Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

bk · 27-06-2018 11:24am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

One problem with the existing proposal is that it doesn't really open up very much development land. This proposal could potentially serve a lot of development land to the west.

I agree with most of what you said, but the above isn't really true. Cherrywood SDZ and the nearby areas are some of the most prime development land in the whole city.

Sure, strictly speaking the Metrolink won't go as far as Cheerywood, but that is not really true as the Metro upgrade of the green line allows for people from these areas to transfer on at Sandyford.

The West will be benefitting from the DART Expansion plan that will also help open up large areas to the West.

antoinolachtnai · 27-06-2018 11:28am

bk wrote: »

I agree with most of what you said, but the above isn't really true. Cherrywood SDZ and the nearby areas are some of the most prime development land in the whole city.

Sure, strictly speaking the Metrolink won't go as far as Cheerywood, but that is not really true as the Metro upgrade of the green line allows for people from these areas to transfer on at Sandyford.

The West will be benefitting from the DART Expansion plan that will also help open up large areas to the West.

Well, Cherrywood was already opened up. It will clearly benefit from Metro of course. But by 2027 it will not be new development.

DART + MetroLink will certainly greatly help some land, but it isn't opening up land for the first time.

bk · 27-06-2018 11:39am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, Cherrywood was already opened up. It will clearly benefit from Metro of course. But by 2027 it will not be new development.

DART + MetroLink will certainly greatly help some land, but it isn't opening up land for the first time.

Cheerywood is only at starting construction. 1,200+ homes at the moment. But the plan is up to 10,000 homes over the next ten years.

20,000+ extra people trying to get on Luas will leave people standing at platforms as full trams drive by from Sandyford in. This is why the green line needs upgrading.

BTW this is just the SDZ, there is lots of similar land nearby which will likely be similarly zoned once Cherrywood SDZ is completed. The planners are wisely trying to focus high density development on certain areas, rather then open it all up and risk low density development.

Their is actually very little development land along this proposed SW line, going SW is more about serving already developed areas that currently have poor bus journey times and high congestion, rather then opening up new land.

marno21 · 27-06-2018 11:49am

Here is what the NTA propose firstly for the corridor frequently talked about here that Metrolink should be rerouted to serve:

NTA wrote:

4.2.5 Corridor E – N81 Settlements – South Tallaght – Rathfarnham – to Dublin
City Centre
Corridor E is made up of generally suburban residential development and is not defined on the basis of a
major transport route, road or public transport service. It presents a challenge in that respect as it is more
difficult to serve with high capacity public transport than other corridors, which are defined by multi-lane
roads and / or dual carriageways, and contain existing or proposed rail lines.
As limited growth in radial trips along Corridor E outside of the Metropolitan Area is anticipated, it is not
proposed to implement significant public transport infrastructure improvements. Bus capacity will be
increased to meet demand along the N81.
For the Metropolitan parts of this corridor, the performance of the Rathfarnham Quality Bus Corridor is
poor relative to others and requires enhancement. As such, a number of options, including Light Rail,
have been examined. However, due to the land use constraints in the corridor and owing to the pressure
on the existing road network, a Luas line was not deemed feasible. Instead, the emerging solution
comprises a BRT to Tallaght via Rathfarnham and Terenure. This will result in a significant increase in
capacity and reliability compared to existing public transport services and will balance public transport
requirements with those of the private car. The BRT will be supplemented by a core radial bus corridor
between Rathfarnham, Rathmines and the City Centre.
Two new roads are to be built within this corridor, a South Tallaght link road from Oldcourt Road to
Kiltipper Road, and a public transport bridge over the Dodder to the east of Tallaght from Firhouse Road
to the N81 to address localised access and congestion issues. Other road schemes and upgrades will
also be implemented, in line with the principles for road development set out in Chapter 5.

and here is the NTA's light rail (light rail is Luas + Metro) plan for 2016-2035:

NTA wrote:

i New Metro North - light rail link from the south city centre to Swords and serving Dublin Airport,
operating in tunnel under Dublin City Centre, and providing a high frequency, high capacity service;
i Green Line Capacity Enhancement - capacity enhancements to the Luas Green Line between St.
Stephen’s Green and Bride’s Glen (in advance of Metro South) allowing longer and higher capacity
trams to be brought into service on this line;
i Metro South - Luas Green Line Capacity Upgrade from the south city centre to Bride’s Glen,
completing a full north-south high-capacity high-frequency cross-city rail corridor through the central
spine of the Metropolitan Area;
i Luas Cross City connecting St. Stephen’s Green to Broombridge and intersecting with the Red Line
at Abbey Street;
i Extension of Luas Green Line to Bray, providing a second rail alternative to this large town,
connecting to the city centre and major destinations along the corridor at Cherrywood, Sandyford
and Dundrum;
i Extension of Luas Cross City to Finglas, utilising the new Luas Cross City line to provide a light rail
link to the Finglas area;
i Luas to Lucan, providing a high capacity link into the centre of Lucan’s large residential areas to the
south of the N4 national road, and connecting to the city centre; and
i Luas Red Line extension to Poolbeg, linking the north Docklands to this new development area
south of the Liffey

