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Henry Cavill forced to apologize for #metoo comments

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Comments

  • #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,046 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    Well he's saying he doubts the thousands of women who have come forward with their stories and just tells them to prove it.
    That's exactly my point, instead of doubting women we should be supporting them!

    When your mother told you "Don't believe everything your hear.", was she telling you to not believe women who say they've been sexually assaulted? Did you confront her?

    If that sounds like puerile logic to you, then it's because it's familiar to you. You're using it incessantly.


  • #93
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    The scary thing is what women have gone through and continue to go through. I just don't get what you're disagreeing with me about? Many women have been attacked/assaulted/hassled by men. This is fact and we should be doing something to put an end to this. That's all I've been saying, what can you possibly have against that?

    Ok. I have some time, so I'll bite.

    Women have full equality per the law in this country and society has shifted its perception regarding harassment, sexual assault, and rape to, more than, compensate for those changes. We have sexual harassment laws in the workplace. We have harassment laws regarding social interactions, and we have laws to protect women in pretty much every area of our lives. There are also heaps of services for women both state and privately funded to help women in need.

    Those laws cannot be effective if women do not make use of them. Without women going to the Gardai to make statements, the law cannot be implemented to protect them. It really is that simple. As things stand, we have unofficial claims by women through the metoo campaign, or claims like your own posts about huge amounts of harassment or abuse, but no way to confirm them. Why? Because these women refuse to face reality.

    The sad truth is that many people like yourself are living in the past. We haven't had an environment of ignoring women's claims in 20-30 years. If anything, the current social environment is very favorable to women's claims, and officials are more likely to trust the word of women over men. Even before these changes, there was a tendency to accept women as being victims even when there was no evidence to support it. This can be seen in Domestic violence cases where the male was usually considered the aggressor, even when there was clear evidence that the woman was.

    Now, you can keep repeating that there are huge numbers of rapes or harassment of women... but it will be dismissed as pure drama because the statistics don't support you. There hasn't been a huge upsurge in such crimes against women, compared to previous years. We have a society that is extremely protective of women, and while there is a minority of men, who break the law to hurt women, they're still very much a minority.

    And the law is effectively dealing with that minority. Until the women of the metoo campaign come forward, and have their claims investigated then nothing will change. Making dramatic claims isn't going to help, because they haven't been verified.

    Not going to write more, because it's all in my first few posts to you...


  • #94
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    When your mother told you "Don't believe everything your hear.", was she telling you to not believe women who say they've been sexually assaulted? Did you confront her?

    If that sounds like puerile logic to you, then it's because it's familiar to you. You're using it incessantly.

    Eh? You asked where posters were saying that women shouldn't be believed, I pointed out one on that very page.
    Look, we could go down the road of saying that every single story that the thousands of women have come forward with needs to be brought to court or we can just accept that they are not all liars.
    I find it very weird that the reaction from people here is to object to women talking about their ordeals, instead of objecting to the men who have put them through it.


  • #95
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    Well he's saying he doubts the thousands of women who have come forward with their stories and just tells them to prove it.
    That's exactly my point, instead of doubting women we should be supporting them!

    And they are supported. There are procedures in place under the law to process such statements and have them investigated. But you're looking for more than that. You seem to want men to be arrested, and convicted on hearsay.


  • #96
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,046 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    Eh? You asked where posters were saying that women shouldn't be believed, I pointed out one on that very page.
    Look, we could go down the road of saying that every single story that the thousands of women have come forward with needs to be brought to court or we can just accept that they are not all liars.
    I find it very weird that the reaction from people here is to object to women talking about their ordeals, instead of objecting to the men who have put them through it.

    You just cannot stop lying and extrapolating major injustices from basic statements. How you think you're fooling us with blatant lies is insane. We are not stupid.

    I've zero interest in continuing talking to you. And real feminists have zero interest in having someone like you on your side. You are the insanity that infests every cause.


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  • #97
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Ok. I have some time, so I'll bite.

    Women have full equality per the law in this country and society has shifted its perception regarding harassment, sexual assault, and rape to, more than, compensate for those changes. We have sexual harassment laws in the workplace. We have harassment laws regarding social interactions, and we have laws to protect women in pretty much every area of our lives. There are also heaps of services for women both state and privately funded to help women in need.

    Those laws cannot be effective if women do not make use of them. Without women going to the Gardai to make statements, the law cannot be implemented to protect them. It really is that simple. As things stand, we have unofficial claims by women through the metoo campaign, or claims like your own posts about huge amounts of harassment or abuse, but no way to confirm them. Why? Because these women refuse to face reality.

