Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

listermint · 17-07-2018 3:23pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's hard to put much weight in photos like that. You can pretty much get a picture with anyone if you attend an event with them.

Over years with the top leadership of the NRA. Over years at personal dinners with the top leadership of the NRA. Over years at multiple occasions with the top leadership of the NRA.

RIGOLO · 17-07-2018 3:25pm

Gbear wrote: »

Can you name another example of anything like this in US Presidential history - that they would not just kowtow to a hostile power, but do it explicitly at the expense of their own intelligence services?

Thats easy, the Obama adminstration ignored its own intellegience reports warning of the rise of ISIS and establishment of a salafist taking advantage of the conflict in Syria. If anything the intelligence agencies got it wrong in 2012 as they identified ISIS as an aid for regime change in Syria. So yeah Obama bent over for ISIS and everyone paid the price, remember the convoys of fighters streaming across the deserts and Obama would not let his military take them out..
http://www.globalresearch.ca/defense-intelligence-agency-create-a-salafist-principality-in-syria-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/5451216
So yeah its easy to find examples of everything and anything.

Just cos the left are suddenly woke to geo-politics and dirty tricks , theres actually nothing new to see here, the US intelligence has as long a history of cockups as it has of successes, and similarily the WH adminsitration are free to tow its own line even if its contrary to the Intelligence reports.

no need for the anti-trumpers to roll out the 'whatboutery comments and use of Obama ' ... someone asked for an example of a prior administration, hence the Obama response.
As a student of history these same events have played out dozens of times before, even the level of mass hysteria and tin hat theories on the left is probably not a first. The fact the left is still behaving like that , I dont see it as a sign of progress. Its a regressive response, thankfully the hysteria is only manifesting and infecting the left and the right will move on with the momentum already in flow.

pixelburp · 17-07-2018 3:26pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

All the back and forth about Trumps performance yesterday has been kinda wild..

Some of the reactions have been OOT and some pretty accurate.

Trump screwed up Royally . Yesterday will be seen as a watershed moment of his tenure regardless of what happens.

Fundamentally for me though his whole performance with Putin and indeed the wider Mueller investigation has less to do with his possible guilt in terms of collusion/corruption and more to do with his rampant Narcissism.

He simply cannot accept in any way shape or form that his Victory in the election was due to anything other than him and only him.

Any acceptance on his part that the Russians (or any body else) influenced the result is simply mentally impossible for him to process.

It is for this reason that he rails against any suggestion of Russian interference.

In his mind , if he was to publicly accept that the Russians tried to influence the result (regardless of whether they actually achieved anything) it would require him to accept that maybe he isn't the perfect titan that he believes he is in his head.

It's not because he's beholden to Putin it's because he's beholden to his ego.

That's a fair assessment actually, although it could be both cases; one shouldn't discount the pure insecurity of Trumps ego, incapable of contemplating the notion that maybe his victory wasn't purely because of his rampant, sexually charged self. Just the fact he still brings up the electoral results at the drop of a hat means he's obsessed with the election, even to this day.

That said, I do think his bullish narcissism likely led him towards decisions and down paths other, cooler heads would have demurred. A history of snap, overconfident decisions that run roughshod over others shows he knows his own mind, regardless of sense or business logic.

Professor Moriarty · 17-07-2018 3:27pm

RIGOLO wrote: »

Thats easy, the Obama adminstration ignored its own intellegience reports warning of the rise of ISIS and establishment of a salafist taking advantage of the conflict in Syria. If anything the intelligence agencies got it wrong in 2012 as they identified ISIS as an aid for regime change in Syria. So yeah Obama bent over for ISIS and everyone paid the price, remember the convoys of fighters streaming across the deserts and Obama would not let his military take them out..
http://www.globalresearch.ca/defense-intelligence-agency-create-a-salafist-principality-in-syria-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/5451216
So yeah its easy to find examples of everything and anything.

Just cos the left are suddenly woke to geo-politics and dirty tricks , theres actually nothing new to see here, the US intelligence has as long a history of cockups as it has of successes, and similarily the WH adminsitration are free to tow its own line even if its contrary to the Intelligence reports.

no need for the anti-trumpers to roll out the 'whatboutery comments and use of Obama ' ... someone asked for an example of a prior administration, hence the Obama response.
As a student of history these same events have played out dozens of times before, even the level of mass hysteria and tin hat theories on the left is probably not a first. The fact the left is still behaving like that , I dont see it as a sign of progress. Its a regressive response, thankfully the hysteria is only manifesting and infecting the left and the right will move on with the momentum already in flow.

