Total disregard of science from mainstream left and right when it suits them

professore · 10-07-2018 03:35PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

There’s a weight of scientific evidence for the “arse cheeks, barely any clothes” bullet point?

I'm sure someone somewhere has a PhD in it

_Dara_ · 10-07-2018 03:37PM

professore wrote: »

I'm sure someone somewhere has a PhD in it

Oh, okay. You said there was. I thought you knew.

professore · 10-07-2018 03:37PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well i am pretty sure we are living in the now so why not use the term we use now? or is it a just a cheap attempt to prove some point on your behalf?

Nope. I genuinely used gender as I would have grown up using it. As interchangeable for biological sex. It's no longer appropriate to use it like that so I shouldn't have.

professore · 10-07-2018 03:41PM

I've edited the original post as follows due to feedback ...

Something I've been mulling over recently. How the left and the right both totally disregard science when it suits them. Below I've outlined some of the ridiculous positions.

Here in Ireland our media and culture is heavily left leaning so we get the typical left leaning science denial:

Men and women are identical in every way except when they aren't. Yet people are born gay. So being straight is a social construct while being gay isn't. Also toxic masculinity exists, and is socially constructed, but it must be the mothers and mainly female teachers of these toxic men that are training them to be toxic?
If men and women, ethnic and sex groups are not represented in certain prestigious careers in exact proportion to their incidence in the population, it must be discrimination, while less attractive occupations are ignored (bin collectors, mining etc), or occupations that are overwhelmingly women (medicine, psychology, nursing) or LGBT (media, acting), or all female boards of directors are seen as "victories for equality"
Global warming is real, but the obvious solution of nuclear power is seen as evil and dangerous, despite it being by far and away the safest, most reliable and cleanest form of energy we have that can ACTUALLY replace fossil fuels and not send us back to the 1500s.
Western men are sexist if they suggest a woman shouldn't wear a tight mini skirt and in your face boobs in the workplace while men have to conform to a rigid dress code in the office, yet Muslim men telling their women to cover their faces is somehow empowering.
Palestinians good, Israelis bad
Young men who stare at women a little too long who dress with their arse cheeks hanging out or barely any clothes with stuffed bras somehow have something wrong with them, but a man who walked around with his arse cheeks showing, or their package enhanced, would be stared at, ridiculed and/or arrested.
Religion has nothing whatsoever of value and is totally evil. Unless it's Islam.

The right:

People choose to be gay because they are depraved perverts.
Global warming is a hoax. Continuing to drive the concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere beyond levels seen 350000 years ago and on a long cycle will have no affect on the climate despite 98% of scientists saying otherwise.
The bible is literally true
Israelis good, Palestinians bad
ALL immigrants are evil and out to take your job. Unless they are cleaning your house or minding your kids for a pittance.
The Koran is full of terrible advice about stoning people and is therefore a book of war but the Old Testament, which preaches pretty much the same thing isn't.

Mentioning you think anything off this list isn't true will get you attacked online. The media all follow one or the other narrative.

professore · 10-07-2018 03:44PM

OK so rather than nitpicking at the details, do people agree / disagree? Or at least come up with some witty insults I've come to love from boardsies?

RIGOLO · 10-07-2018 03:45PM

professore wrote: »

OK so rather than nitpicking at the details, do people agree / disagree? Or at least come up with some witty insults I've come to love from boardsies?

Im going to take the line I spotted on another thread today ,

Arguing with an idiot just makes 2 idiots.

ohnonotgmail · 10-07-2018 03:46PM

professore wrote: »

I've edited the original post as follows due to feedback ...

Something I've been mulling over recently. How the left and the right both totally disregard science when it suits them. Below I've outlined some of the ridiculous positions.

Here in Ireland our media and culture is heavily left leaning so we get the typical left leaning science denial:

Men and women are identical in every way except when they aren't. Yet people are born gay. So being straight is a social construct while being gay isn't.

What???? what nonsense is this?

professore wrote: »

Also toxic masculinity exists, and is socially constructed, but it must be the mothers and mainly female teachers of these toxic men that are training them to be toxic?