Eamon Ryan can crow all he wants. The NTA don't believe there is merit for a Metro in this area from 2016-2035, and certainly not ahead of Swords-Sandyford.

tom1ie · 27-06-2018 12:08pm

marno21 wrote: »

Here is what the NTA propose firstly for the corridor frequently talked about here that Metrolink should be rerouted to serve:

and here is the NTA's light rail (light rail is Luas + Metro) plan for 2016-2035:

Eamon Ryan can crow all he wants. The NTA don't believe there is merit for a Metro in this area from 2016-2035, and certainly not ahead of Swords-Sandyford.

Well the nta have got this wrong. What about development lands around stocking lane?
Kiltipper?
They won’t deliver the bus connects they envisage due to political ineptitude.
And Marno..... your allowed call it metro 2!

LXFlyer · 27-06-2018 12:17pm

marno21 wrote: »

Here is what the NTA propose firstly for the corridor frequently talked about here that Metrolink should be rerouted to serve:

and here is the NTA's light rail (light rail is Luas + Metro) plan for 2016-2035:

Eamon Ryan can crow all he wants. The NTA don't believe there is merit for a Metro in this area from 2016-2035, and certainly not ahead of Swords-Sandyford.

The problem is Marno that the NTA in saying that is assuming BusConnects will happen in south central Dublin as per their plan.

I don’t think it will be delivered in anything like what they suggest. It’s a political timebomb.

Do you think that closing Templeogue Rd and Kimmage Rd lower to general traffic, along with the CPO activity that is suggested, will actually happen in reality and to such an extent to be able to deliver the necessary improvement in bus speeds?

I really don’t as I think it will be bogged down in the courts for years and still won’t deliver real improvements.

When you look at it from a practical (and political) perspective that tends to change your outlook!

bk · 27-06-2018 12:34pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Well the nta have got this wrong. What about development lands around stocking lane?
Kiltipper?

Your outside the M50 now!

That is a long way to go and the cost is going to increase greatly as a result.

The advantage of Cheerywood, etc. is that the Luas is already there, it just needs a cheap upgrade to unlock the potential.

BTW not really that much space out towards Stocking Lane, you are hitting the Dublin Mountains and National Parks there pretty quickly. Plus a lot of the land is golf courses and we have yet to tackle the nettle of turning Golf courses into developments. If you though Na Fianna was bad, wait until you try that one!

The DART Expansion plans will open up far more development land to the West then this would.

Sam Russell · 27-06-2018 12:39pm

Also, Metrolink will open land north of Swords, and around the airport, and Donabate if it gets extended to there.

tom1ie · 27-06-2018 12:46pm

bk wrote: »

Your outside the M50 now!

That is a long way to go and the cost is going to increase greatly as a result.

The advantage of Cheerywood, etc. is that the Luas is already there, it just needs a cheap upgrade to unlock the potential.

BTW not really that much space out towards Stocking Lane, you are hitting the Dublin Mountains and National Parks there pretty quickly. Plus a lot of the land is golf courses and we have yet to tackle the nettle of turning Golf courses into developments. If you though Na Fianna was bad, wait until you try that one!

The DART Expansion plans will open up far more development land to the West then this would.

Yes I’m outside the m50 but people driving from these areas contribute to traffic within the m50. If traffic within the m50 is dealt with by metro 2 or bus connects that will be an incentive for people in firhouse etc to get on the bus to a metro station.
By the way I’m not arguing against metrolink, I’m just arguing against where the tie in on the ss should occur. I think for the money (600 mill as opposed to 1 bill) windy arbour presents extra benefits to what the existing flawed plans give.
Unless a station in rathmines can be included if the tie in occurs at beechwood, which I don’t think is possible.

tom1ie · 27-06-2018 12:47pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Also, Metrolink will open land north of Swords, and around the airport, and Donabate if it gets extended to there.

Agreed and I have never argued against any of that. Please see my previous post.

marno21 · 27-06-2018 12:48pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Well the nta have got this wrong. What about development lands around stocking lane?
Kiltipper?
They won’t deliver the bus connects they envisage due to political ineptitude.
And Marno..... your allowed call it metro 2!

LXFlyer wrote: »

The problem is Marno that the NTA in saying that is assuming BusConnects will happen in south central Dublin as per their plan.

I don’t think it will be delivered in anything like what they suggest. It’s a political timebomb.

Do you think that closing Templeogue Rd and Kimmage Rd lower to general traffic, along with the CPO activity that is suggested, will actually happen in reality and to such an extent to be able to deliver the necessary improvement in bus speeds?

I really don’t as I think it will be bogged down in the courts for years and still won’t deliver real improvements.

