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Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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  • #242
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Graces7 wrote:
    Just dropping this in; have to go to bed! Food for thought in many ways


    Fools and their money springs to mind.


  • #243
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    AllForIt wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that the volume of ppl at events in Knock and Dublin are capped due to 'health and safety reasons'. Did anyone die in 1979 due to a stampede? It's not like the ppl going there are the same demographic as those attending a rock concert. To me it's an attempt to disguise the fact that there wouldn't be anywhere near the volume of ppl who turned up in 1979.

    But to protest about him coming here? No, why? Anyone who has a problem with religion, on the whole, never object to one having a religious belief but rather the way it was forced on our society. That is going going gone now and I have no problem with the Pope coming to Ireland. If one really believes that we are free to do what we like within the law then that person must also logically agree that ppl are free to practice their religion - and if that means something as unimportant as a church rep visiting the country then totally fine by me.

    I wont be paying any attention - just like the football world cup.

    Isn't that ironic, in a non Alanis Morissette way.


  • #244
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,210 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    No. He's visiting our country just like any other leader. He deserves to be welcomed warmly.


  • #245
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Rubberchikken wrote: »
    No. He's visiting our country just like any other leader. He deserves to be welcomed warmly.

    If another country had treated us with the disdain and caused so much hurt and pain to so many of our citizens would you have the same opinion?

    Should we welcome the head of the ISIS caliphate?


  • #246
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,861 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    If another country had treated us with the disdain and caused so much hurt and pain to so many of our citizens would you have the same opinion?

    Should we welcome the head of the ISIS caliphate?

    Didn't the queen of England visit recently?


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  • #247
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    I'll be protesting. Sexual conservatism is a twisted ideology and needs to die.


  • #248
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Didn't the queen of England visit recently?

    The UK last carried out terrible things in our country some 80 years or so ago. We have been engaged in a long period of getting a closer a more equal relationship with both countries and the Queens visit was a further step on that road.

    The Church is still covering up abuse. Still withholding evidence. Very recently claimed that Canon law was above our laws.

    Until such time as the church attempts to right the wrong of the past, by standing up for the victims either than trying to silence them/degrade them, then we are dealing with an organisation that is actively working against the interests of some of our citizens.


  • #249
    pauliebdub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭pauliebdub


    There's a posting doing the rounds on Facebook where they want people to protest the visit by ordering the free tickets to the Phoenix park and not showing up. Rather mean imo, why deprive tickets from people who genuinely want to go.


  • #250
    Blaas4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 198 ✭✭Blaas4life


    If people wanna protest let em....what harm..so long as there being peaceful??


    Also....I think we should all be getting a bank holiday for this to on the piss


  • #251
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    pauliebdub wrote:
    There's a posting doing the rounds on Facebook where they want people to protest the visit by ordering the free tickets to the Phoenix park and not showing up. Rather mean imo, why deprive tickets from people who genuinely want to go.


    That's a great idea thanks for the heads up. Must get my friends in on it. Thanks.


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  • #252
    Blaas4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 198 ✭✭Blaas4life


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    That's a great idea thanks for the heads up. Must get my friends in on it. Thanks.

    You have friends? :eek:


  • #253
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Blaas4life wrote:
    You have friends?


    Don't we all, some even have invisible friends.


  • #254
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,861 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    The UK last carried out terrible things in our country some 80 years or so ago. We have been engaged in a long period of getting a closer a more equal relationship with both countries and the Queens visit was a further step on that road.

    The Church is still covering up abuse. Still withholding evidence. Very recently claimed that Canon law was above our laws.

    Until such time as the church attempts to right the wrong of the past, by standing up for the victims either than trying to silence them/degrade them, then we are dealing with an organisation that is actively working against the interests of some of our citizens.

    Bloody Sunday was only just over half that and I'm sure more knowledgeable posters will point to atrocities more recent than that.

    Listen I have no time for the pope, the RCC or any religion for that matter. I think the best "protest" that people can have would be to just ignore his visit if they feel that strongly about it. The less crowds shown on the news reports the better.

    Edit: The British government to this day are also withholding evidence and actively workk (ed) against the interest of Irish citizens. I see the Duke and Dutchess of Sussex will be visiting soon and will be welcomed.


  • #255
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Bloody Sunday was only just over half that and I'm sure more knowledgeable posters will point to atrocities more recent than that.

    Listen I have no time for the pope, the RCC or any religion for that matter. I think the best "protest" that people can have would be to just ignore his visit if they feel that strongly about it. The less crowds shown on the news reports the better.