Why mainly mothers and female teachers?

hatrickpatrick · 10-07-2018 03:48PM

professore wrote: »

Well I guess the search for truth is the ultimate goal of science.

Sure, I'm just not sure how support or disdain for one side or another in a territorial conflict can really be talked about under the umbrella of "disregard for science". Science doesn't really have anything to do with the ideology of power vs fairness.

_Dara_ · 10-07-2018 03:54PM

professore wrote: »

OK so rather than nitpicking at the details, do people agree / disagree? Or at least come up with some witty insults I've come to love from boardsies?

It’s a fairly rambling, ponderous post. It’s not exactly easy to parse. And much of it doesn’t seem grounded in science.

professore · 10-07-2018 03:55PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

What???? what nonsense is this?

Well what's wrong with that? Am I supposed to defend my own errors and insist I'm right all the time?

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Why mainly mothers and female teachers?

Most teachers are female and most people raising children are still female. If men are toxic because of societal influences (which by the way I don't agree with for the most part - a large part of it is biological as far as the research goes - look at twin studies) then a large proportion of that is on their heads, especially since many of these toxic men come from families where there is no father figure present.

professore · 10-07-2018 03:58PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

It’s a fairly rambling, ponderous post. It’s not exactly easy to parse. And much of it doesn’t seem grounded in science.

Well you could pick one bullet point you disagree / agree with most strongly ... they are 1 or 2 lines at most.

wexie · 10-07-2018 03:58PM

professore wrote: »

OK so rather than nitpicking at the details, do people agree / disagree? Or at least come up with some witty insults I've come to love from boardsies?

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

To me a lot of what you've pointed out is explained in the above quote.

Because we're now all 'equals' it's no longer acceptable to tell someone it's great that they have an opinion, and you support their right to have an opinion, but you still reserve the right to ignore their opinion because they have the intellect of a houseplant.

Combine that with the fact that many of these people now have been given a voice and a platform on the internet.....et voila

I don't know what era we're supposed to be moving into...but I doubt that it's going to be remembered as the golden age of science and reason.

Ipso · 10-07-2018 03:59PM

There is an anti science streak that pops up in liberalism in areas like vaccines and GMOs.

I’d recommend this book, basically people will go ridiculous lengths to avoid admitting being wrong.
https://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-Made-but-Not/dp/0544574788/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1531234551&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=mistakes+were+made+but+not+by+me&dpPl=1&dpID=51%2Bu%2Ba69RoL&ref=plSrch

ohnonotgmail · 10-07-2018 04:02PM

professore wrote: »

Well what's wrong with that? Am I supposed to defend my own errors and insist I'm right all the time?

you say that being straight is a social construct while being gay is not. Presumably you have some evidence to support this rubbish?

professore wrote: »

Most teachers are female and most people raising children are still female. If men are toxic because of societal influences (which by the way I don't agree with for the most part - a large part of it is biological as far as the research goes - look at twin studies) then a large proportion of that is on their heads, especially since many of these toxic men come from families where there is no father figure present.

so women are responsible for something that you dont think is true? sweet baby jesus.

Taytoland · 10-07-2018 04:02PM

The left's rejection of religion has nothing to do with science, it's about rejecting socially authoritarian
cultural values

News to me that the left rejects authoritarianism.

_Dara_ · 10-07-2018 04:04PM

professore wrote: »

Well you could pick one bullet point you disagree / agree with most strongly ... they are 1 or 2 lines at most.

Well, I asked you what weight of scientific evidence was behind one point because you said there was science backing all of them and you said you assumed someone had done a PhD on the subject. So, you weren’t sure. And if there’s a PhD on the topic somewhere, it’ll be in a soft science.

wexie · 10-07-2018 04:05PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

Well, I asked you what weight of scientific evidence was behind one point because you said there was science backing all of them and you said you assumed someone had done a PhD on the subject. So, you weren’t sure. And if there’s a PhD on the topic somewhere, it’ll be in a soft science.

arse cracks I believe it was....:D

professore · 10-07-2018 04:06PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you say that being straight is a social construct while being gay is not. Presumably you have some evidence to support this rubbish?

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so women are responsible for something that you dont think is true? sweet baby jesus.