When you look at it from a practical (and political) perspective that tends to change your outlook!

I accept both your points. From the NTA's point of view, they are first of all going to try with BusConnects as they believe that it'll be appropriate for the area involved. The issue with the south west corridor is that it's not very dense in population terms, and a Metro can only serve one spine through an area which isn't ideal if you have relatively low density. You then need feeder buses which brings us back to the same issues that will plague BusConnects.

There's a deeper issue here as well and it's reflected in the political response to these projects, we've seen it with Metrolink and now BusConnects. John Lahart has come out widely in favour of BusConnects, for example, because it stands to benefit a lot of people in his constituency that suffer from extremely poor PT performance in Dublin South West. However, to get this built, there will be a lot of disquiet in Dublin Bay South. There will be issues closer to the city as these are the people who will be affected whereas it's people further out who stand to benefit. We are seeing the same in Ranelagh and Glasnevin with the Metro.

One of the main issues with the Dublin SW area is that when you look at public transport demand when trying to find a solution for the area, it's best served by bus. It'll be very hard to push a Metro through in this area for some time because the cost:benefit analysis will be difficult at best due to the primary reason for a Metro being the lack of road space for quality bus corridors. We'll have to see how Metrolink goes before this one goes anywhere.

Another issue is that the NTA package of improvements for Dublin between now and 2027 is €7bn+. There simply isn't the money for any more metros in that period, between financial and engineering resources.

tom1ie · 27-06-2018 12:59pm

marno21 wrote: »

I accept both your points. From the NTA's point of view, they are first of all going to try with BusConnects as they believe that it'll be appropriate for the area involved. The issue with the south west corridor is that it's not very dense in population terms, and a Metro can only serve one spine through an area which isn't ideal if you have relatively low density. You then need feeder buses which brings us back to the same issues that will plague BusConnects.

There's a deeper issue here as well and it's reflected in the political response to these projects, we've seen it with Metrolink and now BusConnects. John Lahart has come out widely in favour of BusConnects, for example, because it stands to benefit a lot of people in his constituency that suffer from extremely poor PT performance in Dublin South West. However, to get this built, there will be a lot of disquiet in Dublin Bay South. There will be issues closer to the city as these are the people who will be affected whereas it's people further out who stand to benefit. We are seeing the same in Ranelagh and Glasnevin with the Metro.

One of the main issues with the Dublin SW area is that when you look at public transport demand when trying to find a solution for the area, it's best served by bus. It'll be very hard to push a Metro through in this area for some time because the cost:benefit analysis will be difficult at best due to the primary reason for a Metro being the lack of road space for quality bus corridors. We'll have to see how Metrolink goes before this one goes anywhere.

Another issue is that the NTA package of improvements for Dublin between now and 2027 is €7bn+. There simply isn't the money for any more metros in that period, between financial and engineering resources.

That’s fair enough.
But what about a metrolink station in rathmines with the gl tie in further south. Surely this money should be sourced as it is a missed opportunity for a mid density area, which rathmines is, and which would have large knock on effects for Dublin sw’s chronic traffic.

LXFlyer · 27-06-2018 1:03pm

marno21 wrote: »

I accept both your points. From the NTA's point of view, they are first of all going to try with BusConnects as they believe that it'll be appropriate for the area involved. The issue with the south west corridor is that it's not very dense in population terms, and a Metro can only serve one spine through an area which isn't ideal if you have relatively low density. You then need feeder buses which brings us back to the same issues that will plague BusConnects.

There's a deeper issue here as well and it's reflected in the political response to these projects, we've seen it with Metrolink and now BusConnects. John Lahart has come out widely in favour of BusConnects, for example, because it stands to benefit a lot of people in his constituency that suffer from extremely poor PT performance in Dublin South West. However, to get this built, there will be a lot of disquiet in Dublin Bay South. There will be issues closer to the city as these are the people who will be affected whereas it's people further out who stand to benefit. We are seeing the same in Ranelagh and Glasnevin with the Metro.

One of the main issues with the Dublin SW area is that when you look at public transport demand when trying to find a solution for the area, it's best served by bus. It'll be very hard to push a Metro through in this area for some time because the cost:benefit analysis will be difficult at best due to the primary reason for a Metro being the lack of road space for quality bus corridors. We'll have to see how Metrolink goes before this one goes anywhere.

Another issue is that the NTA package of improvements for Dublin between now and 2027 is €7bn+. There simply isn't the money for any more metros in that period, between financial and engineering resources.

I appreciate your comments Marno.

But being honest, the realistic outcome of that analysis means that people in south central Dublin are going to be screwed from a PT perspective for years to come.

IE 222 · 27-06-2018 1:29pm

marno21 wrote: »

Another issue is that the NTA package of improvements for Dublin between now and 2027 is €7bn+. There simply isn't the money for any more metros in that period, between financial and engineering resources.

€7bn is the minimum cost it will likely go over €10bn realistically.