As you're here:

You probably missed these questions I asked you in the context of The Donald's tax cuts for the rich and increased spending. I'll ask again:

What is your opinion on the US deficit?
What is your definition of "the left"?

Quin_Dub · 17-07-2018 3:34pm

pixelburp wrote: »

That's a fair assessment actually, although it could be both cases; one shouldn't discount the pure insecurity of Trumps ego, incapable of contemplating the notion that maybe his victory wasn't purely because of his rampant, sexually charged self. Just the fact he still brings up the electoral results at the drop of a hat means he's obsessed with the election, even to this day.

That said, I do think his bullish narcissism likely led him towards decisions and down paths other, cooler heads would have demurred. A history of snap, overconfident decisions that run roughshod over others shows he knows his own mind, regardless of sense or business logic.

Absolutely - No question that a combination of ignorance and hubris during the campaign potentially led him and/or his campaign into making monumentally stupid choices (The Don Jr meeting in Trump tower for example).

That allied to his natural "the ends justify the means" used car salesman attitude to everything he does in life certainly does nothing to disabuse anyone of forming an opinion that corners were cut and laws potentially broken during the campaign..

Captain Obvious · 17-07-2018 3:35pm

RIGOLO wrote: »

As a student of history these same events have played out dozens of times before,

You're definitely not living in the same world as everyone else. Nothing like these events has happened before. We're talking about a hostile act against the US that is both denied and excused by the sitting president.

listermint · 17-07-2018 3:39pm

RIGOLO wrote: »

Thats easy, the Obama adminstration ignored its own intellegience reports warning of the rise of ISIS and establishment of a salafist taking advantage of the conflict in Syria. If anything the intelligence agencies got it wrong in 2012 as they identified ISIS as an aid for regime change in Syria. So yeah Obama bent over for ISIS and everyone paid the price, remember the convoys of fighters streaming across the deserts and Obama would not let his military take them out..
http://www.globalresearch.ca/defense-intelligence-agency-create-a-salafist-principality-in-syria-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/5451216
So yeah its easy to find examples of everything and anything.

Just cos the left are suddenly woke to geo-politics and dirty tricks , theres actually nothing new to see here, the US intelligence has as long a history of cockups as it has of successes, and similarily the WH adminsitration are free to tow its own line even if its contrary to the Intelligence reports.

no need for the anti-trumpers to roll out the 'whatboutery comments and use of Obama ' ... someone asked for an example of a prior administration, hence the Obama response.
As a student of history these same events have played out dozens of times before, even the level of mass hysteria and tin hat theories on the left is probably not a first. The fact the left is still behaving like that , I dont see it as a sign of progress. Its a regressive response, thankfully the hysteria is only manifesting and infecting the left and the right will move on with the momentum already in flow.

I do recall Obama standing in Brussels with the Head of Isis, Mr Isis and saying to the worlds waiting television that he believed Mr Isis was the best Isis he had met. And that american intelligence was only out to get Mr Isis. And it was all the republicans fault and George Bush Jr who was just keeping Anti Isis propaganda going.

He Believed Mr Isis because they had a private meeting and hes a good guy

Great TV a the time i recall.

Quin_Dub · 17-07-2018 3:42pm

Gbear wrote: »

Can you name another example of anything like this in US Presidential history - that they would not just kowtow to a hostile power, but do it explicitly at the expense of their own intelligence services?

RIGOLO wrote: »

Thats easy, the Obama adminstration ignored its own intellegience reports warning of the rise of ISIS and establishment of a salafist taking advantage of the conflict in Syria. If anything the intelligence agencies got it wrong in 2012 as they identified ISIS as an aid for regime change in Syria. So yeah Obama bent over for ISIS and everyone paid the price, remember the convoys of fighters streaming across the deserts and Obama would not let his military take them out..
http://www.globalresearch.ca/defense-intelligence-agency-create-a-salafist-principality-in-syria-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/5451216
So yeah its easy to find examples of everything and anything.

