John Leslie Trial - Accused of touching woman's bum in nightclub

21-06-2018 12:14PM

Mokuba wrote: »

Gotten to the point where you'd have to look at most of these cases and roll your eyes.

Women seem more desperate than ever to be a part of the victim culture. So much so that anything that wasn't 100 percent mind-blowing for her is now assault or rape.

A natural consequence of a generation that lives their lives through instagram likes, where validation and attention is the currency.

Attention seeking, validation seeking rubbish.

So true, women are just dying to be Victims of groping etc. The more invasive the better, actually.
Imagine someone being sexually assaulted acting like a victim!!

21-06-2018 12:15PM

nullzero wrote: »

It's viewed as less damaging for a man to be groped by a woman than the other way around, even though it's just as immoral.

Well it shouldn't be. I think we are all agreed on that.
I think the answer here is that anyone who is uncomfortable with how they have been treated should be able to speak up, rather than shushing others to whom it happens

21-06-2018 12:16PM

Wibbs wrote: »

What gets me about this whole thing is - and you've done it again in this post - is conflating someone who can't even remember if a man touched her that way or not and some being actually groped or getting molested. Examples are to be seen on the regular with the #MeToo types too. One woman struggles to post her harrowing experience of being raped and a few tweets later another woman is "violated" because someone looked at her breasts on the bus. The notion of severity or sliding scale seems to be a difficult concept for many.

And who are you to decide how people react to things?
I know Victims of burglaries who have needed counselling afterwards.
Just because you think something is low down on your scale, doesn't mean it is for everyone

Wibbs · 21-06-2018 12:18PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Meh... I dunno. 1) there's a bit of a difference when it's a male strip show where guys are wang waving in the face of scuttered lassies out for a laugh. 2) it would be a nonsense to consider the physical threat disparity between a man pressing unwanted sexual advances or groping and a woman doing so. Let's face it unless someone like Ronda Rousey(sp) decided to feel me up, and it was unwanted, unlikely in both cases, I will feel near zero physical threat from a woman in such a circumstance. Basically my No means No is backed up by a physical full stop should she not take the hint. I can simply push her away and ignore her if needs be. If you'd said a gay fella trying it on with a man it would be on much firmer ground.

21-06-2018 12:21PM

bubblypop wrote: »

And who are you to decide how people react to things?
I know Victims of burglaries who have needed counselling afterwards.
Just because you think something is low down on your scale, doesn't mean it is for everyone

So if I am uncomfortable because someone touches my arm in a flirtatious manner without my consent in a pub (I may have intimacy issues) should I be able to drag them to court for sexually assaulting me?

It may be low on your scale but it may not be for me.

I know this is a ridiculous comparison but it is no more ridiculous than you thinking that a rape and someone being stared at is comparable.

Permabear · 21-06-2018 12:22PM

This post has been deleted.

sbsquarepants · 21-06-2018 12:22PM

ash23 wrote: »

It's not just a matter of touching someones bare arse or breast. It's a violation and for some people that can hit hard and mocking that or making accusations that a woman is playing up for social media and wanting to be a victim is a terrible comment.

Some people just have no respect for other people.

I can't stand that blokey, touchy, feely, grabby shít. I've been in nightclubs over the years and seen women being grabbed hold of (sometimes even by people I was with) some shrugged it off, or took it as a laugh and others basically fell apart.
The simple fact is you have no way of knowing what the reaction (and the effect on the person involved) will be. The obvious course of action is to keep your damn hands to yourself - is that really too much to ask?

If you wouldn't feel comfortable in walking up to the 6 foot 6 15 stone ex ukranian military bouncer and grabbing his arse "for a laugh" then don't do it to the 5 foot 2, 8 stone college girl.

eagle eye · 21-06-2018 12:24PM

If you were to ask a woman if it was ok to touch her she'd more than likely say no and then tell her friends that you were a little creepy because you asked.

sbsquarepants · 21-06-2018 12:28PM

eagle eye wrote: »

If you were to ask a woman if it was ok to touch her she'd more than likely say no and then tell her friends that you were a little creepy because you asked.