    Especially given that some of the protestors are the type that are not very good at it and there will be a load of attention seekers who will probably end up distracting away from the main issues.


  • #256
    Blaas4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 198 ✭✭Blaas4life


    Ipso wrote: »
    Especially given that some of the protestors are the type that are not very good at it and there will be a load of attention seekers who will probably end up distracting away from the main issues.

    Tbh the protesters aren't gonna get anywhere near it like


    I do believe everyone should have right to protest though....like I wouldn't bother going to see the pope or bother going for the protest....but each to their own


    It's forever better for a country for people to be politically engaged and attending protests etc (even if you wholeheartedly disagree with em) than to sit at home and let apathy and disinterest set in and feeling of helplessness that you cant change things


  • #257
    work
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭work


    martyc5674 wrote: »
    No one protesting is protesting against the religion, they are protesting the abuse of power the abuse of women the abuse of children that they have gotten away with for years.
    You won’t see any placards shunning catholics/Catholicism.

    He is the leader of a group who have destroyed so many families and I feel we are still only scratching the surface,with abuse stories hitting the media daily, they are slow to acknowledge anything and need to change this stance before they win back support.

    Yes as a group they have shown little reason to be trusted. they are slow to apologise for atrocities and as such show little understanding of what they pretend to preach. Honesty and love.


  • #258
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    work wrote: »
    Yes as a group they have shown little reason to be trusted. they are slow to apologise for atrocities and as such show little understanding of what they pretend to preach. Honesty and love.


    You really lost me. I really think you don't understand the sturcture of the church and the notion of responsibility? Clerics have appologising non stop for decades now, even for things they had no control over.



    I hear a lot of people shouting for apologies for Tuam. Leaving aside the fact that Tuam is vastly less scandalous than suggested, no Pope or Rome had any connection to it. They literally had no role whatsoever. It was an institution run done by Irish women in a French order at the bequest of the Irish State. It was primitive and obselete but so was the workhouse system it replaced. Why is that Irish people want to Irish mistakes on Rome and why is it only a scandal when it has the R word in it (religion). Poor Law Unions and metal asylums were non religious so we simply ignore them.



    You know the vast majority of the abuse stopped in the 1970s or before. Are you going to protest against the actions of Ronald Regan the next time an American president visits ireland?


  • #259
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,049 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    You really lost me. I really think you don't understand the sturcture of the church and the notion of responsibility? Clerics have appologising non stop for decades now, even for things they had no control over.



    I hear a lot of people shouting for apologies for Tuam. Leaving aside the fact that Tuam is vastly less scandalous than suggested, no Pope or Rome had any connection to it. They literally had no role whatsoever. It was an institution run done by Irish women in a French order at the bequest of the Irish State. It was primitive and obselete but so was the workhouse system it replaced. Why is that Irish people want to Irish mistakes on Rome and why is it only a scandal when it has the R word in it (religion). Poor Law Unions and metal asylums were non religious so we simply ignore them.



    You know the vast majority of the abuse stopped in the 1970s or before. Are you going to protest against the actions of Ronald Regan the next time an American president visits ireland?

    I wonder how many people in Tuam protested about it while it was actually in operation? Big fat zero I'll bet. It happened on that generations watch.


  • #260
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I'll be protesting. Sexual conservatism is a twisted ideology and needs to die.

    Isnt the best of protesting this to simply ignore them? It is, after all, the only way to show that you genuinely dont care


  • #261
    work
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭work


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    You really lost me. I really think you don't understand the sturcture of the church and the notion of responsibility? Clerics have appologising non stop for decades now, even for things they had no control over.



    I hear a lot of people shouting for apologies for Tuam. Leaving aside the fact that Tuam is vastly less scandalous than suggested, no Pope or Rome had any connection to it. They literally had no role whatsoever. It was an institution run done by Irish women in a French order at the bequest of the Irish State. It was primitive and obselete but so was the workhouse system it replaced. Why is that Irish people want to Irish mistakes on Rome and why is it only a scandal when it has the R word in it (religion). Poor Law Unions and metal asylums were non religious so we simply ignore them.



    You know the vast majority of the abuse stopped in the 1970s or before. Are you going to protest against the actions of Ronald Regan the next time an American president visits ireland?

    majority of abuse stopped in the 70s. fantastic then all forgiven. I have multiple family members subjected to very dubious church abuse. this happened in Ireland not somewhere else. this is all very recent and I truly believe most victims say nothing for personal reasons. Their apologies have been too few and far between, they are slow coming and VERY slow to make amends.
    Just because you protest the Catholic church does not mean you agree with what every other group ever did! the RC church is a misogynistic cesspool with not a shred of evidence to back up its promotion of the Deity they plug yet worked their way into the fabric of our society.
    I am shocked by Varadkers support given their homophobic views. It's like the jews voting for Hitler.....does he not get the irony!