Just cos the left are suddenly woke to geo-politics and dirty tricks , theres actually nothing new to see here, the US intelligence has as long a history of cockups as it has of successes, and similarily the WH adminsitration are free to tow its own line even if its contrary to the Intelligence reports.

no need for the anti-trumpers to roll out the 'whatboutery comments and use of Obama ' ... someone asked for an example of a prior administration, hence the Obama response.
As a student of history these same events have played out dozens of times before, even the level of mass hysteria and tin hat theories on the left is probably not a first. The fact the left is still behaving like that , I dont see it as a sign of progress. Its a regressive response, thankfully the hysteria is only manifesting and infecting the left and the right will move on with the momentum already in flow.

That doesn't answer the question you are responding to at all though..

Your Obama example is an example of a political and foreign policy mistake - A pretty big one to be fair. But countless governments over the years have miscalculated or downplayed a particular political risk and later been shown up for it..

What you were asked about is an example where a US President PUBLICLY sided with a foreign hostile power over their own staff.

For your example to be equivalent , Obama would have had to be sharing a stage somewhere with the leader of ISIS and announced "I don't think ISIS are a threat , they've told me all they want is a quiet life and I believe them".

amandstu · 17-07-2018 3:46pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

amandstu wrote: »

I wonder if Putin might have said something to Trump in private that reinforced Trump's scepticism regarding his intelligence forces (and the FBI)

I can imagine him doing this in a very subtle way.

Yes. For instance, he might have said that The Donald shouldn't piss him off in anyway.

There is such a thing as carrot and stick.

If Putin really does have stuff on Trump that he fears then that is treason in my book whatever about yesterday.

Dohnjoe · 17-07-2018 3:56pm

RIGOLO wrote: »

Thats easy, the Obama adminstration ignored its own intellegience reports warning of the rise of ISIS and establishment of a salafist taking advantage of the conflict in Syria. If anything the intelligence agencies got it wrong in 2012 as they identified ISIS as an aid for regime change in Syria. So yeah Obama bent over for ISIS and everyone paid the price, remember the convoys of fighters streaming across the deserts and Obama would not let his military take them out..
http://www.globalresearch.ca/defense-intelligence-agency-create-a-salafist-principality-in-syria-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/5451216

Globalresearch is not a credible source (it's largely a conspiracy blog site)

The Syrian conflict was very different in 2012. ISIS didn't exist then, only precursors, there was little international appetite for military intervention to stop foreign fighters going to Syria and less sympathy for Assad. That's from a bipartisan perspective, Democrat and Republican at the time

All of this is a deflection from the real issue. A sitting US president is openly siding with a corrupt autocrat over his own security services.

Gbear · 17-07-2018 4:01pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

That doesn't answer the question you are responding to at all though..

Your Obama example is an example of a political and foreign policy mistake - A pretty big one to be fair. But countless governments over the years have miscalculated or downplayed a particular political risk and later been shown up for it..

What you were asked about is an example where a US President PUBLICLY sided with a foreign hostile power over their own staff.

For your example to be equivalent , Obama would have had to be sharing a stage somewhere with the leader of ISIS and announced "I don't think ISIS are a threat , they've told me all they want is a quiet life and I believe them".

To fully realise the analogy Obama's administration would've also had to have been under investigation for its ties to ISIS at the time and their role in undermining the US government at the highest levels, but given the tendency for Trump's base to believe that Obama was some kind of Muslamic Commie Nazi, perhaps RIGOLO had already made that assumption when they were making the point.

In short, no RIGOLO, that is not even remotely similar.

prawnsambo · 17-07-2018 4:11pm

Gbear wrote: »

To fully realise the analogy Obama's administration would've also had to have been under investigation for its ties to ISIS at the time and their role in undermining the US government at the highest levels, but given the tendency for Trump's base to believe that Obama was some kind of Muslamic Commie Nazi, perhaps RIGOLO had already made that assumption when they were making the point.

In short, no RIGOLO, that is not even remotely similar.

But, but he said it was easy.

James Brown · 17-07-2018 4:11pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Trump said he believed Putin. That doesn't mean he did. He'll happily flip flop on this stuff all day long. He says what is convenient at that particular moment in time for him. That could change at any time. This isn't a policy position that we're talking about here. It isn't a decision on a course of action. It's a few words uttered by a man who doesn't understand the importance of those words. And doesn't care. It might reflect what he decides to do, it might not.

