Peak Trans

wexie · 08-07-2018 01:04PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No

You seem to misunderstand.

That is entirely possible

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Legal transition is self declared here in Ireland. Medical transition would require much more than self declared consent.

I presume that's the case everywhere no?

Like I said it's entirely possible I'm misinformed but it was my understanding Ireland is still quite conservative in these matters?

Wibbs · 08-07-2018 01:24PM

Grayson wrote: »

I bet a panel of medical experts had never ever considered that. This is the kind of knowledge that the entire medical profession is missing and it's the reason why you're far better at making these decisions than experts.

Actually there are serious concerns within medical science over the last few years over dubious scientific "research" being taken as medical fact. The Lancet has noted it more than once in editorials. Never mind that medical science is not static(which is good, that's how science works), it's not immune to social, financial and political influence and "fashions" and there are plenty of examples of medical science and experts getting it partially or wholly wrong for quite long periods of time. EG operations for glue ear, electroshock therapy, lobotomy, routine tonsillectomies and routine circumcision have all come and gone with the full support of medical experts and medical science. Indeed one can predict going by age group or culture which of those procedures you're likely to have had. This kinda thing didn't magically stop because it's the present day, though every generation tends to think that.

Consider this: Transexuality was down as a mental illness until how recently? And experts were pretty sure of that diagnosis. Often the same ones who agree with the new definitions. Just because a position has changed in a way that some may find more acceptable doesn't mean it's correct and it didn't mean it was correct in the past.

Malayalam wrote: »

This is just anti-science post-modern malarkey. There is no ''truth'', there is just your feelings about things. :rolleyes: It does not make for more broad minded children, it just makes for idiocy.
Edit - elementary school students are 6-13 years old

Note how they drop in the emotive stuff about how kids just "get it". Let's get real here for a moment and set aside this disneyfication of childhood of the last century, kids get feck all about this stuff at that age, they base the reality of the world on how it's presented by their culture and parents. Those same kids if they were from 1950's Ireland would "get it" in a less palatable way for the poster authors.

Malayalam · 08-07-2018 01:36PM

Wibbs wrote: »

EG operations for glue ear, electroshock therapy, lobotomy, routine tonsillectomies and routine circumcision have all come and gone with the full support of medical experts and medical science.

Good clear uncontroversial examples. thanks Wibbs. There are also some studies showing bad side effects for blockers given many years ago for precocious puberty eg bone density problems.

Grayson · 08-07-2018 01:39PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually there are serious concerns within medical science over the last few years over dubious scientific "research" being taken as medical fact. The Lancet has noted it more than once in editorials. Never mind that medical science is not static(which is good, that's how science works), it's not immune to social, financial and political influence and "fashions" and there are plenty of examples of medical science and experts getting it partially or wholly wrong for quite long periods of time. EG operations for glue ear, electroshock therapy, lobotomy, routine tonsillectomies and routine circumcision have all come and gone with the full support of medical experts and medical science. Indeed one can predict going by age group or culture which of those procedures you're likely to have had. This kinda thing didn't magically stop because it's the present day, though every generation tends to think that.

Consider this: Transexuality was down as a mental illness until how recently? And experts were pretty sure of that diagnosis. Often the same ones who agree with the new definitions. Just because a position has changed in a way that some may find more acceptable doesn't mean it's correct and it didn't mean it was correct in the past.

Note how they drop in the emotive stuff about how kids just "get it". Let's get real here for a moment and set aside this disneyfication of childhood of the last century, kids get feck all about this stuff at that age, they base the reality of the world on how it's presented by their culture and parents. Those same kids if they were from 1950's Ireland would "get it" in a less palatable way for the poster authors.

But none of that changes the fact that medical experts know a heel of a lot more than you or me. Sure you can point at some conflicting studies but that just shows disagreement about a few particular points, it doesn't disprove the vast majority of evidence along with the overwhelming experience of trans people. Now if you want to we can take the disputed study you're referring to and we can use that to reject all studies in this area and say that the experts here know nothing of value, but that's kinda getting into the area of conspiracies and denying science.