I still find it hard to believe people are supportive of spending so much money on a few extra buses, upgrading current and adding some new bus lanes and a Metro where roughly 50% of it is already in use with Luas.

When the normal Joe soap relises their going to have to change buses 2 or 3 times each time they will be straight back to their car.

Dats me · 27-06-2018 7:28pm

IE 222 wrote: »

€7bn is the minimum cost it will likely go over €10bn realistically.

I still find it hard to believe people are supportive of spending so much money on a few extra buses, upgrading current and adding some new bus lanes and a Metro where roughly 50% of it is already in use with Luas.

When the normal Joe soap relises their going to have to change buses 2 or 3 times each time they will be straight back to their car.

As long as the transport is reliable I don't think people will mind changing. changing buses is a pain because it's a lottery whether the bloody yoke will come or not.

If you know there'll be a Metro in 90 seconds it's a much smaller deal

Qrt · 27-06-2018 7:35pm

Does anybody know off-hand which orbital route is the most frequent? I always regarded the 17a as pretty frequent but I'm not sure it it's the most frequent.

CatInABox · 27-06-2018 7:36pm

Dats me wrote: »

As long as the transport is reliable I don't think people will mind changing. changing buses is a pain because it's a lottery whether the bloody yoke will come or not.

If you know there'll be a Metro in 90 seconds it's a much smaller deal

I believe he's talking about BusConnects there.

LXFlyer · 27-06-2018 8:19pm

Qrt wrote: »

Does anybody know off-hand which orbital route is the most frequent? I always regarded the 17a as pretty frequent but I'm not sure it it's the most frequent.

The 17a is.

None of the southside routes changed under Network Direct.

Bray Head · 28-06-2018 8:33am

bk wrote: »

Frankfurt's Metro population is 5.6 million people.

Frankfurt is on a very different scale in terms of both wealth and population. It would be a foolish comparison.

Not really. On a regional basis Ireland Southern and East has a GVA per person of €44,100. Darmstadt - the region Frankfurt is part of - is €44,800. Both are adjusted for adjusted for comparative prices. So basically the economic activity in the region each city is part of is quite similar.

Compared to Dublin, what Frankfurt has is a big legacy of public transport infrastructure and a regional government that is able to lay claim to a greater share of the economic activity there.

tom1ie · 28-06-2018 12:26pm

marno21 wrote: »

I accept both your points. From the NTA's point of view, they are first of all going to try with BusConnects as they believe that it'll be appropriate for the area involved. The issue with the south west corridor is that it's not very dense in population terms, and a Metro can only serve one spine through an area which isn't ideal if you have relatively low density. You then need feeder buses which brings us back to the same issues that will plague BusConnects.

There's a deeper issue here as well and it's reflected in the political response to these projects, we've seen it with Metrolink and now BusConnects. John Lahart has come out widely in favour of BusConnects, for example, because it stands to benefit a lot of people in his constituency that suffer from extremely poor PT performance in Dublin South West. However, to get this built, there will be a lot of disquiet in Dublin Bay South. There will be issues closer to the city as these are the people who will be affected whereas it's people further out who stand to benefit. We are seeing the same in Ranelagh and Glasnevin with the Metro.

One of the main issues with the Dublin SW area is that when you look at public transport demand when trying to find a solution for the area, it's best served by bus. It'll be very hard to push a Metro through in this area for some time because the cost:benefit analysis will be difficult at best due to the primary reason for a Metro being the lack of road space for quality bus corridors. We'll have to see how Metrolink goes before this one goes anywhere.

Another issue is that the NTA package of improvements for Dublin between now and 2027 is €7bn+. There simply isn't the money for any more metros in that period, between financial and engineering resources.

Just thinking about this Marno has made me realize something. You say the nta are going to try bus connects first for the sw route. Realistically bus connects won’t be delivered in its ideal form and will become a watered down excuse for qbc’s that’ll be interrupted along the radial routes in the sw, that won’t make any difference to journey times all the while big money is spent on the cpo’s that do eventually get done.
So with that in mind are the people of sw Dublin then going to go back to the nta and say bus connects doesn’t work we want metro2 sent out our way at a cost of whatever billion. Sure never mind the money you’ve just spent on bus connects.

I don’t think that’s going to go down too well is it?

It’d be far easier to have the green line upgraded after the metro is sent out to rathfarnham as the green line is already in situ.
Eamon Ryan is dead right in what he’s doing at the moment cause he can see if the metro is not sent out to rathfarnham now, it won’t be in the next 40 years as
Bus connects will try, and fail to deliver pt for the sw,
Dart underground will get preference,
The nw will probably get preference over the sw for a metro, because money will have already been spent on a bus connects route in the sw.

