Peak Trans

professore · 08-07-2018 04:58PM

robindch wrote: »

The only people pushing the idea that transgenderism is a pervasive, societal threat, especially to children, are people like Jordan Peterson (who makes enormous sums of money from talking up this threat), groups like the Iona Institute (who make political capital from talking up this threat) and movements like the far-right/alt-right neo-Nazis and white supremacists (ditto).

Jordan Peterson has nothing against trans people and has never said anything negative about them. His beef was with being legally forced to address people with any ridiculous pronoun they chose to come up with. I wouldn't put him in the same category as the Iona Institute at all. He's willing to debate and learn and admit when he's wrong, and is anti ideology unlike them.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 08-07-2018 04:58PM

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, I have very strong views on the subject but didn't feel my input was needed, but I can't not reply to this.

This is a sentence I hear so frequently, but never understand. It always reminds me of when people say "I'm not racist, but......", and 99.9% of the time, it's followed by an obviously racist statement.

So please, what is the "point" at which everybody/minorities should no longer be accommodated and treated equally?

This is a genuine question.

He gave the answer in the post you quoted.

professore · 08-07-2018 05:01PM

Good friends of mine have a middle child of 3 Uber competitive daughters who insisted for most of her childhood that she was a boy. She now is a happy adult woman, heterosexual, and laughs at that time saying how it was her way of getting attention. Imagine she had been force fed hormones and had a penis grafted on???!

Malayalam · 08-07-2018 05:02PM

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, I have very strong views on the subject but didn't feel my input was needed, but I can't not reply to this.

This is a sentence I hear so frequently, but never understand. It always reminds me of when people say "I'm not racist, but......", and 99.9% of the time, it's followed by an obviously racist statement.

So please, what is the "point" at which everybody/minorities should no longer be accommodated and treated equally?

This is a genuine question.

Up to the point they don't form or support a lobby that seeks to completely disengage science from what are to be accepted going forward as 'facts' maybe?

especially when it comes to the education of the impressionable.

Grayson · 08-07-2018 05:04PM

Wibbs wrote: »

The WHO had being trans as a mental disorder as late as 2016. So not exactly decades ago. And as I said many of the same experts who were OK with it being described as such are now not OK with it and the "vast majority of evidence" supported both positions until quite recently. Personally I wouldn't have labeled it a mental illness, though could see why it was and many trans people present with mental illnesses because of their condition. I would label it a gender condition, with a side order of dysmorphia.

Ok, so you don't think that experts are qualified to make these decisions. Who should then? The posters here who haven't got a clue? The octopus that made football predictions?

I'm trying to figure out if you disagree with me when I say that any treatment should be decided by experts or if you're just arguing for the sake of it.

btw, that article is behind a paywall for me. Could you post a transcript? Not all of us are fancy enough to have a subscription to the washington post. :P

Amalgam · 08-07-2018 05:11PM

Grayson wrote: »

Ok, so you don't think that experts are qualified to make these decisions. Who should then? The posters here who haven't got a clue? The octopus that made football predictions?

I'm trying to figure out if you disagree with me when I say that any treatment should be decided by experts or if you're just arguing for the sake of it.

btw, that article is behind a paywall for me. Could you post a transcript? Not all of us are fancy enough to have a subscription to the washington post. :P

Bing cache.

http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=https%3a%2f%2fwww.washingtonpost.com%2fnews%2fmorning-mix%2fwp%2f2016%2f07%2f28%2fthe-w-h-o-says-being-transgender-is-a-mental-illness-but-thats-about-to-change%2f&d=4513393969070682&mkt=en-IE&setlang=en-US&w=6n8MCWbEV0QEdBiwccT45lDVQ_N-nG63

Grayson · 08-07-2018 05:11PM

wexie wrote: »

Did you mean to write liberal there?

Like before it's entirely possible I misunderstand but I don't see how liberal and forced anything really go hand in hand?

Thanks by the way for replying.