The points I made are all examples of the bull**** that is spouted today. I don't agree with ANY of them !!!! That's the whole point !!!!

s7ryf3925pivug · 10-07-2018 04:06PM

Toxic masculinity is stuff like ignoring symptoms of illness instead of going to the doctor because you identify as being tough as part of being male. That is valid - parts of masculine identity cause harm. It appears to be commonly misunderstood as the idea that masculinity itself is toxic. It's not; lots of very positive aspects of stereotypically male identies. Protecting loved ones, providing for kids, courage in adversity as examples.

Yeah I think a lot of guys act in negative ways because they think rightly or wrongly it attracts women... Something that tends to be ignored for some reason.

hatrickpatrick · 10-07-2018 04:08PM

Taytoland wrote: »

News to me that the left rejects authoritarianism.

A lot of us do, and that's why there are so many of us who get accused of being alt-right aligned simply for rejecting "authoritarian liberalism", which in my view and the view of many other liberals is an absolute oxymoron.

hatrickpatrick · 10-07-2018 04:13PM

cruel_barber wrote: »

the israeli palestinian conflict doesnt divide along left right lines , in america both left and right are unconditionally pro israeli , its the one thing which binds the political class

That's not quite true. Both the mainstream Democrats and the entire Republican party are right of centre. Within the actual left, which at the moment comprises a lot of independent voters and some people trying to force the Democratic Party back away from the right (The Bernie Sanders / Elizabeth Warren faction), being pro-Palestinian is extremely common. And it's one of the many ways in which they feel cheated by a two-party dichotomy where the two parties overlap in so many areas as to deny voters a meaningful policy choice at the ballot box.

im quite right wing by irish standards but believe the israelis are the vilians in that conflict

I think we're different in Ireland, because our acute post-colonial and post-partition national psyche is a big enough societal factor to transcend any real partisanship. We might be somewhat unusual in this regard.

as for climate change , i can see with my own blooming eyes how much rain falls these days compared to twenty years ago , i fully accept climate change is a huge threat

I'd say the same again though. In Ireland, and most of Europe, issues like these transcend the political partisan aisle. Most of the OP's bullet points are very much relevant to US politics, but become less so (not completely detached, simply less intertwined) when one crosses the Atlantic.

Again, this comes down to the idiotic system in the US of having only two major parties expected to represent a nation of such a ridiculous size.

professore · 10-07-2018 04:14PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

Well, I asked you what weight of scientific evidence was behind one point because you said there was science backing all of them and you said you assumed someone had done a PhD on the subject. So, you weren’t sure. And if there’s a PhD on the topic somewhere, it’ll be in a soft science.

I thought you realised I was joking about the PhD in arse crack studies.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 10-07-2018 04:15PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

A lot of us do, and that's why there are so many of us who get accused of being alt-right aligned simply for rejecting "authoritarian liberalism", which in my view and the view of many other liberals is an absolute oxymoron.

The people who accuse you of such are regressive leftists not liberals.

You can't compare the two. It would be like equating your average conservative to a skinhead.

professore · 10-07-2018 04:18PM

Maximus Tiny Waste wrote: »

Toxic masculinity is stuff like ignoring symptoms of illness instead of going to the doctor because you identify as being tough as part of being male. That is valid - parts of masculine identity cause harm. It appears to be commonly misunderstood as the idea that masculinity itself is toxic. It's not; lots of very positive aspects of stereotypically male identies. Protecting loved ones, providing for kids, courage in adversity as examples.

Yeah I think a lot of guys act in negative ways because they think rightly or wrongly it attracts women... Something that tends to be ignored for some reason.

I have a problem with the term itself. If toxic masculinity exists, so does toxic femininity. Yet to use that term would have you branded a sexist. Personally I prefer asshole or bitch as it doesn't refer to a whole sex. No one would ever say toxic blackness or toxic islam except far right loonies.

Lots of girls act in negative ways too towards guys for the same reasons. That doesn't mean I would brand the whole sex with a label to describe it.

_Dara_ · 10-07-2018 04:18PM

professore wrote: »

I thought you realised I was joking about the PhD in arse crack studies.

