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State Apology to Homosexuals

245

Comments

  • #32
    s7ryf3925pivug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,999 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    "No secret that people involved in the founding of the state were homosexuals"

    Padraig Pearse was the only one I was aware of. He was a homosexual paedophile. Personally I think homosexual paedophiles should be treated as an entirely separate group to homosexuals who are attracted to adults.


  • #33
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,125 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Irene Scarce Theatre wrote: »
    "No secret that people involved in the founding of the state were homosexuals"

    Padraig Pearse was the only one I was aware of. He was a homosexual paedophile. Personally I think homosexual paedophiles should be treated as an entirely separate group to homosexuals who are attracted to adults.

    Was Pearse a terrorist or freedom fighter?
    That is the question.


  • #34
    Trasna1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    Irene Scarce Theatre wrote: »
    "No secret that people involved in the founding of the state were homosexuals"

    Padraig Pearse was the only one I was aware of. He was a homosexual paedophile. Personally I think homosexual paedophiles should be treated as an entirely separate group to homosexuals who are attracted to adults.
    Roger Casement was a homosexual.


  • #35
    s7ryf3925pivug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,999 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    Was Pearse a terrorist or freedom fighter?
    That is the question.
    Well he was a paedophile who led lots of people to martyrdom to stir up support for a cause that was unpopular at the time.


  • #36
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    Irene Scarce Theatre wrote: »
    Well he was a paedophile who led lots of people to martyrdom to stir up support for a cause that was unpopular at the time.

    He was a paedophile?


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  • #37
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Irene Scarce Theatre wrote: »
    "Personally I think homosexual paedophiles should be treated as an entirely separate group to homosexuals who are attracted to adults.

    I don't think there is a rational being in the world that would not agree with you. Why are you pointing out the obvious, that has noting to do with this thread.


  • #38
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Mutant z wrote: »
    There may need to be a lot more apologising in future when you look at the demographic change which is currently taking place in this country and the less than friendly views some of those demographs hold towards gay people.

    What demographic change? Ireland is one of the most accepting countries in the world of gay people and can't see that changing soon


  • #39
    Roger_007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    He was a paedophile?

    Decide for yourself:-

    LITTLE LAD OF THE TRICKS

    by Padraig Pearse.


    Little lad of the tricks,
    Full well I know
    That you have been in mischief:
    Confess your fault truly.

    I forgive you, child
    Of the soft red mouth:
    I will not condemn anyone
    For a sin not understood.

    Raise your comely head
    Till I kiss your mouth:
    If either of us is the better of that
    I am the better of it.

    There is a fragrance in your kiss
    That I have not found yet
    In the kisses of women
    Or in the honey of their bodies.

    Lad of the grey eyes,
    That flush in thy cheek
    Would be white with dread of me
    Could you read my secrets.

    He who has my secrets
    Is not fit to touch you:
    Is not that a pitiful thing,
    Little lad of the tricks ?


  • #40
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    Decide for yourself:-

    LITTLE LAD OF THE TRICKS

    by Padraig Pearse.


    Little lad of the tricks,
    Full well I know
    That you have been in mischief:
    Confess your fault truly.

    I forgive you, child
    Of the soft red mouth:
    I will not condemn anyone
    For a sin not understood.

    Raise your comely head
    Till I kiss your mouth:
    If either of us is the better of that
    I am the better of it.

    There is a fragrance in your kiss
    That I have not found yet
    In the kisses of women
    Or in the honey of their bodies.

    Lad of the grey eyes,
    That flush in thy cheek
    Would be white with dread of me
    Could you read my secrets.

    He who has my secrets
    Is not fit to touch you:
    Is not that a pitiful thing,
    Little lad of the tricks ?

    That's your evidence? A poem?


  • #41
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,947 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    AllForIt wrote: »
    As I watched the proceedings and TD after TD recounted the veritable horror of the lives of ppl who have been persecuted over the generations especially gay men I couldn't help but feel amazed by how far this Catholic conservative country has come.


    Curiously enough, the priesthood was more of a safe haven for many conservative gay men at the time in that it afforded them the ability to remain in the closest and not have to bear the social pressure of people questioning their sexuality or facing pressure to go into manual labour, to marry, to have children, to get a job that would provide for a family, etc.

    I tend to view any apologies for political purposes a bit like this tbh:




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  • #42
    s7ryf3925pivug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,999 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    He was a paedophile?
    Yes. Google little lad of the tricks. He wrote lots of stuff like that.

    Some people think he didnt act on his desires. Personally I reckon he would have chosen a different career if that were true.