    The sad truth is that many people like yourself are living in the past. We haven't had an environment of ignoring women's claims in 20-30 years. If anything, the current social environment is very favorable to women's claims, and officials are more likely to trust the word of women over men. Even before these changes, there was a tendency to accept women as being victims even when there was no evidence to support it. This can be seen in Domestic violence cases where the male was usually considered the aggressor, even when there was clear evidence that the woman was.

    Now, you can keep repeating that there are huge numbers of rapes or harassment of women... but it will be dismissed as pure drama because the statistics don't support you. There hasn't been a huge upsurge in such crimes against women, compared to previous years. We have a society that is extremely protective of women, and while there is a minority of men, who break the law to hurt women, they're still very much a minority.

    And the law is effectively dealing with that minority. Until the women of the metoo campaign come forward, and have their claims investigated then nothing will change. Making dramatic claims isn't going to help, because they haven't been verified.

    Not going to write more, because it's all in my first few posts to you...

    Unfortunately the reality is different to what you have posted. Women do report assaults and rapes etc. They have to go through court proceedings, face their attacker and mostly see them either get away with their crime or get very short sentences.
    Also some have to face accusations that they were asking for it or that they are sluts while the rapists get welcomed back into society. I've said all this to you.
    Where did I say an upsurge? I said that a huge amount of women suffer this. That's a fact, if you deny that then you should be dismissed.
    The metoo campaign wasn't just about being raped. It was about other forms of assault also and being harassed by men. Not all of this should go to court but none of it should be happening. Women aren't making this up, it happens all the time.
    We should be all against this, I don't get what your issue is? You never answered my question on why you are against trying to make things safe for women?


  • #98
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    And they are supported. There are procedures in place under the law to process such statements and have them investigated. But you're looking for more than that. You seem to want men to be arrested, and convicted on hearsay.

    Where did I say that?


  • #99
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You just cannot stop lying and extrapolating major injustices from basic statements. How you think you're fooling us with blatant lies is insane. We are not stupid.

    I've zero interest in continuing talking to you. And real feminists have zero interest in having someone like you on your side. You are the insanity that infests every cause.

    I really don't get what the problem is here. It's now insane to say you believe women's stories of being assaulted and you think something should be done about it? That's what I'm saying, how is that insane?


  • #100
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    Where did I say that?

    Seem to... I didn't say that you had openly said it.

    But read over your own posts again. There is a strong trend that women should be believed in spite of not going through official channels, and being investigated. EDIT: Ahh.. forget it. In hindsight, I'm wondering why I'm bothering responding to you again.


  • #101
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Seem to... I didn't say that you had openly said it.

    But read over your own posts again. There is a strong trend that women should be believed in spite of not going through official channels, and being investigated. EDIT: Ahh.. forget it. In hindsight, I'm wondering why I'm bothering responding to you again.

    I'm actually wondering why I'm bothering responding to you! You refuse to answer any questions I've put to you and you have attempted to put words in my mouth.
    I'm saying that instead of doubting the stories that came out in the metoo campaign, we should be doing something to change the culture which allows women be treated in this manner.


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  • #102
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    LOL. Sweet irony.


  • #103
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    Deleted User wrote: »
    LOL. Sweet irony.

    It's people like you who make the anti metoo movement look insane. You keep ignoring points raised and just want women to be called liars. Sweet irony indeed. LOL.


  • #104
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    It's people like you who make the anti metoo movement look insane. You keep ignoring points raised and just want women to be called liars. Sweet irony indeed. LOL.

    haha,... I never once said for women to be called liars. You're the only one to have raised that. In fact, you're the only one to have suggested that women are/be labeled anything negative at all. And the anti-metoo movement? erm.. paranoia and victimhood in one.

    As for ignoring points raised... come on... really? You've ignored ten times as many points that you've raised...


  • #105
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    They have to go through court proceedings, face their attacker and mostly see them either get away with their crime or get very short sentences.

    That's just the nature of crimes that nobody else witnesses. Had a mate who was seriously severely beaten up many years ago by someone he knew but it never went to court as there was no evidence. As for short sentences, some are, some are not. Again, no different to lots of crimes. Last year there was thread on here where many cases of women glassing men in the face and all walking free were listed. You don't have the monopoly on unsatisfactory sentencing when it comes to the crimes you're citing.
    Also some have to face accusations that they were asking for it or that they are sluts..

    Sex when consensual is an interaction between two people often where consent is just conveyed and so some rape cases are bound to center on whether or not the complainant did consent and now merely regrets doing so, forgets doing so (in cases where they have been drunk) or has another motive entirely. If want examples of these, no bother, but that is why courts consider such things. It's not some big patriarchal conspiracy out to shame and undermine female complainants.
    while the rapists get welcomed back into society.

