stealing. I've changed my mind now regarding the process, but still don't agree with the Boss, think she was entitled to do it (on paper unless someone shows me something to change it back) but really can't wrap my head around her choosing this option. I would classify it similar to firing a great employee for taking some pens from the stationary cupboard to use at home writing notes. Not a perfect example but in terms of value what I imagine.

221B · 20-07-2018 02:47PM

davo10 wrote: »

Did you miss the part where it was outlined that the cards were not for personal use? They were for her sisters business which the op was freelancing for.

Again, not denying I did something wrong, but just want to clarify that I'm not freelancing for my sister, I designed the cards for free in my own time as a favour, I do this for lots of friends and family members. Her Etsy shop only has 4 sales and two are from our mum, one from me and now the one from my boss. I was just trying to help but I obviously went about it completely the wrong way.

billybonkers · 20-07-2018 02:55PM

Do we know if the OP was even fired? Sounds like the manager had a bit of a s**t fit and told them to get out.

Did they say "you're fired"?

Maybe just let things calm over the weekend and ask if you can meet them on Monday for a chat about it all.

20-07-2018 02:55PM

davo10 wrote: »

Did you miss the part where it was outlined that the cards were not for personal use? They were for her sisters business which the op was freelancing for.

I said that the matter was up for debate, which to my eyes it clearly is.

Even your response indicates the same - are you saying that taking card for personal use would be OK? Is the line crossed when a couple of pieces of card are taken as a favour for a friend rather than for the OP themselves? Not sure if there would be any legal distinction between the two to be honest.

I realise some posters are working the whole "you stole, face the consequences" line but I think the supposed theft is so trivial in this context that I am not sure any tribunal will automatically side with the employer.

Again, if I was fired (after due process) because I printed something out on two sheets of paper for a friend, without asking for permission, I would certainly be considering my options. It feels wildly disproportionate.

20-07-2018 02:57PM

BTW my suggestion to the OP is to walk away and don't look back.

You have your employer desperately grovelling for you to return to look forward to.

miamee · 20-07-2018 03:01PM

It does seem wildly disproportionate as Orinoco just said. Considering you consider yourselves to be close friends, has she any other reason to be holding a grudge against you or has she been stung by people stealing from her before?

It's odd that she trusted you enough to run things while she was away and to have your own keys to the office yet checked the logs of what was printed when she returned (fair enough, this might be standard to check on what she'd missed), found something she didn't recognise but declined to ask you about it. She didn't even ask your sister about it either. Instead she went a bit Miss Marple, ordering an item from your sisters Etsy shop to compare card types and only then did she bring it up. Is she generally a bad communicator? It seems like an enormous over reaction given the personal relationships for what amounts to a very small sum of money (card + small amount of ink for 20 cards). Before anyone jumps on me here, I do understand that 'technically' it is stealing but the boss has gone about this in a very odd fashion aside from the employment laws she may be bending or breaking.

I'd give her the weekend and contact on Monday to clarify what's happening.

ludalyni · 20-07-2018 03:06PM

Adamocovic wrote: »

I haveadmitted I know very little from legal standpoint but I see a lot aredismissing JayZeus straight away, and I was thinking the same. A quick searchon CitizensInformation site stats:

"Gross misconductmay give rise to instant (summary) dismissal without notice or pay in lieu ofnotice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing,bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices. Yourcontract of employment may contain further information concerning grossmisconduct.

Ordinary instances of misconduct may be a series of minor incidents which, whentaken together, are enough to warrant dismissal, although your employer isobliged to give you notice or pay in lieu of notice in this type of situation.

Your employer will need to investigate each situation adequately to obtain allthe facts of the case. Except in cases of gross misconduct, you must have beengiven appropriate warnings about your conduct and been made aware thatdismissal might result if the problems continue. If this has been done, thedismissal is fair, because you have been given a chance to improve yourconduct.

The Workplace Relations Commission's Code of Practice: Grievance andDisciplinary Procedures states that employers should have written grievance anddisciplinary procedures and they should give employees copies of these at thestart of their employment. Under the unfair dismissals legislation employersare required to give the employee in written notice of the procedures to befollowed before an employee is dismissed. This must be done within 28 days ofentering the contract of employment."

For gross misconduct you can be dismissed without notice or pay in lieu of notice.