There was a point where eugenics was seen as very ethical and better for society. The number of famous people in the 20's-50's who thought eugenics was good is astounding. Thankfully most of the western world is now more focused on individual rights.

As a side note israel was secretly giving contraceptives to black jews to stop them having kids as recently as 2013. And there's many other countries that have similar stories.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/30/forced-contraception-jewish-ethopian-women

Grayson · 08-07-2018 05:17PM

Amalgam wrote: »

Bing cache.

http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=https%3a%2f%2fwww.washingtonpost.com%2fnews%2fmorning-mix%2fwp%2f2016%2f07%2f28%2fthe-w-h-o-says-being-transgender-is-a-mental-illness-but-thats-about-to-change%2f&d=4513393969070682&mkt=en-IE&setlang=en-US&w=6n8MCWbEV0QEdBiwccT45lDVQ_N-nG63

Cheers. I think we need to bring in a house rule that we shouldn't link to subscription sites

Interesting article. It's clear that gender incongruence is a thing but most of the mental anguish that people felt is caused by external factors.

The study also reveals how much a toll societal stigma can have on a young person. A 2012 study showed that teenagers who grew up with unsupportive families had a 57 percent suicide rate, compared to a 4 suicide rate for those who had supportive families. Some studies show that transgender people can develop post-traumatic stress disorder just from being transgender.

There's a hell of a lot of posters here who would qualify as unsupportive. That was one of the reasons WHO changed the characterization because it added stigma to people who are trans and enabled people who are transphobic to say that trans people are mentally ill.

Amalgam · 08-07-2018 05:24PM

Grayson wrote: »

Cheers.

Google has removed the 'cached' option for certain news outlets, after gettiing the willies following various court cases and the threats of ongoing legal action.

Bing is your friend for the 'cached' option on most, including newspaper, URLs..

ItAintMeBabe · 08-07-2018 05:27PM

Malayalam wrote: »

Up to the point they don't form or support a lobby that seeks to completely disengage science from what are to be accepted going forward as 'facts' maybe?

especially when it comes to the education of the impressionable.

Where/who is this so called lobby?

I attend LGBT events, I work in healthcare, I am very active among the community/clubs/societies. I am yet to encounter anything of the sort.

I know many, many transgender people and their families. Never, ever has any of them spoken to me about science i.e. what genitalia they were born with. I would image it is because it is absolutely none of my damn business/concern. Nobody is trying to target the "impressionable", as you are making it sound.

Look, I am a cis-gendered woman, I am not the person who should be giving opinions on this because it does not effect my daily life and although I may try, I cannot possibly understand/give insight into it. I would never in a million years, regardless of topic or situation say, "everybody should be treated equally, up to a point..." because its a total paradox.

I really feel like this is a thread that needs to be closed. It doesn't warrant opinions in after hours.

Amalgam · 08-07-2018 05:33PM

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

I really feel like this is a thread that needs to be closed. It doesn't warrant opinions in after hours.

Good grief.

peasant · 08-07-2018 05:34PM

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

I really feel like this is a thread that needs to be closed. It doesn't warrant opinions in after hours.

Every other thread in AH sooner or later ends in "won't somebody think of the children"...now someone opens a thread actually thinking of the children and you want it closed...

hmm...

ItAintMeBabe · 08-07-2018 05:39PM

peasant wrote: »

Every other thread in AH sooner or later ends in "won't somebody think of the children"...now someone opens a thread actually thinking of the children and you want it closed...

hmm...

Feel free to go back through my post history. I have never once posted a "won't somebody think of the children" type reply. I think the thread should be closed because after hours does not need a thread full of people commenting on another person's gender.

If there was a thread discussing sexuality, inter-race relationships, ethnic minorities etc. in a similar manner/tone, it would be closed immediately.

Amalgam · 08-07-2018 05:42PM

The thread started out from miniature rubber genitals to something a lot more interesting and diverse. The thread has 'matured' very well, wether it is in After Hours or not doesn't really matter.