I stand by my position that decisions about this are best left to people who have extensive knowledge and experience and that any knowledge posters here have, including me, is extremely limited.

The Bishop Basher · 08-07-2018 01:53PM

Like many here I couldn’t give a monkeys what gender you want to call yourself as long as you don’t..

1) Expect me to deny scientific fact
2) Require me to change my behavior

Trans people form less then .5% of the population. We live in a very straight and binary world. Everyone should be accommodated and treated equally to a point but there will always be minority groups who feel hard done by..

Life’s not fair.

Taytoland · 08-07-2018 01:57PM

Sick and tired of hearing about LGBT all the time, daily on TV or radio etc, propaganda which can be smelled a mile off.

Grayson · 08-07-2018 02:09PM

Taytoland wrote: »

Sick and tired of hearing about LGBT all the time, daily on TV or radio etc, propaganda which can be smelled a mile off.

Would you be in favor of a Russian styled law which would ban it?

The strange thing is that I don't hear this stuff all day long. And when I do it doesn't bother me. Maybe you should ask why it bothers you.

An_Toirpin · 08-07-2018 02:13PM

Extraordinary how far FG have gone down the road of the science-denying road of progressive transism.

An_Toirpin · 08-07-2018 02:17PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No

You seem to misunderstand. Legal transition is self declared here in Ireland. Medical transition would require much more than self declared consent.

Exactly. We already have a law that gives into to this lunacy.

Wibbs · 08-07-2018 02:21PM

Grayson wrote: »

But none of that changes the fact that medical experts know a heel of a lot more than you or me. Sure you can point at some conflicting studies but that just shows disagreement about a few particular points, it doesn't disprove the vast majority of evidence along with the overwhelming experience of trans people.

The WHO had being trans as a mental disorder as late as 2016. So not exactly decades ago. And as I said many of the same experts who were OK with it being described as such are now not OK with it and the "vast majority of evidence" supported both positions until quite recently. Personally I wouldn't have labeled it a mental illness, though could see why it was and many trans people present with mental illnesses because of their condition. I would label it a gender condition, with a side order of dysmorphia.

An_Toirpin · 08-07-2018 02:21PM

Grayson wrote: »

Would you be in favor of a Russian styled law which would ban it?

The strange thing is that I don't hear this stuff all day long. And when I do it doesn't bother me. Maybe you should ask why it bothers you.

Mostly people here espouse liberalism. You should be able to say and do what you want and if you want to alter your body in profound ways as an adult so be it. But that should not apply to children and all your official records must label your actual biological sex. Although people can refer to you by your new 'sex', one cannot demand the privilages that a certain sex provides.

Annasopra · 08-07-2018 02:25PM

wexie wrote: »

That is entirely possible

I presume that's the case everywhere no?

Like I said it's entirely possible I'm misinformed but it was my understanding Ireland is still quite conservative in these matters?

No. Not at all. Ireland is considered a world leader and extremely liberal in these matters. In many countries trans people cant go through legal recognition until they have had numerous medical declarations. In many liberal countries they have forced sterilisation before legal recognition.

wexie · 08-07-2018 02:28PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

In many liberal countries they have forced sterilisation before legal recognition.

Did you mean to write liberal there?

Like before it's entirely possible I misunderstand but I don't see how liberal and forced anything really go hand in hand?

Thanks by the way for replying.

Taytoland · 08-07-2018 02:30PM

Grayson wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Sick and tired of hearing about LGBT all the time, daily on TV or radio etc, propaganda which can be smelled a mile off.

Would you be in favor of a Russian styled law which would ban it?

The strange thing is that I don't hear this stuff all day long. And when I do it doesn't bother me. Maybe you should ask why it bothers you.

You would think we live in Russia or something with the way you hear LGBT all the time as if they are up against huge discrimination laws. It's probably the best place or places to live for gay people in Ireland or the UK right now for multiple reasons. Yet you would never know it. I just think a lot of people are sick of hearing about it. It's like life would be boring if they didn't have something to whine about.

