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Shannon Water Pipeline - Parteen to Dublin

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13

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    #62
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Article on the water supply situation in Dublin in the Times (paywall alert)

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/east-coast-water-supply-on-knife-edge-between-supply-and-demand-1.3527099


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    #63
    jacksie66
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,988 ✭✭✭jacksie66


    This post has been deleted.


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    #64
    db
    Registered Users Posts: 1,078 ✭✭✭db


    jacksie66 wrote: »
    It's going to be interesting if there's a bit of a drought when this pipeline goes ahead. I'm from very close to the Parteen Weir. During an extended period without rain the water level in the river is pretty low. Even behind the weir in Parteen Basin where this pipe is going to be you can make out the chimney of a house that was there before the Shannon scheme.
    The water for the pipeline is to be compensated for by a reduction in the water allocated to the canal so there should be no difference in the level of the Parteen basin or the river through Castleconnell.


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    #65
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    They should drop the power station and dam while they're at it :




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    #66
    May Contain Small Parts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭May Contain Small Parts


    jacksie66 wrote: »
    It's going to be interesting if there's a bit of a drought when this pipeline goes ahead. I'm from very close to the Parteen Weir. During an extended period without rain the water level in the river is pretty low. Even behind the weir in Parteen Basin where this pipe is going to be you can make out the chimney of a house that was there before the Shannon scheme.

    It's not a natural occurrence. It's a damn controlled river and the ESB are legally obliged to have a certain minimum release at all times. They will still be bound to this in the future.

    In general though, the actual amount they're talking about abstracting is so small that it probably won't have a noticeable effect.


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    #67
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    May Contain Small Parts wrote: »
    It's not a natural occurrence. It's a damn controlled river and the ESB are legally obliged to have a certain minimum release at all times. They will still be bound to this in the future.

    In general though, the actual amount they're talking about abstracting is so small that it probably won't have a noticeable effect.

    AFAIK the pipe is being over engineered so that in future if they want to double or quadruple extraction rates all they have to do is increase the size of the filtration/treatment area and away it goes.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #68
    May Contain Small Parts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭May Contain Small Parts


    blue5000 wrote: »
    AFAIK the pipe is being over engineered so that in future if they want to double or quadruple extraction rates all they have to do is increase the size of the filtration/treatment area and away it goes.

    Huh, decided to read up on this for the first time in a while. From what I remember, a few years ago they were looking for a license to abstract up to 100 megalitres. The recent news all says something like "up to 330 megalitres by 2050*" - which I suppose would tie in with what you're saying?

    Anyway. 330 megalitres/day is about 3.8 cumecs (m^3/s), the shannon averages about a flow-rate of 98 cumecs. So...at most we're talking about 4%?

    (*that "by 2050" bit tended to get buried in the articles for some reason...)


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    #69
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    If the average is 98 m3/sec, any idea what the lowest flow rate is in a dry summer?

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #70
    May Contain Small Parts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭May Contain Small Parts


    blue5000 wrote: »
    If the average is 98 m3/sec, any idea what the lowest flow rate is in a dry summer?

    about 21.


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    #71
    medoc
    Registered Users Posts: 966 ✭✭✭medoc


    I thought one of the options was for a massive reservoir near Garyhinch in Offaly. That would allow maximum extraction in winter months and for reduced or minimal extraction rates during dry spells.


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    #72
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Alun wrote: »
    Desalination is a whole different process to purification, and much more costly.
    It takes energy to remove salt. So higher running costs but lower capital costs.

    IMHO it could be an interesting way to use surplus power when it's available.


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    #73
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,128 ✭✭✭plodder


    medoc wrote: »
    I thought one of the options was for a massive reservoir near Garyhinch in Offaly. That would allow maximum extraction in winter months and for reduced or minimal extraction rates during dry spells.
    I wonder if that option is likely to be revisited given the present conditions. Presumably it wouldn't be if the present drought is not likely to be repeated for another 20-30 years, but can we be sure that is the case?

    Would be interesting to know what the flow rate in the Shannon is at the moment. I imagine it must be well below anything predicted.

    See attached link: not much flow (11 m3/sec). Surprised it's even that much to be honest.

    ESB report worth keeping an eye on, to see how low it goes in weeks to come:

    http://www.esbhydro.ie/Shannon/08-Total-Parteen-Weir-Flow.pdf


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    #74
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    I wonder what is the evaporation rate off the 3 lakes is when the air temp hits 30 C?