  • #43
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    Irene Scarce Theatre wrote: »
    Yes. Google little lad of the tricks. He wrote lots of stuff like that.

    Some people think he didnt act on his desires. Personally I reckon he would have chosen a different career if that were true.

    A poem? That's your evidence that he was a paedophile. I hope you don't work in the legal profession.


  • #44
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Any sign of Leo apologizing for the state torturing people to death and dumping their bodies or tying prisoners to land mines?

    Is there f**k.


  • #45
    Mutant z
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    Where's the evidence for all these accusations about Pearse.


  • #46
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Apparently at least one other country used to chemically castrate gay people until quite recently, in between lecturing the rest of the world about "civilisation". Did the Irish state do that?

    True, the U.K. was far worse for homosexuals. That doesn’t fit the narrative.


  • #47
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    Mutant z wrote: »
    Where's the evidence for all these accusations about Pearse.

    The legal eagles have decided that a poem is sufficient evidence.


  • #48
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Irene Scarce Theatre wrote: »
    Well he was a paedophile who led lots of people to martyrdom to stir up support for a cause that was unpopular at the time.

    Where’s the evidence that Pearse actually engaged in any pedophilloic activities.


  • #49
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Curiously enough, the priesthood was more of a safe haven for many conservative gay men at the time in that it afforded them the ability to remain in the closest and not have to bear the social pressure of people questioning their sexuality or facing pressure to go into manual labour, to marry, to have children, to get a job that would provide for a family, etc.

    Is/was there social pressure to get married and have children? Where did that come from I wonder.

    More likely the typical Catholic family who had an abundance of children convinced one of them (for whatever reason,hint hint) to become a priest. What an accolade to have a priest in one's family. Kill two birds with one stone, kinda thing.


  • #50
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    As far as calculating politicians are concerned, I accept that. This apology will be forgotten tomorrow. But if you don't mind it does mean something to some ppl even if means nothing to you personally. On top of that when you see what goes in foreign lands as homosexual rights have become worse due to to social wars between the east and west, I think it's worthwhile to state where our county stands on the issue.


  • #51
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,947 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    AllForIt wrote: »
    Is/was there social pressure to get married and have children? Where did that come from I wonder.


    It came from the hopes of increasing the familys social status through marriage, which was practiced in Irish society long before Catholicism.

    More likely the typical Catholic family who had an abundance of children convinced one of them (for whatever reason,hint hint) to become a priest. What an accolade to have a priest in one's family. Kill two birds with one stone, kinda thing.


    There was that too of course, which was indeed like killing two birds with the one stone - gay Catholics didn't bring shame on the family, and of course having a priest in the family increased a familys social status, an idea not entirely unlike the numbers of young daughters who 'suddenly' felt the urge to join the Convent out of the blue. At least that's what the neighbours were told, so the family maintained and even grew their social status in their community.

    It was more of a social class thing than it was ever about whether or not someone was gay. There are many well-known people at the time who were openly gay and wealthy, and that's not a particularly popular narrative, because it betrays the romanticised narrative that suggests Irish society was a collective of ignorant spud munchers in thrall to the Church. They weren't, or at least most people weren't anyway. It was simply a case then as much as it is today of keeping up appearances.


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  • #52
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,274 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sure the Irish state didn't even have the balls to hang their own death penalty criminals when it was still on the statute books. Used to fly the British executioner over to drop the lever, kick the chair out, or whatever it was they did.

    There wasn't enough executions in Ireland to warrant a full time employed hangman, that's why one was brought in. Indeed, there wasn't even enough executions in the UK either to have their own dedicated hangman.


  • #53
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,947 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    AllForIt wrote: »
    As far as calculating politicians are concerned, I accept that. This apology will be forgotten tomorrow. But if you don't mind it does mean something to some ppl even if means nothing to you personally. On top of that when you see what goes in foreign lands as homosexual rights have become worse due to to social wars between the east and west, I think it's worthwhile to state where our county stands on the issue.


    Of course I can acknowledge that an apology from the State means everything to a lot of people I know, before this there was Enda apologising for the part the State played in the Mother and Baby homes and so on, meant nothing to me then either, but again I know people it meant everything to, and I wasn't trying to take away from what it meant to those people.

    I do think however that it takes an incredible hubris on the part of politicians to apologise on my behalf for something when I haven't actually done anything wrong, and that's why it comes across as simply pompous insincerity and using people for political point scoring.

    If you want to put us up on the international stage, Ireland really doesn't fare any better than any other country in the world with respect to the rights and welfare of people who are homosexual. We're still falling well short of where we need to be in terms of action, and insincere apologies too late aren't even coming close to addressing that reality IMO.