Annasopra · 08-07-2018 02:30PM

wexie wrote: »

Did you mean to write liberal there?

Like before it's entirely possible I misunderstand but I don't see how liberal and forced anything really go hand in hand?

Yes. Sweden had forced sterilisation until this year.

HappyAsLarE · 08-07-2018 02:38PM

Rennaws wrote: »

Like many here I couldn’t give a monkeys what gender you want to call yourself as long as you don’t..

1) Expect me to deny scientific fact
2) Require me to change my behavior

Trans people form less then .5% of the population. We live in a very straight and binary world. Everyone should be accommodated and treated equally to a point but there will always be minority groups who feel hard done by..

Life’s not fair.

Point 2) above. Minority groups these days want OTHERS to bend to their will, rather than accepting the tradegy of life and carrying their cross with honour. It’s all your fault, there is no personal responsibility.

wexie · 08-07-2018 02:43PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes. Sweden had forced sterilisation until this year.

wow...

I don't even know what to say to that to be honest, sounds pretty barbaric.

Do you know what the reasoning behind this was? Were there any medical reasons or was it more a case of 'well you can't have both?'

Annasopra · 08-07-2018 03:15PM

wexie wrote: »

wow...

I don't even know what to say to that to be honest, sounds pretty barbaric.

Do you know what the reasoning behind this was? Were there any medical reasons or was it more a case of 'well you can't have both?'

When gender identity first became a thing in the 70s Sweden was one of the first countries in the world to legislate for legal sex change. Back then being transgender was viewed very very differently and very much internationally viewed as a mental illness - forced sterilisation was still broadly acceptable in the 70s for all sorts of groups having come from the eugenics movement and carried out regularly on women, people with disabilities, people with intersex conditions and trans identities.

I think there was also some sort of moral judgement that trans people couldnt really be parents.

Only in the last 2 or 3 years forced sterilisation is being banned Europewide and in other places like Japan.

Wibbs · 08-07-2018 03:20PM

wexie wrote: »

wow...

I don't even know what to say to that to be honest, sounds pretty barbaric.

For all the land of openness and liberalism stuff Sweden is described as today they had quite the dubious record on a few matters. If anything one might argue that their current status as the right on Tumblr of nations is down to an overcompensation for their past.

Sweden bought into the same eugenics type thinking that dodgy regimes like the Nazis and Communists did. It wasn't just trans people who were sterilised. Those considered mentally ill, the disabled, or feeble of mind, or even antisocial types were sterilised, lest this got passed on to the next generation. Tens of thousands were treated in this way. Mostly voluntarily, though the jury's out on how that was measured. Transexuals were the last group that had this as a mandatory requirement before transition(though it wasn't up to last year, 2010 IIRC). They were force sterilising the other groups of people into the late 70's. Next time you see an ABBA video, think on that for a moment. Not exactly aeons ago. China and Russia still have some of these programmes in place.

Wibbs · 08-07-2018 03:22PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Only in the last 2 or 3 years forced sterilisation is being banned Europewide.

Which suggests it was actively in place before that time in Europe. Not so. Post war it was very much frowned upon. The only countries that used it to any degree were Switzerland and Sweden.

wexie · 08-07-2018 03:29PM

I knew about a some of the forced sterilization programs, I think Canada only stopped some of their programs in the 80's or so.
Just didn't think that it would have been up till so recently in what I would consider to be somewhat more enlightened countries.

Amalgam · 08-07-2018 03:42PM

It is so strange seeing the likes of Germaine Greer and Camille Paglia becoming Pariahs for holding opinions that many people have internally, but dare not vocalise..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B8Q6D4a6TM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8BRdwgPChQ

I have been with two people who went from male to female and the internal dialogue and issues that one of those people had seemed to stem from dysfunctional parents, acrimonious divorce in childhood.

I felt myself that therapy might help, rather than gender realignement. There's just a mad rush to 'enable' people without a pause and a think.

Malayalam · 08-07-2018 04:04PM

Sterilisation is the use of techniques - surgical or medical - that leaves a human unable to reproduce.

