Rewiring House - Options for Future Proofing Switches and Lighting Automation

The lighting system you've named are well recognised.

However for a domestic situation if you stick to the recognised Philips lamps GU10 , their strips etc, you can achieve great things things and still use generic fittings .

There is no extra cabling required, maybe neutrals to the switches

So you could be up and running with 200 euro and add on as you go.

Plus Philips are very good when it comes to apps and updates etc.

Victorian House wrote: »

All,

Going to be rewiring the house from scratch in the coming year and was looking through this forum for advice on future proofing for some home automation. It's likely I won't have the budget for it up front but want to make sure I cover the requirements during the wiring process, e.g. adding neutral to light sockets.

Ideally, I would like 3rd party light fittings and my preference is to operate from a switch (rather than use a phone to operate). For example, I love this iGuzzini fitting for kitchens areas. I would like this to be initially programmed to work with a standard light switch but eventually be transferred to a home automation system in the future. My preference is for a scene-set automation, where one button would switch on combinations of these 3rd party light fittings, e.g. ceiling lights and undercounter lights.

I have seen the Loxone system and Lutron system which both look promising but expensive.

Does anyone know what system would be best for this or am I chasing an unachievable dream? Systems like Hue, etc. rely on using their bulbs in a standard fitting which is too restrictive as I would prefer a switched excellent light fitting over an automated good fitting.

Also, if there is a home automation system, do the lights work if/when the main hub goes down? My worry is that when I'm around I can fix a system but if I was away I wouldn't want it to be a major job to get back up and running again. Stoner's thread is absolutely frightening to read!

If you are rewiring, i would cater for a wired smart lighting system, that would entail cat 5/6 cable to the wall switches. You could cater for this initial my at the wiring stage and add it later.

A wiring topology for this, is very similar for lots of wired systems, including the ones you mention such as loxone, eib,cbus etc.

A velbus system (which is what I have), with the wiring in place, will cost you approx 45 euro o'er circuit above normal light switch installation.

Wiring cat cable to the light switch allows you to add lots of options for light switch control etc, for example my light switches are controlling both my velbus system, and a few hue lamps, and they look and feel no different to a standard light switch.

You also have tje option of putting in some lovely programmable light switches which can run lots of different scenes etc.

Velbus does not rely in a smart hub to maintain operation, so if your hub goes down, you still have normal access to your lights with no impact, but actually most of the smart functions can still keep working.

How handy are you for installing this sort if stuff yourself ?


Other things to consider with rewiring is wired ethernet, wired coax for TV, muktiroom audio (now quite simple and very affordable with the likes if sonos, and google smart speakers)

Victorian House wrote: »

This actually sounds ideal for my scenario. I looked at the velbus website and they note that the system can be expanded in a modular basis. Removing the need for a smart hub to keep everything running would be great as well.

I would be handy enough to follow a manual and get the programming work but wouldn't really try my hand at the wiring. With the way regulations are going these days, there is a lot of responsibility placed on being competent in any area that you are working.

I came across a few posts of yours on the Velbus forum, Wexfordman, and it seems there is a decent amount of work connecting the Velbus to other home automation devices, e.g. Nest. Am I right in thinking that Velbus isn't being integrated to the same level of other brands?

I have my velbus controlled using a compatible alarm system, so its fully integrated.

They are developing a hub for integration into the likes if Alexa anfld google home.etc also. In the meantime, I've been playing around.with openhab on a raspberry pi, and it is through this that I can pull in nest, hue, velbus etc at the moment. Thats how I have setup my standard retraxtive wall switches to control both velbus and hue.

The wall switch is connected to a velbus input, and from that I can get ot to activate any velbus device or any hue device/lamp etc, so I have multifunctional.wall.switches controlling different device types.

Victorian House wrote: »

The openHABian set-up looks quite good. I wouldn't be too intimidated to try my hand at something like that alright in the future.

Yeah, its pretty cool, dont know why I shyed away from it till now, loads of cool stuff and you can integrate pretty much anything together through it, so no matter what system you go for in the end, openhab will find a way to make them work better I reckon.

Velbus are due to release an official hub soon, which will interface to the likes of echoe, GA etc, which to my mind was the one stumbling block with the system over the last 2 years. I got around this however, as my alarm system works with GA, and velbus, but I am looking forward to seeing what a more direct interface will look like.


Velbus are releasing a hub of their own soon, which will have an official interface to the likes of alexa home etc, so will be interesting to see this, but openhab actually will give pretty much everything you need to control the system. I think, the idea for the new hub/interface is to provide something more user friendly, and with official support so that it can integrate officially to the likes of home/alexa siri etc.