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #75
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    medoc wrote: »
    I thought one of the options was for a massive reservoir near Garyhinch in Offaly. That would allow maximum extraction in winter months and for reduced or minimal extraction rates during dry spells.
    Why would you bother when you could just pipe it from further downstream?

    There is a HUGE risk of delays to planning approval from putting a reservoir into your plans.


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    #76
    May Contain Small Parts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭May Contain Small Parts


    Bray Head wrote: »
    Why would you bother when you could just pipe it from further downstream?

    There is a HUGE risk of delays to planning approval from putting a reservoir into your plans.

    The pipeline is worth it in its own right, but really both are needed to ensure quality supply.

    ...that and lots of other things


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    May Contain Small Parts wrote: »
    The pipeline is worth it in its own right, but really both are needed to ensure quality supply.

    ...that and lots of other things

    Like a properly funded utility provider that can bill for the service it provides like almost everywhere else in the world and use that income to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of the water network to ensure stability of supply for generations to come

    But that would be daft cos it rains loads in Ireland so we don't need to worry


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    #78
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    RTE radio 1 Drivetime is doing a series of interviews of locals along the pipeline route this week.

    It began down in Limerick today.


    Some was local politics, "them above in Dublin, we will fight them all the way for OUR water" type stuff, but it was fairly interesting.

    I think the reporter moves up the country a bit tomorrow evening.


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    #79
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    RTE radio 1 Drivetime is doing a series of interviews of locals along the pipeline route this week.

    It began down in Limerick today.


    Some was local politics, "them above in Dublin, we will fight them all the way for OUR water" type stuff, but it was fairly interesting.

    I think the reporter moves up the country a bit tomorrow evening.

    For the past 80 years, they have been trying to drain the Shannon. This is a great opportunity to get rid of some of it. It was not long ago, when the Shannon flooded a huge area of farmland causing huge costs to homes, crops and livestock.

    They wanted Government bail out (literally) and financial assistance. Now they want to keep the water.

    You cannot please some folks.


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    #80
    May Contain Small Parts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭May Contain Small Parts


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Like a properly funded utility provider that can bill for the service it provides like almost everywhere else in the world and use that income to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of the water network to ensure stability of supply for generations to come

    But that would be daft cos it rains loads in Ireland so we don't need to worry

    The key isn't just billing, it's borrowing.
    When Irish Water was set up it was with the aim to allow money to be borrowed(many billions) to invest in infrastructure without it counting towards the State deficit - similar to PPP schemes for roads etc. but on a bigger scale.

    IMO, it was because the EU said that this debt would go on the State balance sheets that water charges were dropped, not so much because of the protests/refusals.

    This isn't likely to change, so I think the model they were looking to go for is dead anyway.


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    #81
    db
    Registered Users Posts: 1,078 ✭✭✭db


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    For the past 80 years, they have been trying to drain the Shannon. This is a great opportunity to get rid of some of it. It was not long ago, when the Shannon flooded a huge area of farmland causing huge costs to homes, crops and livestock.

    They wanted Government bail out (literally) and financial assistance. Now they want to keep the water.

    You cannot please some folks.

    I'm not sure what you mean by your first sentence but the only people trying to drain the Shannon for the last 80 years have been the ESB. The reduced water flow since the canal was built has completely silted up the original course of the river.

    The pipeline will have zero impact on any future flooding of the Shannon below the extraction point. The river floods at over 400 cumecs while the pipeline will take 4 cumecs, no more than a drop in the ocean.

    The only way I can see to improve the flooding above Limerick city is to de-commission Ardnacrusha, and send most of the volume of water through the original river. That will gradually increase the capacity of the river back to what it was before the canal was built. The canal can then be used to take excess water during floods. I can't see this ever happening though.


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    #82
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    db wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you mean by your first sentence but the only people trying to drain the Shannon for the last 80 years have been the ESB. The reduced water flow since the canal was built has completely silted up the original course of the river.

    This from Irish waterways history
    ← Dublin to Shannon Harbour 1831B Specials on the Shannon-Erne Waterway? →
    Draining the Shannon
    Posted on Monday 25 December 2017 | 1 Comment

    Lough Allen to Sligo (OSI 25″ ~1900)

    In looking at the map of Ireland, it has appeared to me that it may be found of advantage to prevent the waters of Lough Allen from flowing into the Shannon, and to cut a channel in a north-westerly direction, along which they may run into Sligo Bay. By this disposition of the waters of Lough Allen, not only will the channel of the Shannon be relieved from the superabundant water which now flows along during the rainy season, but they will act very beneficially in scouring out the harbour of Sligo. The Shannon might likewise be made available to the supply of power to several valuable mills to be erected on its course.