For “normal” misconduct you can only be dismissed with notice (or pay in lieu) and followinga series of warnings (ie you can’t be dismissed for a one off offence).

In each case, the employer must follow a fair process,including an appropriate investigation, before effecting the dismissal.

Bandana boy · 20-07-2018 03:24PM

I think BC got it right
Leave it till Monday go in and have a conversation with your boss and see with a weekend to clam down where she thinks things are .

If this is a sacking and you wanted to take it to court I suspect as things stand right now you would win .But your boss has the weekend to calm down and actually follow a fairer procedure , you could find a letter early part of next which closes most of the gaps ins a summary dismal that are currently missing .

You also have to think about your reputation in this , certainly winning a case like this would black list you with lots (if not necessarily a majority ) of future employers and clients.

I do think though a calm conversation on Monday could easily have this all blow over.

scamalert · 20-07-2018 03:32PM

OP have fallen into her own trap, now you say friends but this seems nothing as fiendish behavior, maybe your boss thought you might off pulled smth like that before, and given that in months time you didnt mention anything prob got onto her, that you might be doing side jobs - using her equipment etc.

So your fault here that your probably being fired for less then 10e, just because you thought working like a team and putting extra effort made you somehow ok with the boss.

Anyway fault falls on both parties boss could taken more decent approach but seems they dont see you as friend of any sort, and ur mistake to even mention that caused friction.

way i see it she has proof of your wrong doing, cost isnt excuse. Cut ties move on, recommendation might be ruined but nothings stopping you to work freelance, as cutting ties seems apropriate action as even if your back things wont be like they used to.

20-07-2018 03:33PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACb2CRmXmFk

Adamocovic · 20-07-2018 03:34PM

ludalyni wrote: »

For gross misconduct you can be dismissed without notice or pay in lieu of notice.

For “normal” misconduct you can only be dismissed with notice (or pay in lieu) and followinga series of warnings (ie you can’t be dismissed for a one off offence).

In each case, the employer must follow a fair process,including an appropriate investigation, before effecting the dismissal.

I understand that.

My point was that stealing classifies as gross misconduct and that since it was use of company resources for a personal gain I can understand the thinking that it would be classified as stealing. However I do side with people that I personally would think it's just normal misconduct, worthy of sitting down talking and a warning.

Glass fused light · 20-07-2018 03:35PM

Adamocovic wrote: »

I have admitted I know very little from legal standpoint but I see a lot are dismissing JayZeus straight away, and I was thinking the same. A quick search on CitizensInformation site stats:

Gross misconduct may give rise to instant (summary) dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing, bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices. Your contract of employment may contain further information concerning gross misconduct.

Ordinary instances of misconduct may be a series of minor incidents which, when taken together, are enough to warrant dismissal, although your employer is obliged to give you notice or pay in lieu of notice in this type of situation.

Your employer will need to investigate each situation adequately to obtain all the facts of the case. Except in cases of gross misconduct, you must have been given appropriate warnings about your conduct and been made aware that dismissal might result if the problems continue. If this has been done, the dismissal is fair, because you have been given a chance to improve your conduct.

The Workplace Relations Commission's Code of Practice: Grievance and Disciplinary Procedures states that employers should have written grievance and disciplinary procedures and they should give employees copies of these at the start of their employment. Under the unfair dismissals legislation employers are required to give the employee in written notice of the procedures to be followed before an employee is dismissed. This must be done within 28 days of entering the contract of employment.

The bold bit is the process that the employer must follow, they can't legally sack someone on the spot.
Natural justice is the idea where you cant just say "X is guilty because I said so".
Eg employer has a suspicion of misconduct.
They have to investigate in an impartial way and inform the employee that there will be a disiplinary meeting to present findings to employee. Then give the employee a chance to review the findings and prepare a defence if they want.
The employer must then consider the evidence/finding in an impartial way taking account of the employees response and only then make a decision as to the outcome and there is usually an appeal process too.

WillyWonkaBar · 20-07-2018 03:37PM

To me, it sounds like a situation that will be best resolved once the dust settles a little bit. Hopefully, once your boss has had time to calm down a little bit you can present your case and see if she can see it from your point of view.

Obviously your boss may still be in a raging fit, in which case be prepared to get your stuff and leave!

Fired with no notice

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