Trump is that guy who walks into an interview for a technical job having not prepared in any way and attempts to bluff his way through it despite not having any real knowledge of the subject. Words fall from his mouth, but there's no real thought behind them. He probably barely remembers what he said minutes after he says it.

Whether he believed it or not his comments were the damage. It doesn't matter what is intentions where.
The point that he said those things is the event. That's the damage.
The fact he may be merely going with the flow at the time or it isn't policy matters not. It's not like negotiating a deal and changing your mind. The deal is done. It was done at the press conference. He sided with Putin.
The fact that Trump is no diplomat and changes his mind from one minute to the next is a problem, but this event happened. Caused damage and has passed.

Leroy42 · 17-07-2018 4:43pm

https://twitter.com/newtgingrich/status/1018967261418344450

Rigolo, don't those Left wing whingers ever take a break?

molloyjh · 17-07-2018 4:54pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Whether he believed it or not his comments were the damage. It doesn't matter what is intentions where.
The point that he said those things is the event. That's the damage.
The fact he may be merely going with the flow at the time or it isn't policy matters not. It's not like negotiating a deal and changing your mind. The deal is done. It was done at the press conference. He sided with Putin.
The fact that Trump is no diplomat and changes his mind from one minute to the next is a problem, but this event happened. Caused damage and has passed.

I don't disagree, I'm just pointing out that the idea that Trump made those comments in anything other than a spur of the moment case of verbal diarrhoea could be very flawed. His modus operandi is to speak before he thinks, and then to ensure he doesn't think about what he said ever again. That way, in his own head, he has never said anything wrong. Because when faced with what he said he can just deny it. He won't be engaging his brain then either so it'll be all good as far as he's concerned.

It reminds me of that urban legend of the guy who would go out drinking, go home with someone he thought was stunning and then escape the next morning without looking at her. In his mind every girl he ever went home with was a stunner and it doesn't matter what anyone else says, or what pictures (i.e. evidence) anyone else might have. He's fooled himself into thinking he's always bedded stunners because he's always ensured he's never had to face reality.

Outlaw Pete · 17-07-2018 4:55pm

listermint wrote: »

I do recall Obama standing in Brussels with the Head of Isis, Mr Isis and saying to the worlds waiting television that he believed Mr Isis was the best Isis he had met. And that american intelligence was only out to get Mr Isis. And it was all the republicans fault and George Bush Jr who was just keeping Anti Isis propaganda going.

He Believed Mr Isis because they had a private meeting and hes a good guy

Great TV a the time i recall.

Don't recall that, sure you're not thinking of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPMDGLbmdgo

qwerty ui op · 17-07-2018 4:57pm

For his whole trip abroad, I thought Trump had a nervousness about him that he doesn't usually have. It was only right at the end in Helsinki when we went on the Strzok rant that he acted like his usual self again.

Putin didn't say he didn't have compromising on Trump and he didn't even deal with the "family" part of the question. He'll now be able use this non-denial if needed.

molloyjh · 17-07-2018 5:02pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Don't recall that, sure you're not thinking of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPMDGLbmdgo

Politician in politicking shocker. :eek:

Christy42 · 17-07-2018 5:33pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

listermint wrote: »

I do recall Obama standing in Brussels with the Head of Isis, Mr Isis and saying to the worlds waiting television that he believed Mr Isis was the best Isis he had met. And that american intelligence was only out to get Mr Isis. And it was all the republicans fault and George Bush Jr who was just keeping Anti Isis propaganda going.

He Believed Mr Isis because they had a private meeting and hes a good guy

Great TV a the time i recall.

Don't recall that, sure you're not thinking of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPMDGLbmdgo

How is that anywhere in the same league. Obama is not going against his own nation. Just saying he will have a bit more power to make deals after the election. A bit of a gaf to be caught on tape to be sure but not near Trump's level of taking the word of a foreign president over the work of his own intelligence agencies.

everlast75 · 17-07-2018 5:43pm

https://twitter.com/PeterAlexander/status/1019257691724746757?s=19

Interesting.

Also, the Pres had a meeting with attorneys including Rod this morning...

Leroy42 · 17-07-2018 5:49pm

Not interesting at all. This will be the type we have seen before. Trump will spout some nonsense, not based on anything, and probably in total contradiction of everything he has said and will say in the future.