Imagine what that same girl would say then if you grabbed her by the ass!

Wibbs · 21-06-2018 12:29PM

bubblypop wrote: »

And who are you to decide how people react to things?
I know Victims of burglaries who have needed counselling afterwards.

I know an elderly woman who took her own life after a burglary where they destroyed her house and took a shit on her floor. I doubt she would have if she saw someone looking in her window. Spot the difference.

Just because you think something is low down on your scale, doesn't mean it is for everyone

If someone has a similar reaction from a bloke looking at her clothed breasts on a bus as someone else that has been raped, then yep if someone is that easily traumatised they need counselling alright. And yes I would contend it's more about them trying to fit in with and be included in the victim culture.

ash23 wrote: »

She can remember he touched her inside her trousers. She just doesn't know if his hand was inside her underwear or between her underwear and her trousers. That wouldn't be the easiest thing to judge in fairness. It doesn't mean she doesn't remember the incident.

Nope, she said "Mr Leslie touched her skin but she was not sure if he put his hand beneath her underwear." How is that not easy to judge? What skin, where? If he didn't directly grope her arse which would be a tad difficult without going inside her underwear then what did he allegedly do? Her judgement is dubious considering her recollection of her mates pulling her away from the bad man, which didn't happen. Luckily CCTV was in place or that would be seen as "evidence". Pity it didn't have a better view of the alleged incident.

Wibbs · 21-06-2018 12:31PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Seems to be the latter more and more. Welcome to mob rule and the discarding of 2000 years of legal evolution.

facehugger99 · 21-06-2018 12:32PM

eagle eye wrote: »

If you were to ask a woman if it was ok to touch her she'd more than likely say no and then tell her friends that you were a little creepy because you asked.

So don't ask basically?

sbsquarepants · 21-06-2018 12:33PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope, she said "Mr Leslie touched her skin but she was not sure if he put his hand beneath her underwear." How is that not easy to judge? What skin, where? If he didn't directly grope her arse which would be a tad difficult without going inside her underwear then what did he allegedly do? Her judgement is dubious considering her recollection of her mates pulling her away from the bad man, which didn't happen. Luckily CCTV was in place or that would be seen as "evidence". Pity it didn't have a better view of the alleged incident.

Come on now - it depends on the knickers!

If she had Victorian bloomers on you might have a point, but something a bit more skimpy - it's entirely plausible you could touch someones bare ass and them not know if you had your hand in their knickers or not!

Gatling · 21-06-2018 12:33PM

Seriously surprised this actually made it to trial based off what was claimed and what the CCTV showed ,
I wonder if this is more of an actual witch-hunt against the former celebrity based off previous claims against him.

There needs to be a serious debate about where we want this to go .

Glass fused light · 21-06-2018 12:34PM

eagle eye wrote: »

If you were to ask a woman if it was ok to touch her she'd more than likely say no and then tell her friends that you were a little creepy because you asked.

Well then most likely you had given your self a very lucky escape from an assault charge.

On the other hand if you had just met and were dancing in the middle of a public event and asked if it was ok to stick your hand down her trousers and cop a feel she likely has a point*.

* and not because you asked

21-06-2018 12:42PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So if I am uncomfortable because someone touches my arm in a flirtatious manner without my consent in a pub (I may have intimacy issues) should I be able to drag them to court for sexually assaulting me?

It may be low on your scale but it may not be for me.

I know this is a ridiculous comparison but it is no more ridiculous than you thinking that a rape and someone being stared at is comparable.

No, because I don't believe it comes under the legal definition of sexual assault.
I don't believe people should touch you if you don't wish them too, just tell them the next time

& I am well aware of the difference in rape & someone being stared at. I don't believe someone being stared at is the problem in this case, is it?

