Advisers and senior civil servants.

mariaalice · 18-07-2018 9:34am #1

Political advisors, senior civil servants formulate policies for the ministers of the departments to consider obviously the 'color' of the government is a big influence.

Why are the various advisors and senior civil servants not more well known? and in public focus, after all, they are often the ones advising on policy and should be held to account more particularly if they are paid anything from 60k to 100k.

At the moment look at the mess public-private partnerships that are building various education establishment have become. There should be a mechanism to trace back that policy and hold them responsible for the outcome.

After all, the electorate holds the politicians to account but if someone is essentially being paid for advice should they not be held to account for the advice they proposed.

srsly78 · 18-07-2018 1:50pm

Because they only give advice, they don't make the final decision.

mariaalice · 18-07-2018 4:07pm

srsly78 wrote: »

Because they only give advice, they don't make the final decision.

That's a mealy-mouthed answer, why shouldn't the emergency and supporting of certain policies be traceable back to the individuals who proposed them, especially considering how well paid they are.

They are being paid by taxpayer money.

srsly78 · 18-07-2018 4:13pm

But are not public representatives. Are you really blaming civil servants instead of politicans? Do you want elections for civil servants as well?

noodler · 18-07-2018 4:15pm

mariaalice wrote: »

That's a mealy-mouthed answer, why shouldn't the emergency and supporting of certain policies be traceable back to the individuals who proposed them, especially considering how well paid they are.

They are being paid by taxpayer money.

Buck stops with the people who make the decisions.

How often is their advice ignored BTW?

Also FOI legislation exists. So if there is something about a specific policy formulation that you want to see then ask away.

Hitman3000 · 18-07-2018 4:21pm

I suppose it would be interesting to know if when drawing up policy or proposing policy what effect it would have on the advisors.
What springs to my mind as an example was the raid on private pensions by the government, it would be enlightening to know where the individual's responsible for this dreaming up this proposal safe from its effects.

mariaalice · 18-07-2018 4:23pm

srsly78 wrote: »

But are not public representatives. Are you really blaming civil servants instead of politicans? Do you want elections for civil servants as well?

No not at all but it would lead to a different type of individual in senior or semi-senior position if there was a certain amount of responsibility and public scrutiny, including being able to say the advice was not welcomed.

The public accounts committee is not full public scrutiny.

The special advisors should definitively be open to more scrutiny.

noodler · 18-07-2018 4:37pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I suppose it would be interesting to know if when drawing up policy or proposing policy what effect it would have on the advisors.
What springs to my mind as an example was the raid on private pensions by the government, it would be enlightening to know where the individual's responsible for this dreaming up this proposal safe from its effects.

But were the three rounds of pay cuts on public servants (including a huh her pension contribution) were also "dreamt up" by advisors?

Surely you can see the cherry picking nature of your example.

mariaalice · 18-07-2018 4:37pm

For example, all advisors should be named on the minister's website along with there qualifications and a photography of them. The same with parliamentary assistants.

Hitman3000 · 18-07-2018 4:42pm

noodler wrote:

Surely you can see the cherry picking nature of your example.

I think the 200k that lost their jobs in the recession would have opted for a pay cut instead. Nice deflection btw.
Although I will bite, the pay cuts as you describe them were an economic necessity. Many of those same cuts are being reversed.
Still doesn't answer the question I posed though.

noodler · 18-07-2018 4:58pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I think the 200k that lost their jobs in the recession would have opted for a pay cut instead. Nice deflection btw.
Although I will bite, the pay cuts as you describe them were an economic necessity. Many of those same cuts are being reversed.
Still doesn't answer the question I posed though.

OK.

The raising of taxes was also an economic necessity. Thus the temporary tax on pension funds the contributions to which had been the subject of massive tax reliefs for years.

I'm not sure what your question is, if it's a policy you support then it's "economic necessity", if it's one you don't support then you look for a conspiracy.

Hitman3000 · 18-07-2018 5:07pm

noodler wrote:

The raising of taxes was also an economic necessity. Thus the temporary tax on pension funds the contributions to which had been the subject of massive tax reliefs for years.