Okay so not all your bullet points have science backing them? Glad we’ve cleared that up.

hatrickpatrick · 10-07-2018 04:19PM

cruel_barber wrote: »

indeed , the left are deeply authoritarian , they have to be , left wing ideology requires a massive amount of state control in order for their ideals to have any chance of succeeding

Generally speaking, the left has historically been socially libertarian and economically authoritarian. The right has been the opposite - opposed, for instance, to "big government" when it comes to money, but not so much when it comes to telling people what they can and can't do in the privacy of their own homes.

There's a huge political shift going on in recent years which has created political orphans on both sides. Those who grew up with the left of the 1990s and most of the 2000s, which was focused on social and civil freedom along with economic leftism are largely finding the left an increasingly hostile place due to its counter-intuitive embracing of culturally and socially authoritarian values. Where once the left was the home of free speech, sexual freedom, opposition to surveillance, opposition to censorship etc, large parts of it have now become the home of internet regulation, trigger warnings, sex-negativity through a massive over-expansion of definitions around harassment, and support for using surveillance and censorship to intimidate and shut down the right wing.

That has created a large political "bloc" which identifies as economically left wing but also socially libertarian, like the left used to be - but currently, that bloc has no party or political identity to coalesce around.

I suspect that things will settle in the coming years once this bloc gets organised and creates a new political movement with a deliberately separate and distinct identity from the currently mainstream "authoritarian liberals". But these things take time.

professore · 10-07-2018 04:23PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

Okay so not all your bullet points have science backing them? Glad we’ve cleared that up.

I think you missed my clarification on that in post 35.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 10-07-2018 04:23PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

It’s a fairly rambling, ponderous post. It’s not exactly easy to parse. And much of it doesn’t seem grounded in science.

The words. The words!

There are too many.

10-07-2018 04:24PM

Maximus Tiny Waste wrote: »

Toxic masculinity is stuff like ignoring symptoms of illness instead of going to the doctor because you identify as being tough as part of being male. That is valid - parts of masculine identity cause harm. It appears to be commonly misunderstood as the idea that masculinity itself is toxic. It's not; lots of very positive aspects of stereotypically male identies. Protecting loved ones, providing for kids, courage in adversity as examples.

Toxic Masculinity is complete and utter BS. When it comes to men, the gender is at fault. When it comes to women, it comes down to the individual. Any negative behavior isn't considered by the male as an individual , but assigned to the whole as a gender culture.

Toxic masculinity is a great example of how far we're moving away from gender equality.

Yeah I think a lot of guys act in negative ways because they think rightly or wrongly it attracts women... Something that tends to be ignored for some reason.

Because then, people would have to admit that women bear some responsibility for how dating behaviors have developed. It's not as if men learn dating in a vacuum, although based on these kinds of pop-psychology ideas, it sometimes seems like we do. The reactions of women to approaches, the behavior of women in dating environments, the behavior of women in relationships, etc whether positive or negative is ignored in the face of casting all responsibility on to the "guys".

professore · 10-07-2018 04:24PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Generally speaking, the left has historically been socially libertarian and economically authoritarian. The right has been the opposite - opposed, for instance, to "big government" when it comes to money, but not so much when it comes to telling people what they can and can't do in the privacy of their own homes.

There's a huge political shift going on in recent years which has created political orphans on both sides. Those who grew up with the left of the 1990s and most of the 2000s, which was focused on social and civil freedom along with economic leftism are largely finding the left an increasingly hostile place due to its counter-intuitive embracing of culturally and socially authoritarian values. Where once the left was the home of free speech, sexual freedom, opposition to surveillance, opposition to censorship etc, large parts of it have now become the home of internet regulation, trigger warnings, sex-negativity through a massive over-expansion of definitions around harassment, and support for using surveillance and censorship to intimidate and shut down the right wing.

That has created a large political "bloc" which identifies as economically left wing but also socially libertarian, like the left used to be - but currently, that bloc has no party or political identity to coalesce around.

I suspect that things will settle in the coming years once this bloc gets organised and creates a new political movement with a deliberately separate and distinct identity from the currently mainstream "authoritarian liberals". But these things take time.

Sign me up.

Total disregard of science from mainstream left and right when it suits them

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