    The Report of Mr George Stephenson, Civil Engineer, London, 9th July, 1831, to the Committee appointed to inquire into the practicability of improving the navigation of the Shannon, and for draining the lands in the vicinage
    The above is from the above publication,

    The dream of every politician since was to drain the Shannon and relieve the annual flooding. That way they would gain unending thanks and votes.


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    #83
    db
    Registered Users Posts: 1,078 ✭✭✭db


    That is from an English engineer 250 years ago, it hardly backs up your point that people in the Limerick area (I am guessing that that is who you refer to as "they") have been trying to drain the Shannon for the last 80 years. I see you also ignored my point that the pipeline will do nothing to relieve the flooding on the Shannon below the Parteen weir.


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    #84
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It is the population of Clare, Offaly, and right up to Carrick on Shannon will all see a draining of the Shannon as a 'good thing'. As such, it is good for parish pump vote getting, even if it never happens. Floods come every so often, and are soon forgotten.


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    #85
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    It's simple. A few basic questions need answers. Has Dublin enough water?
    What effect would mains refurbishment have on the first question?
    If it needs more where can that be sourced, at least capital and operational cost?

    It's good to remember that mains refurbishment is not optional. It needs to be done anyway.


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    #86
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    A number of years ago, (more than ten), our house was part of a mains refurbishment project. Before this the mains would burst, no water, and be repaired, followed by a prolonged brown water supply. The project consisted of digging a hole for each connection, feeding a rope down the old mains and pulling a blue plastic pipe down the old pipe. Connections were then made to each house - meters connected. Increased pressure, better flow, and sparkling clean water.

    One house had a leak of many thousands of litres per day. At the end of the project, leakage was zero - none - not a drop. The project was not continued because IW was going to take over, but not a word ever was spoken about the project. All the shiny meters we had were replaced by IW.

    Imagine how many pipes would have been replaced if they had continued with more projects. They have to get on with pipe replacements anyway.

    The Shannon project is a long term solution, pipe repairs are a now problem.


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    #87
    LiamaDelta
    Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭LiamaDelta


    Sam Russell wrote:
    Imagine how many pipes would have been replaced if they had continued with more projects. They have to get on with pipe replacements anyway.


    They are continuing with more of these projects regularly, just not in your area. They are now doing them according to priority i.e. the worst cases first (or in some cases the worst cases that are easiest to do).


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    #88
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,128 ✭✭✭plodder


    plodder wrote: »
    See attached link: not much flow (11 m3/sec). Surprised it's even that much to be honest.

    ESB report worth keeping an eye on, to see how low it goes in weeks to come:

    http://www.esbhydro.ie/Shannon/08-Total-Parteen-Weir-Flow.pdf
    Turns out the minimum allowed flow rate of the river is 10 m3/sec. So, that explains the 11 m3/sec figure that's been experienced for the last month or so. Lough Derg's water levels are kept within specific bounds as well.

    What is more interesting then is the levels in Lough Ree, which must be what is ultimately supplying that 11 cubic metres a second. The attached image shows data for the last 30 days. Seems to have been stable enough for the last week, maybe from the bit of rain there has been, but clearly was on a downward trend for the few weeks prior to that. I imagine some reduction is normal for the time of year and the dry spell particularly. I wonder if the abnormally high temperatures have had an effect on losses due to evaporation, which can be significant apparently.


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    #89
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    plodder wrote: »
    I wonder if the abnormally high temperatures have had an effect on losses due to evaporation, which can be significant apparently.
    Yes.

    But there's also the lack of water coming in.

    Soil moisture deficits are currently in excess of 75 mm over Leinster and Muster with drought conditions.

    or in English the fields could easily soak up 75mm of rain. Which is about a months rainfall in Gurteen.


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    #90
    Bonzo Delaney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭Bonzo Delaney


    Prob a stupid question and slightly off topic
    But curious to know the answer from someone more clued in to this project.
    Why can't the canals not be used to transport water from the Shannon to Dublin ? Saving the cost of a pipe line. Prob have to automate the gates though.


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    #91
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Bonzo Delaney wrote: »
    Prob a stupid question and slightly off topic
    But curious to know the answer from someone more clued in to this project.
    Why can't the canals not be used to transport water from the Shannon to Dublin ? Saving the cost of a pipe line. Prob have to automate the gates though.

    Pipeline is more efficient. Once it gets to the top of the hill, it just goes downhill on its own by gravity, and does not get contaminated by oil, effluent, etc. The plan is to design the route so this happens, whereas a canal is much harder to control.

    Also more under control of IW using a pipe.


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