Henry Cavill forced to apologize for #metoo comments

RayCun · 14-07-2018 07:01AM

"In fact, have a look at some of the false rape claims within this year... yup, proven to be false. But consider the lack of evidence involved, and yet, the claims still made it as far as a judge."

As you probably know, the claims were *not* proven to be false. There was insufficient evidence to convict, because a criminal conviction requires proof beyond reasonable doubt. That is an extremely high bar, when a key question in a case is about consent, and that consent or refusal is unlikely by it's nature to have independent witnesses.

But yeah, the problem is women making **** up...

RobbingBandit · 14-07-2018 07:22AM

Not very super of him maybe the pornstar moustache went to his brain.

FTA69 · 14-07-2018 07:35AM

No such thing as nuance anymore. Any slight deviation from an accepted orthodoxy and it's online pileons and mass-signed letters calling for your head. Doesn't matter if your intentions were good, you were a bit hamfisted or unfortunate or if you had been taken up wrong - you're literally the worst person who ever lived and you need to be flagellated for transgressing.

The tone used is unreal at times, "you are LITERALLY f*cking disgusting!" etc, it can be incredibly disconcerting when large groups of people are screeching abuse at you online suggesting you're a borderline rapist and woman basher for some relatively innocuous comment or opinion. I've seen it happen.

This rubbish originated in US campus politics and has unfortunately spread over here and dominated some sections of the left to the point it jeopardises that brand of politics as a whole. And it has no bearing on reality. If you came to my union branch meeting shouting about "literal trash" and "safer spaces" the people there would think you need to be committed and would probably put you out the door.

RayCun · 14-07-2018 07:44AM

Yeah, the problem with Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby was that they deviated slightly from impossibly strict standards. The jails are full of people wrongly convicted of rape. There are no men in positions of power any more, because they have been overthrown by hordes of women screaming that they looked at someone funny.

RayCun · 14-07-2018 07:49AM

" it has no bearing on reality"

You find yourself getting worked up about things that you think are happening on American campuses, something you have no direct experience of. You don't see people looking for safe spaces at your union meetings, but you are sure it is happening _somewhere_, and the idea appals you.

FTA69 · 14-07-2018 07:59AM

RayCun wrote: »

" it has no bearing on reality"

You find yourself getting worked up about things that you think are happening on American campuses, something you have no direct experience of. You don't see people looking for safe spaces at your union meetings, but you are sure it is happening _somewhere_, and the idea appals you.

See above for an example, rowing about points I never even made.

I said the type of shrill denunciations and call-out culture stuff originated in US campus politics and then spread to sections of the left. I don't give a f*ck about US colleges believe me. I do give a f*ck when an hour of a political meeting is spent debating whether we should book an event that doesn't have gender neutral jacks or when a good event later gets denounced all over social media for "toxic masculinity" because someone said "c*nt" at some stage. Or when a community facing left wing boxing club gets new members in who then start demanding Safer Spaces policies and moaning about everything and anything.

And speaking of unions, a friend of mine was recently bullied off her own picket line by protestors who accused her of hating trans people for having the temerity to attend a meeting on the Gender recognition Act.

So unfortunately, this sort of utter waffle is actually having a detrimental effect on actual organising and discredits left wing politics in general. I see this sh*t in real life on a regular basis so I will criticise it from a position of experience thanks very much.

RayCun · 14-07-2018 08:05AM

You know what else has an effect on left wing organizing? When people want to be active, but their concerns are dismissed as a distraction from real politics. Sexism and racism have a history of being put on the long finger until after the revolution.

DONTMATTER · 14-07-2018 08:06AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And your posting attitude is exactly the reason that metoo gets such criticism.

If you don't understand why I'm saying that, read back over my posts and yours, and consider what actual progress was made between us. Instead of progressing towards a useful conversation, I'm giving up and no longer responding to you. Metoo is going to receive the same reaction. There's simply no space for a rational and fair discussion.

Rational and fair discussion? What are you on about? All I've said is that the stories from women about all the attacks and abuse is really sickening and disturbing. And that we should be fighting against it. What is wrong with that? Do you not agree with that?