Try and see past the end of your own nose.

Malayalam · 08-07-2018 05:44PM

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

Feel free to go back through my post history. I have never once posted a "won't somebody think of the children" type reply. I think the thread should be closed because after hours does not need a thread full of people commenting on another person's gender.

If there was a thread discussing sexuality, inter-race relationships, ethnic minorities etc. in a similar manner/tone, it would be closed immediately.

I never intended to comment on other people's gender, as I made clear in the OP. My issue is with the rush to medicalisation of gender dysphoria in young children. I don't see this tone you are speaking of - people have been simply giving their opinions and curiosities, very few have even been suggestive of transphobia. I think a society - of which Boards forms a part - should be allowed, even encouraged, to discuss such consequent matters freely. I have given examples of the lobby - in the fields of education and medicine.

_Kaiser_ · 08-07-2018 05:58PM

Amalgam wrote: »

The thread started out from miniature rubber genitals to something a lot more interesting and diverse. The thread has 'matured' very well, wether it is in After Hours or not doesn't really matter.

Try and see past the end of your own nose.

It's unfortunately an all too common trend in such topics.

The most "progressive" elements seem entirely resistant to actual debate, questions, or counter-points on a topic and will instead resort to name-calling, baseless accusations, and then attempts/calls to have the discussion shut down entirely.

It only weakens their position IMO and it's ultimately self-defeating as others will harden their own stance against such tactics (and by extension whatever merits the argument itself may have) as a result.

If something is "right" then it should be able to withstand a healthy and reasonable discussion.

ItAintMeBabe · 08-07-2018 06:00PM

Malayalam wrote: »

I never intended to comment on other people's gender, as I made clear in the OP. My issue is with the rush to medicalisation of gender dysphoria in young children. I don't see this tone you are speaking of - people have been simply giving their opinions and curiosities, very few have even been suggestive of transphobia. I think a society - of which Boards forms a part - should be allowed, even encouraged, to discuss such consequent matters freely. I have given examples of the lobby - in the fields of education and medicine.

Ok then let me pose this question to you;

Have you ever encountered a young child who is transgender?

Because I have, and it is a very difficult situation for both child and parent. Say for example you have a child who has been born with male genitalia and has been identified as a boy since birth. From toddler age they begin to display tendencies which are more commonly associated with those of a girl.

When the child starts to speak, they been to vocalize that they are a girl. They are not a boy. They do not want to be a boy and you are wrong.

Say you as a parent, ignore this/challenge this/try and convince your child otherwise. Imagine how detrimental that would be in the long term.

Say this child progresses to age 6/7 and continues to vocalize that they are a girl, not a boy. They do this at home, in school, everywhere. They are adamant. You continue to try a squash this/encourage your child to hide same.

This continues to age 8/9, your child still has not hit puberty but a big personality change has been noted. You child continues to vocalize that they are a girl, not a boy. Difference is after 5/6 years of telling your child that they are a boy and if they still feel like they are a girl when the are older, you can talk about it then, they are now showing signs of depression and everything that goes with it (i.e. self harm, suicidal ideation).

I have worked in CAMHS and seen kids of 8/9 with suicidal ideation. If it was due to the reasons above, do you continue to tell your child that when they are older you can look at their options, or do you let your child be miserable and let their mental health suffer?

Malayalam · 08-07-2018 06:03PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's unfortunately an all too common trend in such topics.

The most "progressive" elements seem entirely resistant to actual debate, questions, or counter-points on a topic and will instead resort to name-calling, baseless accusations, and then attempts/calls to have the discussion shut down entirely.

It only weakens their position IMO and it's ultimately self-defeating as others will harden their own stance against such tactics (and by extension whatever merits the argument itself may have) as a result.

If something is "right" then it should be able to withstand a healthy and reasonable discussion.