He will talk about the great job, fantastic, that Coates is doing, trying to tidy things up after the mess that Obama left behind. That the DNC is still sore after losing an election that nobody said they could lose, and that he won the EC by the biggest margin since the last smaller margin.

Fake News, CNN, HC. He will probably let everyone know that Putin thanked Trump for beating HC as otherwise the world would be at war already. That they had great talks, the best and Putin said that the NK summit was the most bestest ever.

And that they also discussed building a new hotel in Helsinki.

Captain Obvious · 17-07-2018 5:56pm

Important to note a lot is happening aside from Trump's treason.

The nation's top voting machine maker has admitted in a letter to a federal lawmaker that the company installed remote-access software on election-management systems it sold over a period of six years, raising questions about the security of those systems and the integrity of elections that were conducted with them.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/mb4ezy/top-voting-machine-vendor-admits-it-installed-remote-access-software-on-systems-sold-to-states

The Trump administration will end a longstanding requirement that certain nonprofit organizations disclose the names of their large donors to the Internal Revenue Service, a move that will allow some political groups to shield their sources of funding from government scrutiny

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/17/us/politics/irs-will-no-longer-force-kochs-and-other-groups-to-disclose-donors.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

It has now emerged that the U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem will cost almost 100 times more than the president said in March. Trump told reporters at the time, “They put an order in front of my desk last week for $1 billion.... We’re actually doing it for about $250,000, so check that out.”

Maryland construction firm Desbuild Limak D&K has now been awarded a $21.2 million contract to design and build “compound security upgrades” at the facility, Al-Monitor has reported. The U.S. government already spent $335,402 upgrading the property—formerly a consulate building—ahead of the embassy's opening ceremony in May.

https://www.newsweek.com/us-jerusalem-embassy-cost-100-times-more-trump-claimed-1027644

MadYaker · 17-07-2018 6:01pm

There's going to be an opening ceremony in may? Of next year? How many more deaths will that cause

MadYaker · 17-07-2018 6:37pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Don't recall that, sure you're not thinking of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPMDGLbmdgo

Is that the best you can come up with? Be honest with yourself, Obama saying he has more flexibility after the election when it'll be his last term is not even in the same galaxy as what Trump did at that press conference. He sided with a hostile superpower over his own intellegence services (a hostile superpower who he previously agreed tried to subvert American elections). He literally said he believes Putin over them. Nothing like this has ever happened before. I agree with you (to a certain extent) about the hysteria from the left in the US but if I was American this would have me very worried. The optics of this alone make it really look like Putin has something on Trump. The only other explanation I can think of for Trumps behaviour is that he is too much of a narcassist to accept that maybe Russia had something to do with him getting elected and it wasn't purely his own greatness.

I'm all for Trump trying to build bridges and lessen the chances of conflict between nuclear powers, but there is a middle ground that he should have occupied here, but he didn't he sided with Putin and there can't be any good reason for that.

jaykay74 · 17-07-2018 6:37pm

MadYaker wrote: »

There's going to be an opening ceremony in may? Of next year? How many more deaths will that cause

No 335k was spent ahead of the opening in May of this year.

The U.S. government already spent $335,402 upgrading the property—formerly a consulate building—ahead of the embassy's opening ceremony in May.

MadYaker · 17-07-2018 6:41pm

My bad, thanks for that.

Is anyone else surprised by Obama's silence on this one? I know he's in Africa at the moment but when Trump sank the Iran deal he took to social media to speak out against it and this is a way, waaaaay bigger incident than that imo.

prawnsambo · 17-07-2018 6:47pm

MadYaker wrote: »

My bad, thanks for that.

Is anyone else surprised by Obama's silence on this one? I know he's in Africa at the moment but when Trump sank the Iran deal he took to social media to speak out against it and this is a way, waaaaay bigger incident than that imo.

He's made a 'coded' attack according to the Guardian.

Outlaw Pete · 17-07-2018 6:50pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Politician in politicking shocker. :eek:

Haha, the irony.

MadYaker · 17-07-2018 6:57pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Haha, the irony.

Do you nonestly think that those 2 examples are similar?

Skylinehead · 17-07-2018 7:01pm

MadYaker wrote: »

Do you nonestly think that those 2 examples are similar?

He doesn't usually answer when you actually question his dodgy examples.

Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

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