I think maybe you should read back over the posts and stop doubting women's stories.

professore · 14-07-2018 08:11AM

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Rational and fair discussion? What are you on about? All I've said is that the stories from women about all the attacks and abuse is really sickening and disturbing. And that we should be fighting against it. What is wrong with that? Do you not agree with that?

Fighting how? A rape trial is still just as difficult and harrowing to go through. All I see is women outdoing each other in the media bashing men. No actual concrete change other than its now OK to say all men are rapists.

YFlyer · 14-07-2018 08:17AM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I constantly joke with a mate of mine that if I was to ever somehow manage to sleep with someone again, I'll have to record them giving me permission to have sex with them. Scary thing is, it's a likely requirement these days.

Ok, I may be over-exaggerating a little... Just a little though.

The recording will get you in sh.it.

DONTMATTER · 14-07-2018 08:21AM

Where did I say you can?

What I'm saying is that the thousands upon thousands of stories are not all made up. You can't just say 'prove it' and not take any of it on board.
This metoo movement gave women an opportunity to speak about what they go through on a regular occurrence. From rapes to assaults to being hassled by groups of men.
I find it really sad and disturbing that so many women have to go through this. It shows that it's not just some oddball freaks but many men engage in rapey behavior when they have an opportunity.
The metoo movement has exposed this and instead of fighting against it, we should be fighting for change and not have women continue to have to put up with this.

FTA69 · 14-07-2018 08:22AM

RayCun wrote: »

You know what else has an effect on left wing organizing? When people want to be active, but their concerns are dismissed as a distraction from real politics. Sexism and racism have a history of being put on the long finger until after the revolution.

Absolutely true. However confronting sexism etc doesn't then mean we have to indulge every expression of individualised middle class identity b*llocks either, especially when that utterly paralyses a given collective's ability to work toma common goal and appeal to ordinary people.

The only way to fight sexism and racism is via a working class mass movement aimed at changing the structure of the society in which we live. And that won't come about via jumping up and down over a Tube-map complex of ever-increasing identities and oppressions. Call that type of stuff whatever you want, but it sure as f*ck isn't socialist organising anyway.

DONTMATTER · 14-07-2018 08:30AM

professore wrote: »

Fighting how? A rape trial is still just as difficult and harrowing to go through. All I see is women outdoing each other in the media bashing men. No actual concrete change other than its now OK to say all men are rapists.

I don't really follow many media stuff. Who has said that all men are rapists? Maybe they said most rapists are men? This is true.
Obviously nothing can be done when a rape has been committed but we should be fighting to stop other things.
Such as if we see men acting weird and hassling women on nights out, pestering them on the streets, making rape jokes, all these kind of things.
We should be fighting to make things safe for women. There's nothing wrong with that. This is not men bashing. It's rapist bashing.

professore · 14-07-2018 08:41AM

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Rational and fair discussion? What are you on about? All I've said is that the stories from women about all the attacks and abuse is really sickening and disturbing. And that we should be fighting against it. What is wrong with that? Do you not agree with that?

I think maybe you should read back over the posts and stop doubting women's stories.

I will doubt anyone's stories. People lie all the time for all sorts of reasons. That's why we have courts.

14-07-2018 08:43AM

DONTMATTER, you're a broken record at this stage repeating the same stuff for pages and 100% ignoring everything that's being said to you so that you get past this glitch and actually engage in conversation.

Painful to read. Really just a big pile of vomit of emotions and no logic or reason.

The Bishop Basher · 14-07-2018 08:57AM

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I think maybe you should read back over the posts and stop doubting women's stories.

I stay away from FB, Twitter and Instagram to avoid this kind of crazy but it seems to be finding it’s way onto boards more frequently

Please help me understand why we should automatically believe anonymous strangers on the internet ?

Especially when so many of them are clearly nut jobs..

DONTMATTER · 14-07-2018 08:58AM

professore wrote: »

I will doubt anyone's stories. People lie all the time for all sorts of reasons. That's why we have courts.

So the thousands upon thousands of women are all to be doubted? It's all just a big conspiracy?

DONTMATTER · 14-07-2018 09:01AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

DONTMATTER, you're a broken record at this stage repeating the same stuff for pages and 100% ignoring everything that's being said to you so that you get past this glitch and actually engage in conversation.