And that is actually true. Sometimes if I start out with a hardline stance (Yep, I'm human) on something I will read an opinion or anecdote posted somewhere like here and it can modify that hardline stance somewhat, or it will at least have me going out to do a bit of weeding while I think over the other person's opinion. It might not even be an immediate change will happen, somethings could take quite some time to percolate and modify my opinion, but if x,y or z-phobe is thrown at me I will often just bristle and hunker down.

Malayalam · 08-07-2018 06:08PM

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

Ok then let me pose this question to you;

Have you ever encountered a young child who is transgender?

Because I have, and it is a very difficult situation for both child and parent. Say for example you have a child who has been born with male genitalia and has been identified as a boy since birth. From toddler age they begin to display tendencies which are more commonly associated with those of a girl.

When the child starts to speak, they been to vocalize that they are a girl. They are not a boy. They do not want to be a boy and you are wrong.

Say you as a parent, ignore this/challenge this/try and convince your child otherwise. Imagine how detrimental that would be in the long term.

Say this child progresses to age 6/7 and continues to vocalize that they are a girl, not a boy. They do this at home, in school, everywhere. They are adamant. You continue to try a squash this/encourage your child to hide same.

This continues to age 8/9, your child still has not hit puberty but a big personality change has been noted. You child continues to vocalize that they are a girl, not a boy. Difference is after 5/6 years of telling your child that they are a boy and if they still feel like they are a girl when the are older, you can talk about it then, they are now showing signs of depression and everything that goes with it (i.e. self harm, suicidal ideation).

I have worked in CAMHS and seen kids of 8/9 with suicidal ideation. If it was due to the reasons above, do you continue to tell your child that when they are older you can look at their options, or do you let your child be miserable and let their mental health suffer?

I think it is an extraordinarily difficult area. I think an inclination to medicate such distress is not the best way to go. A society that was more accepting of gender variance and creative expression might go further to helping such a child. But not to the point of providing prosthetics or denying biology. There will be time for dealing with hormones and surgeries when the child is older, if only because they are too young to make such HUGE decisions as children. And yes, I knew one once. Quite well. He was allowed to express his feelings and he was a great kid. He unfortunately committed suicide very young.

pjohnson · 08-07-2018 06:08PM

If you posted this in LGB forum it'd be locked, post it in AH and its still expected to be locked by the same people....

_Kaiser_ · 08-07-2018 06:16PM

pjohnson wrote: »

If you posted this in LGB forum it'd be locked, post it in AH and its still expected to be locked by the same people....

It seems that the expected response nowadays on pretty much any social topic is to adopt the liberal progressive stance on it. Anything else (even questions) is to be against the whole idea and thus open to be attacked and belittled.

You can really see where the term "echo chamber" has evolved from as all such militants want to hear is people agreeing with them and validating their own position (social media is incredibly damaging in this sense in my opinion)

We should never be afraid of debate, questions or disagreements so long as they are expressed in a constructive and respectful manner. If we are to adopt positions that challenge the - up until now - fundamental concepts of society and person, it's not only vital that these are discussed openly, but also that people are given time to consider the argument and their own stance AND an acceptance that some may never adapt to the new norm, AND THAT IS OK TOO so long as they still find a way to at least respect other's choices.

The Bishop Basher · 08-07-2018 06:27PM

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

This is a sentence I hear so frequently, but never understand. It always reminds me of when people say "I'm not racist, but......", and 99.9% of the time, it's followed by an obviously racist statement.

Are you suggesting I’m transphobic ?

If not, what’s the relevance of this statement ?

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

So please, what is the "point" at which everybody/minorities should no longer be accommodated and treated equally?

I never said minorites shouldn’t be accommodated and treated equally.

No problem striving for it but it’s unrealistic to expect it in reality.

The tipping point for me would be when we start creating laws that force 99.5% of the population to change the way they speak, think or act just to keep .5% of the population happy.

BattleCorp · 08-07-2018 06:40PM

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

Have you ever encountered a young child who is transgender?