    Personally I am delighted to see them coming out of the schools. This is my only agenda. However I am shocked minority faiths will be left with the right to choose their pupils. This is discriminatory and supports other deity systems with no evidence. What a joke. Ban ALL religeon from schools. If parents want their kids bought up in a specific baseless faith whatever that is they should do it in their own time and with their own resources.


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  • #262
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    work wrote: »
    majority of abuse stopped in the 70s. fantastic then all forgiven. I have multiple family members subjected to very dubious church abuse. this happened in Ireland not somewhere else. this is all very recent and I truly believe most victims say nothing for personal reasons. Their apologies have been too few and far between, they are slow coming and VERY slow to make amends.
    Just because you protest the Catholic church does not mean you agree with what every other group ever did! the RC church is a misogynistic cesspool with not a shred of evidence to back up its promotion of the Deity they plug yet worked their way into the fabric of our society.
    I am shocked by Varadkers support given their homophobic views. It's like the jews voting for Hitler.....does he not get the irony!

    Personally I am delighted to see them coming out of the schools. This is my only agenda. However I am shocked minority faiths will be left with the right to choose their pupils. This is discriminatory and supports other deity systems with no evidence. What a joke. Ban ALL religeon from schools. If parents want their kids bought up in a specific baseless faith whatever that is they should do it in their own time and with their own resources.
    There is no one in Ireland in a position of power how had anything to with the abuse, that level of accountablity is unlike nealry every other Irish scandal. The churches reaction at first was poor but in the last 10 years it has been very good. The fact that you simply say you're only agenda is to end religion is self apperent. I thought it was about the victims. :rolleyes:


  • #263
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    The churches reaction at first was poor but in the last 10 years it has been very good.

    That is quite a statement. What particularly have they done they have made it very good.

    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    The fact that you simply say you're only agenda is to end religion is self apparent. I thought it was about the victims. :rolleyes:

    Not sure the poster said they wanted to end religion, in fact they stated they were happy for people to do it for themselves. They want to get rid of religion in schools.

    The usual question, would you be happy if the catholic church was replaced by Islam as the default religion in all schools?


  • #264
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    That is quite a statement. What particularly have they done they have made it very good.




    Not sure the poster said they wanted to end religion, in fact they stated they were happy for people to do it for themselves. They want to get rid of religion in schools.

    The usual question, would you be happy if the catholic church was replaced by Islam as the default religion in all schools?
    The anti religion message was clear. I am very proud of the fact that Ireland tolerant enough to have public muslim schools in Ireland and the many other denominations too. That is pluralism. If the public want more muslim schools so be it. They will surely raise the money for themseves, unlike the cheap secularists here trying to seize church schools for free.


  • #265
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    You are looking at it as an attack on religion, and that is not what it is. It is looking for religion to be freely practiced, but also those that don't want to or believe, that they should have the choice.

    Happily, in recent years educate together etc have created more choice, but there is a lot more work to be done. But religion, a belief system based on a book, has no place in the education sphere, save for telling children that it exists and the good things and bad things it has done.

    You avoided my question. If it really about just having religion in school, then surely all children should be given the choice of which religion class to attend, which events to partake in (communion etc).

    It is easy for the CC to claim that everyone is free to do it, when they control the market. The usual monopoly claiming they welcome competition. The CC have gained very substantially from the schools. Not merely in money terms, but they maintained their grip on communities as everything revolved around the church and school. The state has given significant monetary subsidies to the CC. Be that be given them tax free status, the scandalous agreements that allowed the CC to avoid the majority of costs to be with the scandals, the fact that even getting such a deal they continue to not have paid up their side.


  • #266
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    You are looking at it as an attack on religion, and that is not what it is. It is looking for religion to be freely practiced, but also those that don't want to or believe, that they should have the choice.

    Happily, in recent years educate together etc have created more choice, but there is a lot more work to be done. But religion, a belief system based on a book, has no place in the education sphere, save for telling children that it exists and the good things and bad things it has done.

    You avoided my question. If it really about just having religion in school, then surely all children should be given the choice of which religion class to attend, which events to partake in (communion etc).