On the wiring front, if you are considering a wired system, either from day one, or adding to later yourself, you could wire it in a fashion that allows a wired system to be added later.

Anyway, some photos/examples, all of whcih are wall switches with cat5 cable only behind them.

Wall switch with cat5 wired, controlling velbus relays (in this example, 2 sets of kitchen lights, one dimmable).

These are a fairly standard off the shelf wall switch, brushed steel, so while the control smart lighting system, they look and feel like normal switches.

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This one is in the living room, the switch on the right controls the main living room light, the one on the left, controls a set of hue lamps.



This one below, until two weeks ago was similar to the above, but I replaced it for a velbus touch panel switch. This has a programmable lcd display, 4 touch buttons, but 8 pages of menus, so you can have up to 32 differrent button functions. At the moment, I have buttons setup to do a couple of different things for example

Button 1 Kitchen lights
Button 2 Outside front lights
Button 3 outside rear lights
Button 4 Kitchen Dimmer
Button 5 (page scroll)Sets the alarm to away mode.

I am aiming to add a few more scenes to it, add some more outdoor lighitng for it, control shed lights etc.

It also reads and displays current temp, so can be used as part of heating control system.





The beauty of the cat5 solution, is that I can easily reconfigure/program any input in the house, any wall switch button to control pretty much any device I want, any group of devices, any scenes etc. Hell, I could even get it to send me an email if I wanted it to (not that I would), thats how flexible the system is.

Victorian House wrote: »

That set-up looks good, Wexfordman. I like the gloss switches and they probably stand the test of time a bit better than one with a lot of information.

I've summarised my understanding of the systems here:


If I've got something wrong, maybe somebody would let me know.

Hi Victorian, yep that looks about right, and if you consider it, the wiring topology is pretty much the same for loxone, knx, velbus etc.

The velbus modules bow come in two distinct module types, a relay/switch module and an unlit module. The switch modules typically come with 4 relays to control 4 circuits. Then you have input modules, for example a din rail module which has 7 inputs. So your switches (or pirs or door sensors etc) wire to the input modules which are programmable to switch or activate anything.The inputs can be commined up as well, that's how you achieve two way or three way switching also, which is very simple.


You could expand out on that a bit to get it clear in your head, how you could then integrate hue into the cat cable wired switches., so that would just need the addition of a RPI with openhabian in it, which talks to velbus and your hue hub.

bk wrote: »

wexfordman2, that is very cool, what alarm system you using? Is it Cytech?

Yeah, it's cytech, but i be had that for nearly 20years. Its not critical for any of the uses I described in my earlier post except for arming and disarming, but lots if ways if achieving that with a standard alarm.

Where cytexh excells is being able to integrate sensor logic with your automation, ie, motion sensors work from both a security and automation perspective, so you can have rules not just based in sensor state, but also alarm state. So a pir will behave differently based in sunset/sunrise and dependent in if the alarm is set to night, day or away mode.

bk wrote: »

Yes, I'd be quiet uncomfortable with just this and I don't think I could recommend it.

What if you decide to sell your home? Wouldn't you want to take your expensive kit with you? And the new owners might just want simple switches and might not want to buy expensive fancy lighting system and all the geekiness involved with it.

Or what if your gear breaks down in 20 years and you find these companies have gone out of business or gone expensive commercial only. You may end up stuck and needing to spend a lot to get someone in to re-wire switches.

I'd say if you want cat5, cool, but I'd still run three wire to switches and really that shouldn't be much extra effort for an electrician, it is just follow the mainland Europe approach to lighting circuits



It is very cool how much versatility you are getting out of such an old system, you are certainly getting your moneys worth!!

Yep, the alarm system is old, but still receives constant updates and new features, and is steady as a rock. The fact that it is still sold today, in the same form, and still being developed with new interfaces etc speaks volumes.

With regards resale, the argument for is if course that a professional level system can add value to your house, of course it may well detract some buyers, but the important thing is that the system can and should operate exactly like a standard light switch, there should be no difference in his it operates, and it should be capable of running in its own without the smarts.

I would also recommend going for systems and technologies which are about for a long time, the likes of eib, knx etc are not going anywhere, these are large widely used systems deployed in large commercial buildings, stadiums, event centres and if course domestic. Velbus is owned and made by velleman, is also used across a range of commercial and domestic installations, also not going anywhere. I did my research on this before taking the plunge (part of the reason I chose not to go for loxone at the time).

The technology behind these things as well, is not complex, there is nothing new or fancy in these, there are no wireless systems, its simply a comms bus and relays, technologies that are decades old, and reliable.

