Ireland Team Talk Thread IX: Grand Slam Champions SEE MOD WARNING POST #1122

errlloyd · 10-06-2018 08:58PM

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Have a sneaking suspicion we'll see Sexton and Marmion start next week. Murray didn't have a great game and gave away that stupid penalty for mouthing off resulting in Schmidt hooking him immediately. Might need to ride the pine for a bit to get his head right, and Marmion is more than capable of stepping up.

I actually wasn't angry at Murray at all for that penalty. It was a very human frustration. I'm glad it got penalised, but still.

sxt · 10-06-2018 09:02PM

Chex LeMeneux wrote: »

Wonder what people's opinions on the centre partnership for next week are? Aki was poor to get caught in possession for the second Aussie try but I think he was our highest ball carrier and lead tackler in the backs. On the other hand thought Henshaw had two poor defensive decisions one leading to a try and one almost leading to one. I think Ringrose at 13 has to come in from an attacking/creative POV at least but I think I would go with Aki at 12 as I think he had the better game overall on Saturday (my obvious Connacht bias not withstanding!!).

Aki is basically been asked by Joe to play as a 7 and a 12. The work rate he goes through is extraordinary

He has been given a specific task and he does it brilliantly.

Dog Botherer · 10-06-2018 09:13PM

errlloyd wrote: »

I actually wasn't angry at Murray at all for that penalty. It was a very human frustration. I'm glad it got penalised, but still.

I completely understand Murray's frustration, but that's the kind of needless penalty Schmidt loathes. Combine that with Murray's poor form and I think Schmidt might want to have a look at his other scrumhalf options.

On form I think Murray is the best 9 in the world. But he's not in form right now.

Chex LeMeneux · 10-06-2018 09:15PM

sxt wrote: »

Aki is basically been asked by Joe to play as a 7 and a 12. The work rate he goes through is extraordinary

He has been given a specific task and he does it brilliantly.

True. Was a necessary evil on Saturday I suppose when we didn't have Leavy, Beirne, Best on the deck. The head to head graphic between Murphy and Pocock around the 65th minute was stark but you're probably talking about going up against 2 of the world's best poachers. In fairness to Henshaw he had one unreal turnover early in the first half. Maybe Joe was more worried about our centre's defensive makeup rather than our creativity.

umop episdn · 10-06-2018 09:16PM

Dog Botherer wrote: »

I completely understand Murray's frustration, but that's the kind of needless penalty Schmidt loathes. Combine that with Murray's poor form and I think Schmidt might want to have a look at his other scrumhalf options.

On form I think Murray is the best 9 in the world. But he's not in form right now.

He's been in form for 6 years...he was no better or worse than anyone else in the 23 on Saturday....not a hope in hell does Joe start anyone other than Murray for the coming game if he wants a chance of winning the series.

The Lost Sheep · 10-06-2018 09:16PM

Chex LeMeneux wrote: »

Think to get the best out of Aki he needs to play at 13. I'm not saying that he's the best 13 for Ireland but I think his skillsets (offloads/footwork/defence) suit 13 more than 12. His weakness (IMO distribution) is highlighted at 12. I'm not sure if he has got a proper go at 13 for Ireland. Some of his best performances for Connacht (obviously a good few steps below international- but even in ECC v Toulouse 2016/17 for example) have come at 13. Think Joe might see him as a crash ball merchant but think he is a little more nuanced than that. It's unlikely to happen before one of the AIs (Italy or Argentina maybe) but perhaps worthy of consideration.

Aki possibly should play 13 but i wouldnt see distribution really being a weakness for him. Dont think Schmidt see's him as crashball as he see's Robbie like that...

Dog Botherer wrote: »

I completely understand Murray's frustration, but that's the kind of needless penalty Schmidt loathes. Combine that with Murray's poor form and I think Schmidt might want to have a look at his other scrumhalf options.

On form I think Murray is the best 9 in the world. But he's not in form right now.

Murray isnt in the best of form now but is he not still by bit the best option to start for Ireland and how we play?

Dog Botherer · 10-06-2018 09:18PM

umop episdn wrote: »

He's been in form for 6 years...he was no better or worse than anyone else in the 23 on Saturday....not a hope in hell does Joe start anyone other than Murray for the coming game if be wants a chance of winning the series.

Don't buy that at all, sorry. Marmion has started and beaten England in Twickenham, hell, he's beaten Australia playing on the wing. If we can't trust our second choice 9 to start inside Sexton on a summer tour, then we're no better off than we were 10 years ago.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Murray isnt in the best of form now but is he not still by bit the best option to start for Ireland and how we play?

He might be, but now is as good a time as any for Schmidt to look at our other options. He was willing to bench Sexton to give Carbery a start, don't see why he wouldn't do the same with Murray.

AbusesToilets · 10-06-2018 09:19PM

Former Former wrote: »

Things like that take time. Leinster have continuity that Ireland don't (and we saw what happened Leinster when they had to field patched up teams late in the season).