It is barbaric that people have been forced at any time to be sterilised against their will or knowledge.

Pubertal suppression with gonadotropin releasing agonists (GnRH-a) not only prevents development of potentially distressing secondary sex characteristics but also suspends germ cell maturation. Puberty appears to progress normally after discontinuation. However, many transgender individuals initiate gender-affirming hormone therapy concurrently with pubertal suppression, and thus, germ cells never fully mature. This highlights the need for discussion of fertility options before initiating GnRH-a treatment.

Gender-affirming hormones produce impairments in gonadal histology that can cause infertility. Estrogen use by transgender women results in impaired spermatogenesis and an absence of Leydig cells in the testis. Testosterone use by transgender men causes ovarian stromal hyperplasia and follicular atresia. Gonadal effects of gender-affirming hormones are thought to be at least partially reversible. For example, pregnancy has been reported in transgender men who have previously used testosterone. Thresholds have not been established for the amount and duration of exogenous testosterone or estrogen exposure necessary to have a permanent negative effect on fertility.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5685253/

Granted, gender affirmation hormones - as far as I know - have moved into the area of adult medical treatment. And I would like to keep it to children. Though cross sex hormones post puberty blockers can be administered in places such as the Netherlands from age 16 (which I see as still very young - it is not old enough to vote or drive or drink).
From what I can see as a lay person the jury is still out on whether or not puberty blockers have a long term affect on fertility, and whether or not full reversal is possible universally. There has simply not been enough rigorous investigation of these hormones given to children. It may be that the rush to childhood hormones in trans-identifying children may - in a percentage - result in sterilsation or at least seriously compromised fertility.

FurBabyMomma · 08-07-2018 04:10PM

Germaine Greer is rightly a pariah these days since she has spouted some ludicrous rubbish in a desperate attempt at becoming relevant again. Since she is now claiming that rape is really no big deal, most reasonable people don't give a crap about what she says about anything anymore.

Annasopra · 08-07-2018 04:26PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Which suggests it was actively in place before that time in Europe. Not so. Post war it was very much frowned upon. The only countries that used it to any degree were Switzerland and Sweden.

Eh France, Finland, Greece and many other Eastern European countries used it for trans people too.

How Soon Is Now · 08-07-2018 04:47PM

Glad a certain someone isn't getting the kind of attention they grave on boards.

I do think a lot of people are getting ****ing sick of being talked down to on issues "we don't understand" though.

wexie · 08-07-2018 04:50PM

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

I do think a lot of people are getting ****ing sick of being talked down to on issues "we don't understand" though.

To be honest I don't mind so much being told I don't understand something. But I do normally like it to be followed up with an effort to help me understand.

ItAintMeBabe · 08-07-2018 04:52PM

Rennaws wrote: »

Like many here I couldn’t give a monkeys what gender you want to call yourself as long as you don’t..

1) Expect me to deny scientific fact
2) Require me to change my behavior

Trans people form less then .5% of the population. We live in a very straight and binary world. Everyone should be accommodated and treated equally to a point but there will always be minority groups who feel hard done by..

Life’s not fair.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, I have very strong views on the subject but didn't feel my input was needed, but I can't not reply to this.

This is a sentence I hear so frequently, but never understand. It always reminds me of when people say "I'm not racist, but......", and 99.9% of the time, it's followed by an obviously racist statement.

So please, what is the "point" at which everybody/minorities should no longer be accommodated and treated equally?

This is a genuine question.

How Soon Is Now · 08-07-2018 04:53PM

wexie wrote: »

To be honest I don't mind so much being told I don't understand something. But I do normally like it to be followed up with an effort to help me understand.

Ya well that's a given with pretentious people. Feeling the need to "educate" us.

Amalgam · 08-07-2018 04:55PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Eh France, Finland, Greece and many other Eastern European countries used it for trans people too.

France used it for mental health issues, if a person was assessed as being, at a clinical level, 'debile' (Collins Dictionary), they might be a candidate for sterilisation. Right up to the 1970s, early 80s.

Peak Trans

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