    It is easy for the CC to claim that everyone is free to do it, when they control the market. The usual monopoly claiming they welcome competition. The CC have gained very substantially from the schools. Not merely in money terms, but they maintained their grip on communities as everything revolved around the church and school. The state has given significant monetary subsidies to the CC. Be that be given them tax free status, the scandalous agreements that allowed the CC to avoid the majority of costs to be with the scandals, the fact that even getting such a deal they continue to not have paid up their side.
    I agree religion is subjective and not for everyone but no more than the many subjects. Some people want to cut out English from the secondary schools system, others believe Irish should be gone and there are those who think the history curriculum is biased and inappropriate. The idea that religious people who pay tax should not be allowed to teach religion to those who seek it is an insult to personal liberty and phlisophically irrational.

    Yes we need more educate togethers but please dont restrict my liberty in the process.



    It is interesting how people inlcuding politicians plead for greater separation of church and state while in the recent Minister Madigan scandal our Gov felt appropriate to tell the Catholic Church to accept female priests. This 'war' is about dominance and not expanding personal liberty.


  • #267
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    What bothers me the most about the Roman church is that they are still withholding information from their victims. They should be forced to make their data free to anyone including the Gardaí.
    I don't understand how people darken the doors of churches while they act this way.


  • #268
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    Leroy42 wrote: »

    It is easy for the CC to claim that everyone is free to do it, when they control the market. The usual monopoly claiming they welcome competition. The CC have gained very substantially from the schools. Not merely in money terms, but they maintained their grip on communities as everything revolved around the church and school. The state has given significant monetary subsidies to the CC. Be that be given them tax free status, the scandalous agreements that allowed the CC to avoid the majority of costs to be with the scandals, the fact that even getting such a deal they continue to not have paid up their side.

    The Roman church did get a very dodgy deal from that FF government for redress costs. They taxpayer is paying for their crimes against humanity.


  • #269
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    This fluffy, caring church is only a recent phenomenon in Ireland, and welcome as that is, let us not pretend that it was by choice or by some enlightenment. They were forced to change by the sheer weight of scandals against them. Only recently we had the church arguing that canon law takes precedence of the law of the state!

    But the church has not only stood by but actively protected and covered up institutional rape of children. They have forced mothers to give up their babies for no other reason than it was against their moral code. They have undertaken beatings in schools. This is the institution that in the past have allowed things like the Spanish Inquisition and the witch trials. Sure it was in the past but even now they are covering up abuse and telling people in Africa not to use condemns, not because they don't believe they work, but it again goes against the code.

    And people think we should welcome what it essentially a PR and recruitment drive to Ireland?

    Have the church dealt with the Tuam scandal? Have they gone back and dealt with all past clerical pare and abuse? Have they dealt with the mothers from the Magdalene Laundries? Have they opened up their records to deal with the babies removed from their mothers and given up for adoption in the US?

    Its is great if it hasn't effected you personally, but it severely damaged the lives of thousands of people. People that have been forced to endure being portrayed as liars when they tried to tell their story, defended at every turn by the church more worried about itself and its assets than the person they had wronged. Eventually it comes out that not only did the abuse happen, but the church knew about it at the time and knew that person was telling the truth, yet allowed them to relive the orderal to try to save themselves.

    Great post


  • #270
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    work wrote: »
    I believe a huge protest against the popes visit is required to show the government and church they are no longer welcome or wanted in our society. What do you think? There are many stakeholders that should protest their removal from any influence in our society. Some that come to mind are:
    1) Anyone not supportive of misogyny
    2) Anyone that doesn't believe in school indoctrination of children in a massive lie.
    3) Anyone concerned about abusers in positions allowing abuse
    4) Anyone with the most basic scientific education.
    5) Anyone that doesn't support cults
    6) Anyone that believes LGBT people should be treated fairly in society.
    7) Anyone that believes women should have ANY control of their bodies.
    8) Anyone that is not seen as equal in the church namely women children and men.


    There are many other areas but I realised I have covered everyone. As such let's all go to the Phoenix park to let the Vatican know they are not welcome.
    Are there any peaceful groups planning to protest?

    Should "we"....?

    Will YOU protest?

    When's his unholiness coming, anyway (if you'll pardon the pun)?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • #271
    Banterbus28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭Banterbus28


    There are Catholics in Ireland, the Pope is the leader of Catholicism, why the hell should his visit be protested?

    Nonsense. If Catholics want him to visit Ireland then he's welcome, end of. No need for a discussion on it.

    Does it hirt you in anyway to have the Pope in the same country as you?

    Does it affect your lifestyle?

    Nope. Ridiculous notion.


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