Painful to read. Really just a big pile of vomit of emotions and no logic or reason.

I've made 8 posts on this thread. If people keep repeating that women shouldn't be believed then why can't I repeat that they should?

14-07-2018 09:01AM

RayCun wrote: »

You know what else has an effect on left wing organizing? When people want to be active, but their concerns are dismissed as a distraction from real politics. Sexism and racism have a history of being put on the long finger until after the revolution.

Yup, I agree, they do have a history of being treated such... but not anymore(although that history is going back well before two decades now). I really don't get this ignoring of the changes in modern society. The western world has moved on away from the past. Both sexism and racism (more sexism, mind) have the attention of the public, and the media. Virtually every week we can see some new equality initiative (for women), some article about discrimination, etc. Not so much about racism, since it's not really such an issue in Ireland.

And yet, in spite of all the declarations for equality with criticisms about male dominated work spaces (no reference to female ones), gender quotas, better legal framework, etc........ And In spite of all of this, sexism is apparently being put on the long finger, being ignored, etc. It's pretty obvious when it comes to womens rights or issues, nothing is ever enough.

14-07-2018 09:04AM

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I've made 8 posts on this thread. If people keep repeating that women shouldn't be believed then why can't I repeat that they should?

Quote those posts that say women shouldn't be believed.

14-07-2018 09:06AM

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I've made 8 posts on this thread. If people keep repeating that women shouldn't be believed then why can't I repeat that they should?

DONTMATTER · 14-07-2018 09:07AM

Rennaws wrote: »

I stay away from FB, Twitter and Instagram to avoid this kind of crazy but it seems to be finding it’s way onto boards more frequently

Please help me understand why we should automatically believe anonymous strangers on the internet ?

Especially when so many of them are clearly nut jobs..

Maybe it's easier for you to believe they're all nut jobs instead of facing reality.
Women shared so many stories of the abuse they have received, not just online. Have you never spoken to your mam, your sister, your female friends about this stuff?
Every woman I have spoken to about this have instances where they were assaulted, felt up against their wishes, some have been raped.
You mightn't want to believe strangers but surely you don't think those close to you are all making it up?

DONTMATTER · 14-07-2018 09:09AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Quote those posts that say women shouldn't be believed.

There's one just up the page even!!!!

DONTMATTER · 14-07-2018 09:12AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Alright, you can pretend you don't hear the women's stories and pretend they're all liars all you want but that doesn't mean normal, decent people shouldn't be fighting against it.

14-07-2018 09:15AM

DONTMATTER wrote: »

There's one just up the page even!!!!

Where?

14-07-2018 09:15AM

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Alright, you can pretend you don't hear the women's stories and pretend they're all liars all you want but that doesn't mean normal, decent people shouldn't be fighting against it.

You really are incapable of reading/understanding what other posters have written, without twisting it to suit yourself.... Amazing really. Scary, but amazing.

DONTMATTER · 14-07-2018 09:19AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Where?

"I will doubt anyone's stories. People lie all the time for all sorts of reasons. That's why we have courts."

DONTMATTER · 14-07-2018 09:23AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You really are incapable of reading/understanding what other posters have written, without twisting it to suit yourself.... Amazing really. Scary, but amazing.

The scary thing is what women have gone through and continue to go through. I just don't get what you're disagreeing with me about? Many women have been attacked/assaulted/hassled by men. This is fact and we should be doing something to put an end to this. That's all I've been saying, what can you possibly have against that?

14-07-2018 09:24AM

DONTMATTER wrote: »

"I will doubt anyone's stories. People lie all the time for all sorts of reasons. That's why we have courts."

And that got described by you as "If people keep repeating that women shouldn't be believed then why can't I repeat that they should?"..

Do you really stand by that? Is that poster saying women shouldn't be believed?

DONTMATTER · 14-07-2018 09:27AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And that got described by you as "If people keep repeating that women shouldn't be believed then why can't I repeat that they should?"..

Do you really stand by that? Is that poster saying women shouldn't be believed?

Well he's saying he doubts the thousands of women who have come forward with their stories and just tells them to prove it.
That's exactly my point, instead of doubting women we should be supporting them!

Henry Cavill forced to apologize for #metoo comments

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