As for the cba for going down this route as opposed to connecting to the gl, well all I can say is reliable, frequent pt should be delivered to areas that do not already have this available. At the moment the green line has capacity, and will be gaining more capacity via longer trams. There are also plans for a radial bus connects route to serve cherrywood which adds capacity also (route 13 in the bus connects plan). This brt route will be much easier to implement than what we will end up in the sw.

The people along the green line and the people in the next 5-10 years who will live along the green line will have access to two high frequency high capacity pt options, the green line Luas and route 13 bus connects.
The people of the sw will have access to nothing.
This hardly seems fair.

LeinsterDub · 28-06-2018 12:45pm

webwayz wrote: »

The Metro North (MetroLink) should link with the Rail Line - so airport traffic can use the rail and metro to get to the airport from drogheda, dundalk, newry and belfast! also Dart users from the extension to balbriggan and lusk can get the metro to the airport, or DCU or mater hospital etc. Connectivity!

It's linking with Tara

bk · 28-06-2018 1:03pm

tom1ie, that is all based on the idea that BusConnects won't go through. While there will certainly be objections, all major projects have them, that doesn't mean those objections will be successful.

There were lots of objections to pretty much every motorway built throughout the country, there were objections to the M50 and then it's widening, there were objections to the port tunnel, there were objections to the street widening in Drumcondra for buses, there were objections to every Luas line and extension.

And yet, in the end, they all still got done, so while BusConnects will certainly be tough, I wouldn't be so pessimistic.

The other issue, is that you seem to think a SW tunnel won't face similar objections. At the moment people to the SW might say they would like a Metro and I'm sure they are. But if you actually start seriously planning for it, showing the many homes that will need to be CPO'd to build stations and people realise how much traffic disruption there will be for 3 to 6 years as trucks go to and from these station sites through these already highly congested streets, you will have just as many objections to a SW tunnel.

All major plans face objections, it is just the reality of them.

Now I think a SW tunnel should still be eventually done and such objections faced down. But so should the objections to BusConnects, Metrolink and the Green line tie-in, etc.

What we need to do is learn to be able to face down such objections and get on with these sort of projects. If we don't then a SW tunnel is just as unlikely to go through as BusConnects, etc.

bk · 28-06-2018 1:04pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's linking with Tara

And also at a new station at Whitworth Road. Metrolink looks to be very well connected with rail.

Qrt · 28-06-2018 1:11pm

bk wrote: »

And also at a new station at Whitworth Road. Metrolink looks to be very well connected with rail.

To be fair, I can't imagine many going from Balbriggan all the way to Tara to get to the airport, or all the way to Connolly, changing trains to Glasnevin (or Whitworth whatever it's called these days) and then another trip to the airport. Building an extension to the northern DART line should be planned, for the future anyway.

Sam Russell · 28-06-2018 1:15pm

bk wrote: »

And also at a new station at Whitworth Road. Metrolink looks to be very well connected with rail.

And a 5km across mostly green fields would connect it to Donabate. 7 km across open fields would connect it to Clongriffin. [from the Airport in this case]

Once building has started, I think these might be considered. The Airport is crucial to get right.

CatInABox · 28-06-2018 1:16pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's linking with Tara

Tara, and also at the Whitworth Road Station. Connectivity!

EDIT: Man, I'm slowing at reading my tabs.

bk · 28-06-2018 1:42pm

Qrt wrote: »

To be fair, I can't imagine many going from Balbriggan all the way to Tara to get to the airport, or all the way to Connolly, changing trains to Glasnevin (or Whitworth whatever it's called these days) and then another trip to the airport. Building an extension to the northern DART line should be planned, for the future anyway.

Sam Russell wrote: »

And a 5km across mostly green fields would connect it to Donabate. 7 km across open fields would connect it to Clongriffin. [from the Airport in this case]

Once building has started, I think these might be considered. The Airport is crucial to get right.

I agree completely. Land for a route should be reserved now and building started when Metrolink is nearing completion.

marno21 · 28-06-2018 1:47pm

bk wrote: »

And also at a new station at Whitworth Road. Metrolink looks to be very well connected with rail.

The NTA & TII mentioned at an Oireachtas committee that integration with the heavy rail network and the Luas is one of the main components of the Metrolink scheme. It has excellent integration with the network

There was an awful push to get Metro North (old scheme) to go ahead over the last few years but this scheme is far superior in terms of integration. Building Metro North now would provide no integration with 3 rail lines. MN was heavily reliant on DART Underground going ahead for connectivity

roadmaster · 28-06-2018 1:50pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

And a 5km across mostly green fields would connect it to Donabate. 7 km across open fields would connect it to Clongriffin. [from the Airport in this case]

Once building has started, I think these might be considered. The Airport is crucial to get right.

Put in the Dart line and new stations you also open up a major land bank with good public transport

Sam Russell · 28-06-2018 2:00pm

bk wrote: »

I agree completely. Land for a route should be reserved now and building started when Metrolink is nearing completion.