Yesterday was the first game after a brief enough build up as a squad, with an out half making his first meaningful start. It was always going to be a bit stuttery.

That said, the midfield combo isn't working. I'd expect to see Ringrose play the next two games with the other lads playing one each inside him.

I get the constraints imposed by a shorter time together, but surely that instinct isn't suddenly forgotten when going from club to Ireland?

I hope having Ringtone back next week will give us a better shape, allow to attack out wide more effectively.

Chex LeMeneux · 10-06-2018 09:19PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Aki possibly should play 13 but i wouldnt see distribution really being a weakness for him. Dont think Schmidt see's him as crashball as he see's Robbie like that...

His distribution in close quarters is excellent (see Stander's try in Twickenham for example). I would class that as a skill similar to offloads. However, I don't think h trusts his own distribution over 10 yards say and that was highlighted in that particular phase on Saturday.

irishbucsfan · 10-06-2018 09:21PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Murray isnt in the best of form now but is he not still by bit the best option to start for Ireland and how we play?

Yes.

And Sexton is by far the best option to start for Ireland. He didn't start last week.

umop episdn · 10-06-2018 09:22PM

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Don't buy that at all, sorry. Marmion has started and beaten England in Twickenham, hell, he's beaten Australia playing on the wing. If we can't trust our second choice 9 to start inside Sexton on a summer tour, then we're no better off than we were 10 years ago.

He might be, but now is as good a time as any for Schmidt to look at our other options. He was willing to bench Sexton to give Carbery a start, don't see why he wouldn't do the same with Murray.

Simple enough, the fall off in ability is too much.
It was as recent as this 6n that posters reckoned Marmion wasn't even 2nd choice.

irishbucsfan · 10-06-2018 09:24PM

umop episdn wrote: »

Simple enough, the fall off in ability is too much.
It was as recent as this 6n that posters reckoned Marmion wasn't even 2nd choice.

The fall off in ability is exactly why we need to look at other options and develop them.

If Murray got injured during the world cup we can't just throw our hands up and say "oh well, nothing we could have done about that." Unless we're happy lying to ourselves.

umop episdn · 10-06-2018 09:28PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The fall off in ability is exactly why we need to look at other options and develop them.

If Murray got injured during the world cup we can't just throw our hands up and say "oh well, nothing we could have done about that." Unless we're happy lying to ourselves.

We've seen what Marmion can do...he's grand... Murray is the best 9 in the NH... you play your best players in the games that count.
Anybody actually believe that Joe is going to drop Murray for Marmion.. genuinely?..

Dog Botherer · 10-06-2018 09:29PM

umop episdn wrote: »

Simple enough, the fall off in ability is too much.
It was as recent as this 6n that posters reckoned Marmion wasn't even 2nd choice.

People were saying that Marmion might be no longer nailed on second choice due to the fact that Luke McGrath was starting for the best team in Europe and Cooney was by some distance Ulster's best player. It didn't have a whole lot to do with Marmion.

The fall off between Murray and Marmion is a lot less than say Sexton and Carbery. But we're almost definitely going to have to play a game in the World Cup without one or both of them, and their backups will always be under-developed if we don't start them in tough matches like these.

umop episdn · 10-06-2018 09:31PM

Dog Botherer wrote: »

People were saying that Marmion might be no longer nailed on second choice due to the fact that Luke McGrath was starting for the best team in Europe and Cooney was by some distance Ulster's best player. It didn't have a whole lot to do with Marmion.

The fall off between Murray and Marmion is a lot less than say Sexton and Carbery. But we're almost definitely going to have to play a game in the World Cup without one or both of them, and their backups will always be under-developed if we don't start them in tough matches like these.

I would say that you have that backwards ... If I had to pick 1 of either Murray or Sexton to play, Murray is the correct choice.

Dog Botherer · 10-06-2018 09:33PM

umop episdn wrote: »

I would say that you have that backwards ... If I had to pick 1 of either Murray or Sexton to play, Murray is the correct choice.

Nuh uh, I'm right and you're wrong. So there.

umop episdn · 10-06-2018 09:34PM

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Nuh uh, I'm right and you're wrong. So there.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057880501/1

Dog Botherer · 10-06-2018 09:38PM

umop episdn wrote: »

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057880501/1

Nice of you to concede defeat.

irishbucsfan · 10-06-2018 09:39PM

umop episdn wrote: »

We've seen what Marmion can do...he's grand... Murray is the best 9 in the NH... you play your best players in the games that count.
Anybody actually believe that Joe is going to drop Murray for Marmion.. genuinely?..

Does anybody believe that Joe is going to drop Sexton for Carbery?

Chex LeMeneux · 10-06-2018 09:43PM

I did think Saturday highlighted the difference in what we ask our 12s to do. Beale gave a distribution masterclass and was directly involved in 2 out of 3 of Australia's tries. At the provinces the only distributing 12s I can think of would be Scannell, Nacewa when he was played there, and I suppose to a lesser extent Ronaldson. I'm surprised that Carberry wasn't given a shot outside Sexton for Leinster. It seems to be the natural progression for up and coming 10s in Ireland until the incumbent moves on.