The raid on private pension funds is not temporary, the money raided will never be gained back and returns will be lower than should have been. As for massive tax relief I assume you wish to cherry pick the higher private pensions to make your point? Btw the tax relief is deferred tax.

noodler · 18-07-2018 5:36pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The raid on private pension funds is not temporary, the money raided will never be gained back and returns will be lower than should have been. As for massive tax relief I assume you wish to cherry pick the higher private pensions to make your point? Btw the tax relief is deferred tax.

Temporary in terms of how long it lasts.

No taxes are temporary in the way you have described. Strange way to look at it.

Hitman3000 · 18-07-2018 5:39pm

noodler wrote:

Temporary in terms of how long it lasts.

Tell that to the private pensioners who have seen their pensions drop as a result of Noonans smash and grab.

blanch152 · 19-07-2018 12:23am

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The raid on private pension funds is not temporary, the money raided will never be gained back and returns will be lower than should have been. As for massive tax relief I assume you wish to cherry pick the higher private pensions to make your point? Btw the tax relief is deferred tax.

The pension levy on public service pensions isn't temporary either, it has been made permanent in recent legislation.

And that permanent drain on their own salaries was dreamed up by civil servants.

Hitman3000 · 19-07-2018 12:31am

blanch152 wrote:

The pension levy on public service pensions isn't temporary either, it has been made permanent in recent legislation.

The value of the pension is in no way reflected in the contribution made by the employee.

blanch152 · 19-07-2018 12:36am

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The value of the pension is in no way reflected in the contribution made by the employee.

And why should it? In every other decent pension scheme out there, the employer makes a contribution as well as the employee. Furthermore, because it is a group scheme rather than an individual scheme, the individuals who live long enough to get a pension and those who then live long enough to avail of it, benefit from the early deaths of those who don't.

There is a singular lack of understanding out there about the costs of a civil service pension.

Hitman3000 · 19-07-2018 12:55am

blanch152 wrote:

There is a singular lack of understanding out there about the costs of a civil service pension.

There's not actually. Pensions in this sector is unfunded. It is paid for out of day to day spending.

mariaalice · 19-07-2018 9:51am

Moderators any chance of bringing it back on topic it's not about public v private pensions.

19-07-2018 9:53am

Hitman3000 wrote: »

There's not actually. Pensions in this sector is unfunded. It is paid for out of day to day spending.

this is taken apart in fifty other threads. i think you may even have spouted this rubbish last week in one if them.

"what public servants pay towards their pension doesnt count for the point im making" is an accurate summary of your attitude and on this topic you can therefore be dismissed out if hand imo

Hitman3000 · 19-07-2018 10:08am

Deleted User wrote:

"what public servants pay towards their pension doesnt count for the point im making" is an accurate summary of your attitude and on this topic you can therefore be dismissed out if hand imo

Dismissed because you have no coherent response only a snide accusation and a wish to seek to avoid a proper reply. Btw feel free to post a link to the comment you claim I made.

Hitman3000 · 19-07-2018 10:11am

mariaalice wrote:

Moderators any chance of bringing it back on topic it's not about public v private pensions.

Apologies for derailing your thread, my question related to did the advisors/policy makers suffer the consequences of the advice that they sought to have enacted. My example was the private pension grab, no answer was forthcoming and still isn't. I'll leave it at that.

blanch152 · 19-07-2018 11:28am

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Apologies for derailing your thread, my question related to did the advisors/policy makers suffer the consequences of the advice that they sought to have enacted. My example was the private pension grab, no answer was forthcoming and still isn't. I'll leave it at that.

I suspect you are only asking the question thinking you know the answer already, but I will actually give you an honest answer.

Firstly, a general point. Here is the Code of Conduct for Civil Servants:

http://www.sipo.ie/en/Codes-of-Conduct/Civil-Servants/

It pretty much sets out the standards of behaviour and ethics expected of civil servants, requiring them to be impartial in issues such as the one you raise. If you believe that there is a problem with a particular civil servant or group of civil servants, you should raise that issue with the relevant Minister.