Olsky · 21-06-2018 12:46PM

Cienciano wrote: »

Out of interest, suppose he 100% did put his hand down her waistband while dancing with her. What do you think the punishment for should be?

Let me be the first male to put his head above the parapet. Given the circumstances i.e. she approached him and asked him if he wanted to dance in a night club and given the tacit understanding of the role that nightclubs have traditionaly played in mating rituals....

I think he did nothing wrong.

So the question of whether or not he put his hand under her waistband is irrelevant.
So put me against a wall and shoot me for heresy against ,#metoo

Mokuba · 21-06-2018 12:47PM

ash23 wrote: »

This is the problem.
I put up with this kind of crap when I was younger. Being groped when I worked in clubs, inappropriate comments, being touched when I didn't want to be, being genuinely frightened when someone wouldn't take no for an answer.
I would have hoped things have changed in the last 20 years. But it hasn't. I have a young teenager who has already experienced the above. Including a fairly serious groping incident.

Thankfully for the most part, people have reassured her that this was completely wrong and she is well within her rights to be upset and the effect it has had on her was very real and very genuine. She no longer wants to go to busy places and has no interest in boys etc as she is no longer comfortable. She was molested before she even had her first kiss. The liberties that young boys have taken with her body is outrageous and the fact that anyone would try to justify it is disgusting.
But there have been people (older men for the most part) who have told her she is being difficult and over reacting and making a big deal out of it and that she should just move on and forget about it.

It's not just a matter of touching someones bare arse or breast. It's a violation and for some people that can hit hard and mocking that or making accusations that a woman is playing up for social media and wanting to be a victim is a terrible comment.

This case and what you have just described are absolutely nothing alike.

It just so happens that more and more of these ridiculous allegations are becoming of the silly ilk because people want to be included in the victimhood. Aziz Ansari and a lot of the James Franco stuff come to mind.

What makes it more dangerous is the automatic belief given to these so called victims in the media and by the police, who are beyond eager to get these cases before courts regardless of actual evidence. In the scenario of lack of evidence -See also: Jackson, Paddy.

Proven lies about the CCTV and an allegation that he touched skin but she can't remember where.

Give over.

21-06-2018 12:50PM

The thought of them doing forensics on her clothes after this incident

Why do they need DNA to prove anything

razorblunt · 21-06-2018 12:54PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That missus of yours, she's got quite the knack for understatement

Ah I see you're familiar with her good self!

21-06-2018 12:55PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I know an elderly woman who took her own life after a burglary where they destroyed her house and took a shit on her floor. I doubt she would have if she saw someone looking in her window. Spot the difference.
.

& so what if that elderly lady had a similar reaction if someone looked in her window? Are you going to tell her she is over reacting?

Mokuba · 21-06-2018 12:57PM

bubblypop wrote: »

& so what if that elderly lady had a similar reaction if someone looked in her window? Are you going to tell her she is over reacting?

I'd safely say that somebody committing suicide because someone looked in their window would be an overreaction, yes.

Did you read what you just wrote?

EagererBeaver · 21-06-2018 01:07PM

Embarrassing stuff from the usual neanderthals on here.

Is it ok to stick your hands down someone's pants after you've danced with them, without invitation or any preceding escalation in the, em, courtship? No. Absolutely not. Is that what happened here? Who knows? That's why it's in court.

Stop saying "the CCTV proves she lied" about how the encounter ended. Nothing has been proven. The defence barrister has put it to her that CCTV contradicts her version of events that she was pulled away from him by friends. If you are unable to understand the difference, I'd suggest you're a bit of a mouth-breathing moron.

Wibbs · 21-06-2018 01:09PM

bubblypop wrote: »

& so what if that elderly lady had a similar reaction if someone looked in her window? Are you going to tell her she is over reacting?