  • #54
    Varik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,531 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    I'm fine with it, not like they've set up some expensive tribunal to find out exactly how sorry we should all be.

    Didn't cost anything, and for those saying it's a political distraction well it'll be forgotten in a few days.


  • #55
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Where’s the evidence that Pearse actually engaged in any pedophilloic activities.

    Ruth Dudley Edwards said it so it must be true, has to be, she wouldn't be a liar would she. Wouldn't be like her to try to discredit an Irish revolutionary


  • #56
    s7ryf3925pivug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,999 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Where’s the evidence that Pearse actually engaged in any pedophilloic activities.
    Well like I said some people think he didn’t.
    My take: He chose to be a schoolteacher. That’s just not consistent with the latent paedo angle. It’s like running a sweet shop if you are trying to lose weight.


  • #57
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    It might be more useful to work on legislation to expunge the convictions of people who were prosecuted under those ridiculous laws, as that might actually have a practical use for them. There has to be quite significant numbers of men walking around with criminal convictions for just having consensual sex with another guy in an era when that was still forbidden.

    Surely removing those convictions and ensuring they don't have to explain unfair criminal records would make a hell of a lot more practical sense than an apology?

    Having a bunch of ministers and a taoiseach, none of whom had anything to do with oppressing gay people and many of whom weren't even adults when this stuff was going on, doesn't really change much.

    An apology would need to follow through with something practical afterwards.


  • #58
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    It came from the hopes of increasing the familys social status through marriage, which was practiced in Irish society long before Catholicism.

    I don't know if that is true but I'll take your word for it.
    There was that too of course, which was indeed like killing two birds with the one stone - gay Catholics didn't bring shame on the family, and of course having a priest in the family increased a familys social status, an idea not entirely unlike the numbers of young daughters who 'suddenly' felt the urge to join the Convent out of the blue. At least that's what the neighbours were told, so the family maintained and even grew their social status in their community

    The thing about going back in history is at what point did the above come to be. What happened before that period? Gays were always around from the beginning, unless one erroneously things it came about by a permissive sexual culture - that some would like us to believe.
    It was more of a social class thing than it was ever about whether or not someone was gay. There are many well-known people at the time who were openly gay and wealthy, and that's not a particularly popular narrative, because it betrays the romanticised narrative that suggests Irish society was a collective of ignorant spud munchers in thrall to the Church. They weren't, or at least most people weren't anyway. It was simply a case then as much as it is today of keeping up appearances.

    In you last point you talked about shame. Where did this shame come from? I would say there was no shame until the point that religion came into the equation. And it's interesting you talk about high ranking ppl of wealth- because those ppl you'd expect and still today - are above all of that religious nonsense even though they pay lip service to it for votes. If you got the money you can do what you like - but if your a pauper - praise the lord and do his bidding. I do get your point.


  • #59
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    One eyed Jack wrote: »

    I do think however that it takes an incredible hubris on the part of politicians to apologise on my behalf for something when I haven't actually done anything wrong...

    They are not apologising on your personal behalf? Why would you say that? Do you think they are apologising because of your religion that was responsible for it?
    If you want to put us up on the international stage, Ireland really doesn't fare any better than any other country in the world with respect to the rights and welfare of people who are homosexual. We're still falling well short of where we need to be in terms of action, and insincere apologies too late aren't even coming close to addressing that reality IMO.

    Ireland will never really be on the International stage. The last time we were on the international stage was because of Riverdance in the Eurovison Contest. No one internationally gives a flying f what we're about. But if even a small hint of what has gone here gets to Uganda or Russia then I think apologies and recognition of what has transpired here in the last few years might be worthwhile. Maybe not but it can't hurt.


  • #60
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    Did we ever invoked the law on homosexuality in this state :confused:

    Can't help feeling this is our taoiseach using the office for his own personal crusade..

    That's not what his position or the Dail is for..

    We have the least productive government since the formation of the state.

    How about more work and less of the meaningless apologies there Leo..

    Like explaining why we won't see a reduction in tax in the next budget despite the fact that we're in a full "recovery"..


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  • #61
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,799 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Rennaws wrote: »
    Did we ever invoked the law on homosexuality in this state :confused:
    Yes, there were frequent prosecutions. There are no systematic published statistics that I know of, but for example in response to a Parliamentary Question in 1979 the then Minister for Justice stated that there had been 44 prosecutions in the previous three years. That'd be an average of a bit more than one a month. So not a rare event at all.


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