    Well now that's just baloney. I can't think of anything more stigmatizing for a guy than them having been accused of rape. Even when found not guilty there are indelibly marked as inevitably, and unfortunately, there are many who believe there would be no smoke without fire. Accusations alone can destroy families. No idea where you are getting this notion that rapists are welcomed back into society.
    We should be all against this...

    We are, just some of us can see the bullshit surrounding it.


  • #106
    DavidLyons_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭DavidLyons_


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    while the rapists get welcomed back into society.
    Interesting. Can you advise of any specific examples where a rapist has been "welcomed back into society"?


  • #107
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    Deleted User wrote: »
    haha,... I never once said for women to be called liars. You're the only one to have raised that. In fact, you're the only one to have suggested that women are/be labeled anything negative at all. And the anti-metoo movement? erm.. paranoia and victimhood in one.

    As for ignoring points raised... come on... really? You've ignored ten times as many points that you've raised...

    :D Well I never men should be convicted on hearsay. I think you get my point now. The realisation has hit you.
    All I've stated on this thread is support for women and stated that something should be done about the culture in which sickening behaviour towards them is tolerated. You have taken offence at this so I think anti metoo movement is accurate.
    The only person to ignore questions is you.


  • #108
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    That's just the nature of crimes that nobody else witnesses. Had a mate who was seriously severely beaten up many years ago by someone he knew but it never went to court as there was no evidence. As for short sentences, some are, some are not. Again, no different to lots of crimes. Last year there was thread on here where many cases of women glassing men in the face and all walking free were listed. You don't have the monopoly on unsatisfactory sentencing when it comes to the crimes you're citing.



    Sex when consensual is an interaction between two people often where consent is just conveyed and so some rape cases are bound to center on whether or not the complainant did consent and now merely regrets doing so, forgets doing so (in cases where they have been drunk) or has another motive entirely. If want examples of these, no bother, but that is why courts consider such things. It's not some big patriarchal conspiracy out to shame and undermine female complainants.



    Well now that's just baloney. I can't think of anything more stigmatizing for a guy than them having been accused of rape. Even when found not guilty there are indelibly marked as inevitably, and unfortunately, there are many who believe there would be no smoke without fire. Accusations alone can destroy families. No idea where you are getting this notion that rapists are welcomed back into society.



    We are, just some of us can see the bullshit surrounding it.

    You agree with me but still call it bull****? We can all fight together to support women against attacks from males, I don't see what the issue is at all.

    Women get accused of asking for it after they've been raped and get called sluts, that's fact, not baloney.


  • #109
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    Interesting. Can you advise of any specific examples where a rapist has been "welcomed back into society"?

    There are examples of rapists having their hand shaken by all the 'main players' in their local community. Rapists have gone back to life as normal while their victims have had to leave the area.


  • #110
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    :D Well I never men should be convicted on hearsay. I think you get my point now. The realisation has hit you.

    I got your point ages ago... It wasn't difficult. I just don't agree with your views.
    All I've stated on this thread is support for women and stated that something should be done about the culture in which sickening behaviour towards them is tolerated.

    Where is the harassment, sexual abuse or rape of women tolerated?

    In the last 10-20 years, please. Lets stick to modern times.
    You have taken offence at this so I think anti metoo movement is accurate.

    As I said, paranoia, and victimhood. Any objection is seen as being "anti". If you're not 100% with us, then you're against us.
    The only person to ignore questions is you.

    One question, which I answered. How many statements/questions did you ignore? It's only two pages, surely you can read back that far?


  • #111
    DavidLyons_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭DavidLyons_


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    Interesting. Can you advise of any specific examples where a rapist has been "welcomed back into society"?

    There are examples of rapists having their hand shaken by all the 'main players' in their local community. Rapists have gone back to life as normal while their victims have had to leave the area.
    Fascinating. Tell me more. Specific examples please and not just anecdotal speculation.

    Thanks in advance.


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  • #112
    Calhoun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    Fascinating. Tell me more. Specific examples please and not just anecdotal speculation.

    Thanks in advance.

    Well there actually was a case in recent years where this happened, it was disgusting and was condemned at the time.

    However it does not mean that it i the prevailing attitude now or then, it also doesn't mean that the metoo doesn't have its flaws.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-sex-case-that-divided-a-town-and-shocked-a-watching-nation-26593097.html

    For reference.


  • #113
    DavidLyons_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭DavidLyons_


    Calhoun wrote: »
    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    Fascinating. Tell me more. Specific examples please and not just anecdotal speculation.