Secondly, there is no doubt that some of those responsible for the private sector pension levy were adversely affected by it. Believe it or not, most civil servants are part of a multi-person household, and despite your obvious low opinion of civil servants, many of them manage to secure partners and spouses that work outside the civil service, so their household income will have been adversely affected. That is obvious to anyone who spends more than a minute thinking about the issue. Aside from that, many of the advisers are technically not civil servants, and may not have access to a civil service pension, and will therefore have private pension arrangements affected by this decision.

mariaalice · 19-07-2018 11:54am

blanch152 wrote: »

I suspect you are only asking the question thinking you know the answer already, but I will actually give you an honest answer.

Firstly, a general point. Here is the Code of Conduct for Civil Servants:

http://www.sipo.ie/en/Codes-of-Conduct/Civil-Servants/

It pretty much sets out the standards of behaviour and ethics expected of civil servants, requiring them to be impartial in issues such as the one you raise. If you believe that there is a problem with a particular civil servant or group of civil servants, you should raise that issue with the relevant Minister.

Secondly, there is no doubt that some of those responsible for the private sector pension levy were adversely affected by it. Believe it or not, most civil servants are part of a multi-person household, and despite your obvious low opinion of civil servants, many of them manage to secure partners and spouses that work outside the civil service, so their household income will have been adversely affected. That is obvious to anyone who spends more than a minute thinking about the issue. Aside from that, many of the advisers are technically not civil servants, and may not have access to a civil service pension, and will therefore have private pension arrangements affected by this decision.

That's a really good answer, but in general, how do ideas arise for example privatisation which I personally don't have an issue with as long as there is a lot of ring-fencing around it. Those promoting the idea/ policy should be open to scrutiny. The civil servants are in a different category but special advisors are not, how many people are aware of who they are beyond media gossip or other in groups.

19-07-2018 12:29pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Dismissed because you have no coherent response only a snide accusation and a wish to seek to avoid a proper reply. Btw feel free to post a link to the comment you claim I made.

genuine apologies if you werent in the "civil service- stick or twist" thread a few days back making these very arguments. i should have checked that.

nothing snide, however, in my characterisation of your general thrust. if one wants to call public service pension schemes 'unfunded' as if that is an accurate description simply because the contributions arent treated as they would be in an actual pension fund, but then not be careful to acknowledge the differences and the individual contributions made under the public sector, yeah that is pretty rubbish stuff tbh.

blanch152 · 19-07-2018 1:25pm

mariaalice wrote: »

That's a really good answer, but in general, how do ideas arise for example privatisation which I personally don't have an issue with as long as there is a lot of ring-fencing around it. Those promoting the idea/ policy should be open to scrutiny. The civil servants are in a different category but special advisors are not, how many people are aware of who they are beyond media gossip or other in groups.

Civil servants generally don't promote particular ideas or policies.

Major policy areas are usually opened to public consultation. Have a look at the Project 2040 website for an example of the extent of this consultation.

http://npf.ie/pre-draft-consultation/

The ideas from the public and from interest groups are usually distilled down into a smaller number of options which the Minister and his/her advisers make final decisions. The civil servants usually set out options for decision-makers with clearly laid-out advantages, disadvantages, costs, risks etc. for each option.

The same would apply in smaller policy decisions, but without the same extent of public consultation, sometimes on a smaller scale, sometimes not at all.

As for who the advisers are, the list is on this page:

https://www.per.gov.ie/en/special-advisers-pay/

expectationlost · 19-07-2018 5:46pm

mariaalice wrote: »

For example, all advisors should be named on the minister's website along with there qualifications and a photography of them. The same with parliamentary assistants.

agree with OP that they should be more well known

https://whodoeswhat.gov.ie/ for senior civil servants

notices of appointment are posted to the http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/statutory.html

contracts and qualifications can be found here http://opac.oireachtas.ie/liberty/opac/search.do?=advisors&=special&queryTerm=special%20advisers&mode=BASIC&operator=AND&title=Title%20...%20enter%20here&publicationYear=Year&yearTo=Year%20To&catalogAuthors=Author&mainSubject=Subject&resourceCollection=All&=undefined&modeRadio=KEYWORD&activeMenuItem=false

and names and pay added here https://www.per.gov.ie/en/special-advisers-pay/ as blanch pointed out