That should be done anyway.

tom1ie · 28-06-2018 3:12pm

bk wrote: »

tom1ie, that is all based on the idea that BusConnects won't go through. While there will certainly be objections, all major projects have them, that doesn't mean those objections will be successful.

There were lots of objections to pretty much every motorway built throughout the country, there were objections to the M50 and then it's widening, there were objections to the port tunnel, there were objections to the street widening in Drumcondra for buses, there were objections to every Luas line and extension.

And yet, in the end, they all still got done, so while BusConnects will certainly be tough, I wouldn't be so pessimistic.

The other issue, is that you seem to think a SW tunnel won't face similar objections. At the moment people to the SW might say they would like a Metro and I'm sure they are. But if you actually start seriously planning for it, showing the many homes that will need to be CPO'd to build stations and people realise how much traffic disruption there will be for 3 to 6 years as trucks go to and from these station sites through these already highly congested streets, you will have just as many objections to a SW tunnel.

All major plans face objections, it is just the reality of them.

Now I think a SW tunnel should still be eventually done and such objections faced down. But so should the objections to BusConnects, Metrolink and the Green line tie-in, etc.

What we need to do is learn to be able to face down such objections and get on with these sort of projects. If we don't then a SW tunnel is just as unlikely to go through as BusConnects, etc.

I don’t agree. How can bus connects be delivered in the next 10 years when it’ll be dragged through the courts, with political backing from local politicians looking for a vote. What we’ll end up with is a crap watered down version, the very fact that you have eluded to in the bus connects forum.
What are we supposed to do wait for 10 years and at the end be happy with a crap version of brt?

A metro line on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. Stations can be moved and tbm portals can be moved to suit the situation at hand. Case in point na fianna.
How can a bus lane be moved if multiple objectors drag the project through the courts. That’s the difference.

Sam Russell · 28-06-2018 3:31pm

tom1ie wrote: »

I don’t agree. How can bus connects be delivered in the next 10 years when it’ll be dragged through the courts, with political backing from local politicians looking for a vote. What we’ll end up with is a crap watered down version, the very fact that you have eluded to in the bus connects forum.
What are we supposed to do wait for 10 years and at the end be happy with a crap version of brt?

A metro line on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. Stations can be moved and tbm portals can be moved to suit the situation at hand. Case in point na fianna.
How can a bus lane be moved if multiple objectors drag the project through the courts. That’s the difference.

Only at the planning stage.

We are not even at the planning stage with Metrolink, just at 'emerging preferred route' which will be tweaked and adjusted before they get to 'preferred route'. Remember Metro North got a long way before it was cancelled and went for a completely new design from scratch.

Busconnect has the advantage of being able to built in stages, and each corridor can be planned separately. Crap designs can be cancelled without effecting other parts of the project. That is not the way with Metrolink. Once it starts construction it has to keep going.

tom1ie · 28-06-2018 3:56pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Only at the planning stage.

We are not even at the planning stage with Metrolink, just at 'emerging preferred route' which will be tweaked and adjusted before they get to 'preferred route'. Remember Metro North got a long way before it was cancelled and went for a completely new design from scratch.

Busconnect has the advantage of being able to built in stages, and each corridor can be planned separately. Crap designs can be cancelled without effecting other parts of the project. That is not the way with Metrolink. Once it starts construction it has to keep going.

There is nothing stopping metrolink being built from swords to ssg. We know this route 100%. The only thing stopping the line from not going sw is the cba.
As I’ve previously said commuters are entitled to a proper pt service when they spend upwards of 90 mins on a bus regardless of the cba that route may provide.
Yes metrolink with gl tie in has a good cba and makes perfect sense.
Leaving vast swathes of Dublin with very poor bus services that bus connects will not improve (as it won’t be allowed to be built properly) is not acceptable.
Providing a proper pt service should take preference over improving an already good service regardless of cba.

bk · 28-06-2018 4:57pm

tom1ie wrote: »

A metro line on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. Stations can be moved and tbm portals can be moved to suit the situation at hand. Case in point na fianna.
How can a bus lane be moved if multiple objectors drag the project through the courts. That’s the difference.

While stations can be moved, in the end they have to go somewhere and the SW is such a mature developed area, then one way or the other it has to go through someones house and they will be objecting and one way or another the trucks need to get to and from those sites on those roads.

No matter where you put it, there will be objections full stop.

The process for objections, DCC, ABP and then the courts is exactly the same for BusConnects and Metros unfortunately. Metros aren't some easy solution for objections.

bk · 28-06-2018 5:08pm

Let me stress this point. Metrolink is going to require the CPO of 100 homes. That is 100 family homes which will be completely bought, people moving out and knocked down. And many of these homes are in very wealthy and well connected areas.

By comparison, BusConnects will just require the CPO of a small bit of some people gardens. They won't lose their homes or be forced to move out, just some land. So by comparison it is much less impact.

If BusConnects can't get through, then their is little hope for Metrolink.