    Thanks in advance.

    Well there actually was a case in recent years where this happened, it was disgusting and was condemned at the time.

    However it does not mean that it i the prevailing attitude now or then, it also doesn't mean that the metoo doesn't have its flaws.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-sex-case-that-divided-a-town-and-shocked-a-watching-nation-26593097.html

    For reference.
    Thank you. So a single case from 2009, NINE YEARS ago is evidence that "rapists are welcomed back into society". Vaguely remember that at the time society was utterly disgusted by the actions of those few scumbags that shook that animals hand.

    Are there any other, more recent, more relevant examples please, DONTMATTER?


  • #114
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    We can all fight together to support women against attacks from males, I don't see what the issue is at all.

    We can all fight together to support men or women being attacked by any gender was the point.
    Women get accused of asking for it after they've been raped and get called sluts, that's fact, not baloney.

    If they do, it's rare, and anytime I have heard someone cite an example of it, they have just exaggerated someone's remarks.
    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    There are examples of rapists having their hand shaken by all the 'main players' in their local community. Rapists have gone back to life as normal while their victims have had to leave the area.

    Not this crap again. The very reason that behaviour made the damn headlines was BECAUSE of how abhorrent people found it. You're citing it as evidence of the norm when it's the opposite. Beyond ridiculous.


  • #115
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I got your point ages ago... It wasn't difficult. I just don't agree with your views.



    Where is the harassment, sexual abuse or rape of women tolerated?

    In the last 10-20 years, please. Lets stick to modern times.



    As I said, paranoia, and victimhood. Any objection is seen as being "anti". If you're not 100% with us, then you're against us.



    One question, which I answered. How many statements/questions did you ignore? It's only two pages, surely you can read back that far?

    But you didn't answer, why do you disagree? All I'm saying is that the treatment of women as we seen in the metoo campaign is disgusting and we should do something about it, how can you disagree with that?

    If it's not tolerated then how come it's such a regular occurance?

    As I've asked, what are you objecting to exactly?

    I've ignored nothing.


  • #116
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    Fascinating. Tell me more. Specific examples please and not just anecdotal speculation.

    Thanks in advance.

    You want names and addresses? You must be living in some bubble if you're not aware of this.


  • #117
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    Thank you. So a single case from 2009, NINE YEARS ago is evidence that "rapists are welcomed back into society". Vaguely remember that at the time society was utterly disgusted by the actions of those few scumbags that shook that animals hand.

    Are there any other, more recent, more relevant examples please, DONTMATTER?

    It needs to be in the newspapers for you to believe it? This is like the others doubting women's stories, you have to go to court to be believed, until you do that you're a liar.


  • #118
    Calhoun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    It needs to be in the newspapers for you to believe it? This is like the others doubting women's stories, you have to go to court to be believed, until you do that you're a liar.

    Of course you do, are you male or female? If your going to accuse somebody of something as serious as rape it should have to go to court.

    Thats how we operate in a society, we do not have trial by media or twitter.

    How would you feel if you could be accused of something super serious and it be believed because the person accusing you is of a certain sex.


  • #119
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    We can all fight together to support men or women being attacked by any gender was the point.



    If they do, it's rare, and anytime I have heard someone cite an example of it, they have just exaggerated someone's remarks.



    Not this crap again. The very reason that behaviour made the damn headlines was BECAUSE of how abhorrent people found it. You're citing it as evidence of the norm when it's the opposite. Beyond ridiculous.

    Yes, so what's the problem? The other fella said that women should go to court, it's all fair but you agreed with me, the sentences rapists receive and the ordeal women have to go through doesn't make it appealing.

    It's actually not rare at all. As we see from this thread, women's stories are doubted off the bat, they don't even know the women.

    That was just a headline case, it mightn't reach the news but rapists returning to their communities while their victims are forced out is not that uncommon.


  • #120
    DONTMATTER
    Site Banned Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭DONTMATTER


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Of course you do, are you male or female? If your going to accuse somebody of something as serious as rape it should have to go to court.

    Thats how we operate in a society, we do not have trial by media or twitter.

    The metoo movement isn't all about rape. There's thousands of stories about abuse and harassment. Why shouldn't we believe them?


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  • #121
    Calhoun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    DONTMATTER wrote: »
    The metoo movement isn't all about rape. There's thousands of stories about abuse and harassment. Why shouldn't we believe them?

    Why should we believe them without questioning their motives. I edited my last post after you responded.

    However my point was what if you were accused of something as serious as rape, and by default your accuser was believed because of their sex. What would you do if you were innocent? Your life would for the most part be ruined in Ireland.


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