TDs asks PQ about them https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2018-01-31a.157

newspapers occasionally do profiles

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/who-runs-ireland-1.1683684

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-government-ministers-special-advisers-names-salaries-2016-2573368-Jan2016/

journos don't like focusing on them because they get info from them too and want to say on their good side.

noodler · 19-07-2018 7:39pm

Gas the demands people make about information that's freely available if they spent more time researching than ranting.

expectationlost · 20-07-2018 12:49am

mariaalice wrote: »

For example, all advisors should be named on the minister's website along with there qualifications and a photography of them. The same with parliamentary assistants.

a list of parliamentary assistants was FOI'd a few years back https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlV6jFjykyK6dGRnQVJ0WXNtNGdoYUZRVFItTTU0emc#gid=0 and could be again, it should be released automatically though

mariaalice · 20-07-2018 12:15pm

noodler wrote: »

Gas the demands people make about information that's freely available if they spent more time researching than ranting.

I know where to find the information that is not the point the fact that a foi had to uses to get information at one point is a perfect example.

Why the fear of total openness?. All concerned are being paid by public money

I do understand the concern of how someone can become the focus, as Tony O Brian did that is not accountability.

blanch152 · 20-07-2018 12:17pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I know where to find the information that is not the point the fact that a foi had to uses to get information at one point is a perfect example.

Why the fear of total openness?. All concerned are being paid by public money

I do understand the concern of how someone can become the focus, as Tony O Brian did that is not accountability.

I am not sure that the government can continue to provide the information as heretofore given the changes in data protection in relation to GDPR. The civil servants and advisers are entitled to their privacy too.

mariaalice · 20-07-2018 12:30pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I am not sure that the government can continue to provide the information as heretofore given the changes in data protection in relation to GDPR. The civil servants and advisers are entitled to their privacy too.

That is a good point but the further up you go there should be less privacy and more public scrutiny of the job its not about the person's private life, someone who is prepared to be open to scrutiny is going to be a better candidate.

blanch152 · 20-07-2018 12:31pm

mariaalice wrote: »

That is a good point but the further up you go there should be less privacy and more public scrutiny of the job its not about the person's private life, someone who is prepared to be open to scrutiny is going to be a better candidate.

I understand, but everyone is entitled to their privacy as Cliff Richard and Denis O'Brien in different ways have been going to court to prove.

mariaalice · 20-07-2018 12:38pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I understand, but everyone is entitled to their privacy as Cliff Richard and Denis O'Brien in different ways have been going to court to prove.

Don't be daft the grandiosity of comparing senior civil servants and advisors to Cliff Richard and Denis O'Brien.

How would having the name, qualifications and a photo of the advisors on the department's website be a gross invasion of privacy? The same with senior civil servants.

blanch152 · 20-07-2018 1:24pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Don't be daft the grandiosity of comparing senior civil servants and advisors to Cliff Richard and Denis O'Brien.

How would having the name, qualifications and a photo of the advisors on the department's website be a gross invasion of privacy? The same with senior civil servants.

No issue with the name and photo, as that would be required to be able to identify them, and is normal practice for senior people in every organisation.

Qualifications, personal salary, personal arrangements, while these are things for appropriate official scrutiny, they are not matters of public interest.

mariaalice · 20-07-2018 1:40pm

blanch152 wrote: »

No issue with the name and photo, as that would be required to be able to identify them, and is normal practice for senior people in every organisation.

Qualifications, personal salary, personal arrangements, while these are things for appropriate official scrutiny, they are not matters of public interest.

I will agree with you on salary specifics as long as the guidelines around the salary for the position are public.

Qualifications yes they should be made public because if a minister has a well-paid advisor( I know well paid is subjective ) and the advisor's qualification are a level in 6 in knitting which they studied for after they were made an advisor.

Personal life is not a matter of public interest unless their family and wider circle have in the past or are now benefiting from a connection to a public representive even if it is all above board.

mariaalice · 20-07-2018 1:43pm

Also employing family irritates people but that in a way is a minor issue but is a public interest issue.

expectationlost · 20-07-2018 1:46pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I am not sure that the government can continue to provide the information as heretofore given the changes in data protection in relation to GDPR. The civil servants and advisers are entitled to their privacy too.

interesting that a journo asked for list of PAs on the 24th of May that day before the GDPR was supposed to come into effect but another FOI requester is asking about their over time etc in July https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/foi/foi-disclosure-log/?q=parliamentary%20assistants&datePeriod=90d

blanch152 · 20-07-2018 1:48pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I will agree with you on salary specifics as long as the guidelines around the salary for the position are public.