Consonata · 28-06-2018 9:24pm

bk wrote: »

Let me stress this point. Metrolink is going to require the CPO of 100 homes. That is 100 family homes which will be completely bought, people moving out and knocked down. And many of these homes are in very wealthy and well connected areas.

By comparison, BusConnects will just require the CPO of a small bit of some people gardens. They won't lose their homes or be forced to move out, just some land. So by comparison it is much less impact.

If BusConnects can't get through, then their is little hope for Metrolink.

On what basis can a CPO be overturned in the courts? How is it that it can be determined by how well connected you are like.

tom1ie · 28-06-2018 9:51pm

bk wrote: »

Let me stress this point. Metrolink is going to require the CPO of 100 homes. That is 100 family homes which will be completely bought, people moving out and knocked down. And many of these homes are in very wealthy and well connected areas.

By comparison, BusConnects will just require the CPO of a small bit of some people gardens. They won't lose their homes or be forced to move out, just some land. So by comparison it is much less impact.

If BusConnects can't get through, then their is little hope for Metrolink.

Yes and if a sub standard bus connects is delivered to Dublin sw which has very little impact on journey times then metro 2 won’t be delivered as the nta will play the, well we’ve already put resources and funds into that corridor, card.
By contrast I’m pretty sure 6 or 7 sites that won’t involve major cpo activity, (unlike bus connects) for stations, can be found from ssg to knocklyon.

tom1ie · 28-06-2018 9:54pm

bk wrote: »

While stations can be moved, in the end they have to go somewhere and the SW is such a mature developed area, then one way or the other it has to go through someones house and they will be objecting and one way or another the trucks need to get to and from those sites on those roads.

No matter where you put it, there will be objections full stop.

The process for objections, DCC, ABP and then the courts is exactly the same for BusConnects and Metros unfortunately. Metros aren't some easy solution for objections.

Sw is such a mature developed area yet at the same time your saying sw dosent have the density to support a metro (maybe not you bk but a previous poster maybe). Spaces for stations will be easier to find on a sw route than the space required for the gl tie in especially at charlemount. Beechwood won’t be too easy nor milltown.

strassenwo!f · 28-06-2018 10:30pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Not really. On a regional basis Ireland Southern and East has a GVA per person of €44,100. Darmstadt - the region Frankfurt is part of - is €44,800. Both are adjusted for adjusted for comparative prices. So basically the economic activity in the region each city is part of is quite similar.

Frankfurt is part of the state of Hesse, as are the cities Darmstadt, Offenbach, Hanau and Wiesbaden (the capital of the state) on the S-Bahn trains which share a pretty natural centre in Frankfurt. Mainz, the capital of a neighbouring state, and on the same S-Bahn network, is also part of that bundle of cities.

Bray Head wrote: »

Compared to Dublin, what Frankfurt has is a big legacy of public transport infrastructure and a regional government that is able to lay claim to a greater share of the economic activity there.

I am curious about this word 'legacy' here. There may well be a legacy element to the tram infrastructure being rebuilt after the War, and I'm afraid I have never looked into that. But it's very possible that the original tram network was rebuilt and incorporated into the current excellent network.

But I know that the entire U-Bahn network was a post-war thing, built broadly from the late sixties in the 80's and 90's, with later tweaks. The S-Bahn network, linking Frankfurt with its neighbouring cities, was also built gradually over the late seventies to the early nineties, with minor changes since then.

The network of S-Bahn, U-Bahn metros and trams in that city was developed over 30 or so years. It is clear that Dublin does not have similar resources to such a city, region or country.

Nevertheless, over the whole arc of the southside between the southside DART and the Hazelhatch line, it is depressing to read that Dublin doesn't plan to add a single new location served by rail transport over at least the next 22 years.

Kellyconor1982 · 29-06-2018 5:49am

I think busconnects is a good idea but there are routes where it is less likely to be a success and the sw corridor coming from the city is one such area.

I think most locals in places like terenure/rathfarnham would be far more supportive of the metro anyway but throw in the general nuiscance to them from busconnects and they will really roll in behind it. These are areas where there is significant affluence and it's hard to see how they won't have clout.

I think an sw metro is very viable now. If it terminated in Tallaght, that's the biggest suburban area in the city, moving on to a stop at firhouse/knocklyon/ballycullen which is a very populated area with a young population with green space in somewhere like ballycullen where you could easily put a station and a big p+r, then a stop in rathfarnham/terenure area (this would be harder to do admittedly and could be a hot potato)- pethaps a stop around bushy park would cause less discord, then a stop in rathmines which could be difficult again admittedly. The whole route could be 6 or 7 strategically placed stops on this corridor that would make a gigantic difference to the area and with park and ride facilities at the outlying stops, it could take a lot of traffic from places like Blessington off the road. The closeness of the route to the m50 will be very useful also and make it even more viable.