No, because to be quite frank I'd question the state of her mental health, because such a clear overreaction would be a pretty good symptom of something deeper. So it would hardly be polite or helpful to someone likely struggling with mental health issues to point out that yes indeed she is overreacting. Unless you think there is no such thing as an overreaction and that it's all subjective? Which is a bloody nonsense.

Some woman stares at my jean clad man parts on a bus and I freak out? I'd sign myself up for a proper shrink in double quick time, because that is not a normal healthy mental reaction to the world. I would not go to twitter to try and normalise it as a healthy reaction. If I did I'd need said shrink even more urgently.

nullzero · 21-06-2018 01:10PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Well it shouldn't be. I think we are all agreed on that.
I think the answer here is that anyone who is uncomfortable with how they have been treated should be able to speak up, rather than shushing others to whom it happens

I have been groped by women, do I consider it sexual assault? No, because it isn't.
It isn't right that somebody should grope you but it isn't in the category of sexual assault and to say it is dilutes the meaning on the term.

johnnyskeleton · 21-06-2018 01:11PM

ash23 wrote: »

This is why there are victim impact statements and also why a person can drop a case, refuse to give evidence etc etc.

Only the DPP can drop a case, albeit such is likely if a complainant is unwilling to give evidence. If a prosecution witness refuses to give evidence they can be compelled or their statement read in evidence if the Judge so directs.

But as far as I am aware the victim impact statement is just to give the victim a voice and the sentencing reflects the crime committed and not the impact of the crime

The impact of a crime on a victim is a significant factor for the court to take into account, but is not the only factor.

Mokuba · 21-06-2018 01:12PM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Embarrassing stuff from the usual neanderthals on here.

Is it ok to stick your hands down someone's pants after you've danced with them, without invitation or any preceding escalation in the, em, courtship? No. Absolutely not. Is that what happened here? Who knows? That's why it's in court.

Stop saying "the CCTV proves she lied" about how the encounter ended. Nothing has been proven. The defence barrister has put it to her that CCTV contradicts her version of events that she was pulled away from him by friends. If you are unable to understand the difference, I'd suggest you're a bit of a mouth-breathing moron.

She doesn't know if he put his hands down her pants or not. She. Cannot. Remember.

All she claims to remember is that he touched skin, and that her friend pulled her away.

The CCTV proves she lied about her friend dragging her away from him.

Read about if before embarrassing yourself.

Cienciano · 21-06-2018 01:14PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

What is the punishment for sexual assault these days?

I didn't expect an answer

21-06-2018 01:15PM

bubblypop wrote: »

No, because I don't believe it comes under the legal definition of sexual assault.
I don't believe people should touch you if you don't wish them too, just tell them the next time

If it was done in a flirtatious manner, it would be open to interpretation.

And I think you unwittingly summed up my feelings about what should have happened in this case.

Wibbs · 21-06-2018 01:16PM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Embarrassing stuff from the usual neanderthals on here.

Hey I like Neandertals and see that as racist as 4% of my DNA is from them. NO surprise say many.

Is it ok to stick your hands down someone's pants after you've danced with them, without invitation or any preceding escalation in the, em, courtship? No. Absolutely not.

I agree 100%.

Stop saying "the CCTV proves she lied" about how the encounter ended. Nothing has been proven. The defence barrister has put it to her that CCTV contradicts her version of events that she was pulled away from him by friends. If you are unable to understand the difference, I'd suggest you're a bit of a mouth-breathing moron.

The unblinking and unbiased eye of CCTV directly contradicts her testimony. It doesn't prove she lied, certainly doesn't prove it a deliberate thing, as human memory is a very fickle thing, but it does prove her recollection of that part of the event is wrong. Given her nebulous memory of the alleged incident itself it does not exactly inspire confidence in her evidence. How this even got to trial beggars belief. I strongly suspect it wouldn't have if it had been Joe Bloggs in the potential dock.

John Leslie Trial - Accused of touching woman's bum in nightclub

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