Qualifications yes they should be made public because if a minister has a well-paid advisor( I know well paid is subjective ) and the advisor's qualification are a level in 6 in knitting which they studied for after they were made an advisor.

Personal life is not a matter of public interest unless their family and wider circle have in the past or are now benefiting from a connection to a public representive even if it is all above board.

mariaalice wrote: »

Also employing family irritates people but that in a way is a minor issue but is a public interest issue.

I linked earlier to the Code of Conduct for Civil Servants which comprehensively addresses the issues involved in conflicts of interest. The details are not a matter of public interest.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/colleges-told-tighten-rules-on-staff-conflicts-of-interest-466881.html

In higher education the onus is put on governing bodies to consider issues relating to conflict on interest - it is not a matter for the public.

expectationlost · 20-07-2018 1:48pm

blanch152 wrote: »

No issue with the name and photo, as that would be required to be able to identify them, and is normal practice for senior people in every organisation.

Qualifications, personal salary, personal arrangements, while these are things for appropriate official scrutiny, they are not matters of public interest.

even the government doesn't agree with that all those things on listed in the opac for special advisers http://opac.oireachtas.ie/liberty/opac/search.do?queryTerm=special%20advisers&mode=BASIC&operator=AND&title=Title%20...%20enter%20here&publicationYear=Year&yearTo=Year%20To&catalogAuthors=Author&mainSubject=Subject&resourceCollection=All&=undefined&modeRadio=KEYWORD&activeMenuItem=false special advisers have to declare whether they are related or not

the Institute of Public Administration has a book listing all seniors civil servants which bizarrely hasn't made it to electronic format https://www.ipa.ie/publications/ireland-a-directory-2017.2603.html

you can search and find bio of secretary generals on dept websites https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/aboutus/aboutthedepartment/secretarygeneralaidanodriscoll/

trying to find sec gens pay https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/now-top-civil-servants-to-get-8k-pay-increases-35376627.html where is this circular

noodler · 20-07-2018 2:47pm

expectationlost wrote: »

even the government doesn't agree with that all those things on listed in the opac for special advisers http://opac.oireachtas.ie/liberty/opac/search.do?queryTerm=special%20advisers&mode=BASIC&operator=AND&title=Title%20...%20enter%20here&publicationYear=Year&yearTo=Year%20To&catalogAuthors=Author&mainSubject=Subject&resourceCollection=All&=undefined&modeRadio=KEYWORD&activeMenuItem=false special advisers have to declare whether they are related or not

the Institute of Public Administration has a book listing all seniors civil servants which bizarrely hasn't made it to electronic format https://www.ipa.ie/publications/ireland-a-directory-2017.2603.html

you can search and find bio of secretary generals on dept websites https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/aboutus/aboutthedepartment/secretarygeneralaidanodriscoll/

Cost they like selling the hard copies.

There is a website called whatwedo.ie. Or something like that which lists senior civil servants in every dept.

mariaalice · 20-07-2018 4:31pm

The thing about a level 6 in knitting was a feeble joke, I looked up the advisors of a certain minister and one of the advisors has little to no academic qualifications or even experience in the area of responsibility of the minister.

Senior civil servants are different I would hazard a guess that although there might be the odd dud, the vast majority are well educated shrewd and very capable.

The advisors are a different matter and while it is possible to find out all sorts of information that is not the same as being open to public scrutiny.

Again why the fear of complete openness.

expectationlost · 20-07-2018 4:37pm

mariaalice wrote: »

The thing about a level 6 in knitting was a feeble joke, I looked up the advisors of a certain minister and one of the advisors has little to no academic qualifications or even experience in the area of responsibility of the minister.

.

they usual have one policy adviser (which could just have experience in _Policy_ rather then topic) and one communications adviser.

Advisers and senior civil servants.

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