Before busconnects, i would have said it may be the late 2030s at the earliest before i could conceive this route having a metro 2. Now, i think it might have the impact of potentially bringing this possibility to the table more. A lot of the affluent people on part of this route will kick up a royal fuss about their gardens and metro 2 would cause a lot less aesthetic damage, albeit a major ****fest over the locations of certain stops in places.

If there is an area that will be next to get a metro, then i would see this as being next in line and desrvedly so.

LeinsterDub · 29-06-2018 8:57am

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes and if a sub standard bus connects is delivered to Dublin sw which has very little impact on journey times then metro 2 won’t be delivered as the nta will play the, well we’ve already put resources and funds into that corridor, card.
By contrast I’m pretty sure 6 or 7 sites that won’t involve major cpo activity, (unlike bus connects) for stations, can be found from ssg to knocklyon.

Doesn't bus connects cover all major corridors in Dublin? Are you saying the NTA will never build rail again after ML?

Zebra3 · 29-06-2018 9:10am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Nevertheless, over the whole arc of the southside between the southside DART and the Hazelhatch line, it is depressing to read that Dublin doesn't plan to add a single new location served by rail transport over at least the next 22 years.

Yes, but the Hazelhatch line which is way under its potential is looking at a huge upgrade and you seem to have forgotten there is a line already in between the two that opened in 2004, was subsequently extended and is also going to be upgraded.

LeinsterDub · 29-06-2018 9:15am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Nevertheless, over the whole arc of the southside between the southside DART and the Hazelhatch line, it is depressing to read that Dublin doesn't plan to add a single new location served by rail transport over at least the next 22 years.

There are new Dart stations planned and the Dart expansion will result in the current rail infrastructure actually being useful .

strassenwo!f · 29-06-2018 9:48am

And where are these new stations planned, within that arc?

LeinsterDub · 29-06-2018 10:02am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And where are these new stations planned, within that arc?

They aren't misread your reference to Dublin as Dublin as a whole not just in that arc.

strassenwo!f · 29-06-2018 10:16am

Yes, precisely.

Within that arc, Dublin does not plan to add a single new location served by rail (LUAS, metro or DART) for at least 22 (twenty-two) years.

CatInABox · 29-06-2018 10:52am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, precisely.

Within that arc, Dublin does not plan to add a single new location served by rail (LUAS, metro or DART) for at least 22 (twenty-two) years.

Hardly surprising. Up until recently, there was no concrete plans for ANY new rail station in Dublin, never mind the southwest corridor. The NTA are an organisation with a finite capacity. They simply can't do it all at once.

One of the problem that the southwest corridor has is that it is not going to get significantly worse. There's no major developments in the pipeline along that route. It's bad now, of course, there's no denying that, but traffic volumes aren't suddenly going to shoot through the roof. Compare that to the Green Line Luas route, where there's numerous major developments along the route.

tom1ie · 29-06-2018 11:16am

CatInABox wrote: »

Hardly surprising. Up until recently, there was no concrete plans for ANY new rail station in Dublin, never mind the southwest corridor. The NTA are an organisation with a finite capacity. They simply can't do it all at once.

One of the problem that the southwest corridor has is that it is not going to get significantly worse. There's no major developments in the pipeline along that route. It's bad now, of course, there's no denying that, but traffic volumes aren't suddenly going to shoot through the roof. Compare that to the Green Line Luas route, where there's numerous major developments along the route.

Stocking lane, multiple developments in tallaght, developments at the back of scholarstown road and ballyboden way feed into the sw corridor, ie n81 up into templeogue and terenure. These are to name but a few. There is plenty of development in this area. Even as far in as sun drive and the inn in the park at Harold’s x.

tom1ie · 29-06-2018 11:23am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Doesn't bus connects cover all major corridors in Dublin? Are you saying the NTA will never build rail again after ML?

I didn’t properly phrase that last post. What I meant was after the nta get a good bashing from the residents in the sw corridor as they don’t want to give up there front gardens, the nta will run a mile from metro sw.
What I’m saying is it’ll be easier to build a metro with strategically placed stations (eg in the rathfarnham stop on the outskirts of rathfarnham castle park. Plenty of integration with busses. Firhouse stop on green area of stocking lane etc etc) and then just run the tbm from ssg, where it’ll be already in the ground out to firhouse.

Bray Head · 29-06-2018 11:26am

SW Corridor is pretty high density by Dublin standards, at least as far as Terenure. No golf courses, no big parks, very few playing pitches, houses with relatively small gardens. One downside is no major trip generator in the form of a hospital, university, big shopping centre or business park. But there is a lot of housing.

See also image. The density along this spine is as high as the Green luas line. This really should be the next piece of underground rail in Dublin.

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url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjEts2S4fjbAhWPCOwKHZydCgIQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Firishcycle.com%2F2015%2F11%2F03%2Fis-dublin-a-low-density-city%2F&psig=AOvVaw3D9D7ksYk6F4nriD9LsrYX&ust=1530357783932200

Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

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