I've a friend with a female child who wanted to be a boy from the age of 5. I'm not sure that counts as transgender though as she is now 12 and has grown out of that phase and is very happy being a girl.

I have worked in CAMHS and seen kids of 8/9 with suicidal ideation. If it was due to the reasons above, do you continue to tell your child that when they are older you can look at their options, or do you let your child be miserable and let their mental health suffer?

Yes, you tell your child that they can look at the options when they get older. Yes, by all means let them live as their chosen sex, let them wear female/male clothes, do male/female things, but I wouldn't begin hormone treatment, surgery or anything medical like that until they were older. I also wouldn't give them 'stick on willies' as in the link in the OP.

Maxpfizer · 08-07-2018 06:40PM

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

Ok then let me pose this question to you;

Have you ever encountered a young child who is transgender?

Because I have, and it is a very difficult situation for both child and parent. Say for example you have a child who has been born with male genitalia and has been identified as a boy since birth. From toddler age they begin to display tendencies which are more commonly associated with those of a girl.

When the child starts to speak, they been to vocalize that they are a girl. They are not a boy. They do not want to be a boy and you are wrong.

Say you as a parent, ignore this/challenge this/try and convince your child otherwise. Imagine how detrimental that would be in the long term.

Say this child progresses to age 6/7 and continues to vocalize that they are a girl, not a boy. They do this at home, in school, everywhere. They are adamant. You continue to try a squash this/encourage your child to hide same.

This continues to age 8/9, your child still has not hit puberty but a big personality change has been noted. You child continues to vocalize that they are a girl, not a boy. Difference is after 5/6 years of telling your child that they are a boy and if they still feel like they are a girl when the are older, you can talk about it then, they are now showing signs of depression and everything that goes with it (i.e. self harm, suicidal ideation).

I have worked in CAMHS and seen kids of 8/9 with suicidal ideation. If it was due to the reasons above, do you continue to tell your child that when they are older you can look at their options, or do you let your child be miserable and let their mental health suffer?

Surely if the child has male genitalia then it's easy to explain to them how they are male and why that is the case?

Then it's just a case of allowing them to express themselves in whichever way they choose while keeping them grounded by explaining biology?

It always seemed to me that a huge part of these issues come down to the connotations or the baggage that comes with the terms "male" and "female" or "boy" and "girl".

So just because a person has male genitalia they don't necessarily need to conform to some rigid male behavior or expectation.

However, I fail to see how they would be able to escape the reality of having male biology.

Surely this doesn't only apply to gender related issues in kids?

It would seem logical to me that a child who has difficulty understanding certain aspects and grasping certain facts of reality in ANY circumstance at all would be a risk for depression, self harm, suicide etc? Even worse when attempts to explain reality to the child fail and they continue to experience dysphoria.

While I agree with you that it's not good to ignore or force the child and it's awful to just leave them to be miserable and to neglect their mental health, what are the legitimate, positive, solutions to this problem?

Is there any chance that it's also harmful to completely indulge them and go all in on gender reassignment etc?

ItAintMeBabe · 08-07-2018 06:49PM

Rennaws wrote: »

Are you suggesting I’m transphobic ?

If not, what’s the relevance of this statement ?

The relevance is that you made a statement and I sais it reminded me of another statement I've heard a lot.

I never mentioned the word or implied you were transphobic in any way, shape or form.

Read what I said, you made a statement and I asked you a genuine question to try and understand your view point a bit more. Stop clutching at straws.

[/QUOTE]I never said minorites shouldn’t be accommodated and treated equally.

No problem striving for it but it’s unrealistic to expect it in reality.

The tipping point for me would be when we start creating laws that force 99.5% of the population to change the way they speak, think or act just to keep .5% of the population happy.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you did. In that very statement.

ItAintMeBabe · 08-07-2018 07:03PM

In reply to Mazpfizer;
Surely if the child has male genitalia then it's easy to explain to them how they are male and why that is the case?