10-06-2018 09:48PM

umop episdn wrote: »

We've seen what Marmion can do...he's grand... Murray is the best 9 in the NH... you play your best players in the games that count.
Anybody actually believe that Joe is going to drop Murray for Marmion.. genuinely?..

You're arguing in bad faith here. Nobody is talking about dropping Murray or is saying Marmion is better than him, will you give that a rest?

Dubinusa · 10-06-2018 10:24PM

I hope Joe goes with
Healy
Herring
Porter
Hendo
Toner
Beirne
Leavy
Conan
Marmion
Sexton
Stockdale
Aki/Henshaw
Ringrose
Larmour
Conway
Bench. Scannell, jack, Ryan, Ryan, pom, cooney, Byrne, handsome rob.

Clegg · 10-06-2018 10:58PM

Chex LeMeneux wrote: »

I did think Saturday highlighted the difference in what we ask our 12s to do. Beale gave a distribution masterclass and was directly involved in 2 out of 3 of Australia's tries. At the provinces the only distributing 12s I can think of would be Scannell, Nacewa when he was played there, and I suppose to a lesser extent Ronaldson. I'm surprised that Carberry wasn't given a shot outside Sexton for Leinster. It seems to be the natural progression for up and coming 10s in Ireland until the incumbent moves on.

There was no way Carbery would ever get a shot at 12 while Henshaw was playing so well for Leinster. The fact is Henshaw is the best 12 Ireland has. I know Aki plays 12 for Ireland because that's what Schmidt wants. But judging purely on provincial performance Henshaw is the best by a mile.

I also think the role of Ireland's inside centre is a very limited one in that they're not tasked with playmaking. I've seen Henshaw distributing the ball beautifully from centre. He has a lovely range of passing that puts the ball in front of an on running winger. But we don't use our centres the same way with Ireland.

shootermacg · 10-06-2018 10:58PM

Dubinusa wrote: »

I hope Joe goes with
Healy
Herring
Porter
Hendo
Toner
Beirne
Leavy
Conan
Marmion
Sexton
Stockdale
Aki/Henshaw
Ringrose
Larmour
Conway
Bench. Scannell, jack, Ryan, Ryan, pom, cooney, Byrne, handsome rob.

I must say I like the look of Toner / Beirne. But I'd guess he'll start Beirne on the bench at best.

umop episdn · 10-06-2018 11:15PM

Jermaine Big Barium wrote: »

You're arguing in bad faith here. Nobody is talking about dropping Murray or is saying Marmion is better than him, will you give that a rest?

The strawmanning is strong in this one

stephen_n · 11-06-2018 08:47AM

umop episdn wrote: »

Anybody actually believe that Joe is going to drop Murray for Marmion.. genuinely?..

No but there’s a good chance he might rotate them to give Marmion game time with Sexton.

Buer · 11-06-2018 09:05AM

Earls the only doubt after the second test according to reports this morning. Otherwise just standard bumps and bruises to be managed.

Dog Botherer · 11-06-2018 09:09AM

Sexton, Healy, Furlong, Cronin and Leavy rumoured to be starting, with Toner and Conway on the bench, Beirne to make his debut, according to Murray Kinsella.

salmocab · 11-06-2018 09:27AM

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Sexton, Healy, Furlong, Cronin and Leavy rumoured to be starting, with Toner and Conway on the bench, Beirne to make his debut, according to Murray Kinsella.

Makes sense need to win the second to have something to play for in the 3rd

11-06-2018 09:31AM

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Sexton, Healy, Furlong, Cronin and Leavy rumoured to be starting, with Toner and Conway on the bench, Beirne to make his debut, according to Murray Kinsella.

Yeah we kinda have to win this one. I think it's hugely impressive that we've reached a point where against a top 4 team away we can rotate a decent bit and still create more than enough opportunities to win the game.

And it's not like Australia played badly at all - they were terrific and looked good for their top 3 in the world status.

Still though as much as it's been really positive to see the squad depth perform at an incredibly high level it's also important to maintain that winning mentality and for the sake of the series I think Ireland need to throw the kitchen sink at this test in much the same way as Australia threw it at the opening game.

I'll be very interested to see how we neutralise Folau. He was central to Australia creating moments of pressure on us and we had no real answer for it. I'll also be keen to see our scrum perform better, it's an area where many analysts felt we might have an advantage but that never materialised.

Mostly I'd like to see us more clinical than last week. It was the error count and lack of composure in the red zone that contributed most heavily to the loss, if we can cut that out then I think we can put Australia away and look to mix things up again in the final test.

Hopefully we have an answer to Pocock also. I watched all the weekends games and he was the standout performer out of any of the teams.

Ireland Team Talk Thread IX: Grand Slam Champions SEE MOD WARNING POST #1122

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