As I said to Victorian house also, the additional backup is that the wiring topology for these systems is pretty much identical, so you can if need be replace one system with another using the same wiring topology, so an extra safety net (an unnecessary one to be honest).

Smart lighting systems are not going to dissapear, they are going to grow and the market is expanding not shrinking. It won't be long now until smart lighting systems are standard, the wiring systems we have now are legacy, havnt changed in decades pretty much, and need to move on.

The wireless light bulb systems such as hue will only help accelerate the adoption of smart lighting systems, as people become more familiar with the concept, and adopt the principle of it, home automation will become more mainstream, and that will expand the market for all systems.

Victorian House wrote: »

Thank's for the clarification - I'm finally getting to grips with the whole set-up.

For the future proofing, I would have to wire 220v, neutral and cat5 to each switch and then extend the live and neutral to each individual lights. Initially, the Cat5 would be unused. If I wanted a velbus system, I would just bypass the 220v and neutral at the switch and connect any switches to the Cat5. If something like z-wave took over in the next ten years, I could then switch back to the live-neutral set-up with a fibaro dimmer module.

I like the idea of using Hue with standard plug sockets as well. Wiring a 5A circuit into the house would require a level of planning that I don't know is possible at the moment!

Absolutely, and using something like click minigrid light switches, actually means that you could implement hue switching and standard 220v switching immediately as well.

So, let's say you have a 2 gang wall switch. You can have the first gang working like a normal 220v on/off switch with the 220v wired to it, and the second gang wired to a cat5 pair using a momentary switch controlling a hue bulb.

Victorian House wrote:

I like the idea of using Hue with standard plug sockets as well. Wiring a 5A circuit into the house would require a level of planning that I don't know is possible at the moment!

This is not possible with hue.

TBH , silly as it might sound I've two lamps plugged into lightwaverf wall sockets, they have Philips lamps in them.

So on off control from lightwaverf with Philips dimming and colour change

I've a lightwave scene in the living room

One button turns on two floor lamps (with Philips lamps) and the amp and the TV.

This is a handy all off.

The ceiling lights Philips colour GU10
So if I want to match ceiling and lamp colours I can.

TBH the floor lamp/TV/ Amp scene with all on and all off is used every day, rarely use different colours.

Also

If you want a 10 amp cct for 5A sockets you can get fit a 3KW single of three channel relay on your DB (lightwaverf). This would give you some level of control at each CCT with regular lamps (non dimming)

Many don't like lightwaverf, but I've 8 rads, wall stat boiler switches, external lighting , immersion, electric gate, various sockets all on one system and it's been very robust for me.

Have them for years.

I'd change them if they didn't work.

I don't lie about kit just because I have it.

For example lightwaverf light switches didn't work for me, have them in a bag in the Attic.
I don't like voice control for lights either, it's too intrusive imo.

Victorian House wrote: »

Just to follow up on my research in the same thread, I've found two diagrams which I found very helpful to understanding the Velbus set-up.

Image 1 - Home installation which shows the required modules:


Image 2 - Shows how the bus and 230V wiring would be connected:


I'm not fully clear on how to daisy-chain a Cat5 cable but I presume there is some coupler that splits at each switch.

The glass panels are lovely, I have one, might over time get a few more, but to do a whole house in them would up the cost a good bit. A mixture of the glass panels and standard monetary wall switches does a nice job as well.

For the modules mounted in the fuse board, there are connecting rails you can get to daisy chain them. For remote modules ( the glass panel switches for example), you could use a type of patch panel. I used a krone block, where I wired all my cat 5 wall switches back to, and all my input modules to as well, and then was able to patch between them. This means I could change a wall switch from a momentary type switch, which just uses the cat 5 pairs as inputs, to a glass panel switch which uses the cat 5 as a bus, by just changing the jumpers on the krone block

In fact, I would.most definately not daisy chain them tbh, as then they can only be used as bus, not as inputs


Will post up a link, might explain it better. Again, I think this works well for any wired system, it does not have yo be velbus

Ok,

Dropbox link is here

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yx6b0yy6jeku5bq/Comfort_Velbus_Overview.pdf?dl=0

jimmy_t wrote: »

Hi Wexfordman, I assume you installed the velbus/cytech system as a DIY project, that is most likely beyond my expertise, is there anyone professionals dealing in this in Ireland or where were you buying your components?

Yep, it was a diy project, I did it myself in conjunction with an electrician, ie, I got the electrian to install and wire for the 220v side, and did the comma, bus and programming myself.

There are a couple of UK suppliers of the velbus hardware, I think I got mine way back from ESR.co.uk