You can explain why they were born with certain genitalia, that does not provide answers and support with regards to how they are feeling

Then it's just a case of allowing them to express themselves in whichever way they choose while keeping them grounded by explaining biology?

What if they don't accept that? What if they tell you they are disgusted by their bodies and it is not their own and they cannot live in it?

It always seemed to me that a huge part of these issues come down to the connotations or the baggage that comes with the terms "male" and "female" or "boy" and "girl".

So just because a person has male genitalia they don't necessarily need to conform to some rigid male behavior or expectation.

What you are saying here is that transgender kids should be happy with not conforming to societal norms, rather than being happy living their authentic lives

However, I fail to see how they would be able to escape the reality of having male biology.

Surely this doesn't only apply to gender related issues in kids?

It would seem logical to me that a child who has difficulty understanding certain aspects and grasping certain facts of reality in ANY circumstance at all would be a risk for depression, self harm, suicide etc? Even worse when attempts to explain reality to the child fail and they continue to experience dysphoria.

Dysphoria is not a mental illness. Also, you're statements and tone (i.e. the use of the word "reality" are I'd imagine very insulting to any transgender person. Is what they are experiencing and feeling not "reality" too?

While I agree with you that it's not good to ignore or force the child and it's awful to just leave them to be miserable and to neglect their mental health, what are the legitimate, positive, solutions to this problem?

Being open, speaking to your kids, educating your kids on all gender issues. Speaking with your GP. Counselling. Engaging with support groups like TENI, theres plenty of solutions.

Is there any chance that it's also harmful to completely indulge them and go all in on gender reassignment etc?

Impossible to gereralise, every situation would need looked at individually

The Bishop Basher · 08-07-2018 07:11PM

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

Read what I said, you made a statement and I asked you a genuine question to try and understand your view point a bit more. Stop clutching at straws.

No. First off you made the following statement..

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

This is a sentence I hear so frequently, but never understand. It always reminds me of when people say "I'm not racist, but......", and 99.9% of the time, it's followed by an obviously racist statement.

And I asked you what the relevance was.

Then I answered your question.

So please do share, what was the relevance ?

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

Yes, you did. In that very statement.

No I didn’t.

I stated that we should strive for equality while accepting the unfortunate reality that true equality for all is neither possible nor realistic.

Now is there any part of that sentence that says I’m opposed to equality ?

ItAintMeBabe · 08-07-2018 07:18PM

Rennaws wrote: »

No. First off you made the following statement..

And I asked you what the relevance was.

Then I answered your question.

So please do share, what was the relevance ?

No I didn’t.

I stated that we should strive for equality while accepting the unfortunate reality that true equality for all is neither possible nor realistic.

Now is there any part of that sentence that says I’m opposed to equality ?

I don't get what you're not getting here. Can I not say that one statement reminds me of another?

This is the first time you have said er should "strive for equality", what you said was "everyone should be accommodated and treated equally to a point...", which are two very different statements. But, I'm glad to hear you think we should strive for equality, and I'm glad to know the 0.5% might be included in that, seeing as your not transphobic.

Think I'm going to bow out of this thread now. Nothing more of relevance can be added and I don't feel like speanding my evening defending myself against someone who thinks I may have accused them of being transphobic when they themselves are the only one to use the term.

08-07-2018 07:23PM

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

Think I'm going to bow out of this thread now. Nothing more of relevance can be added and I don't feel like speanding my evening defending myself against someone who thinks I may have accused them of being transphobic when they themselves are the only one to use the term.

You asked a loaded question... That's why there's an issue. The manner of your response, suggested however subtly, that he was phobic.

How Soon Is Now · 08-07-2018 07:24PM

I'd be curious to see how many of these recent cases of transgender kids were more down to the parents then one hundred percent the kids themselves.

Im sure there's plenty of parents who lead there children down paths based on there own beliefs and there need to be seen as progressive and modern.

Peak Trans

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