GDPR and Management Companies/Agents

tnegun · 10-06-2018 09:45AM #1

Sorry if this is the wrong forum. I'm trying to get a copy of a lease from a management agent and they're saying they don't have to provide it to me. I was hoping GDPR my help but they claim the only data they hold under GDPR is my name and address?

The back story is I live in a mixed development of houses and apartments. There is a single company managing both and the costs are shared with a loading for the apartments. Right now lighting is not being fixed despite the majority of houses having paid the fees but the apartments are behind so funds froncone are proping up the other. I'm trying to find out what I'm obliged to contribute to. The management agents just repeat the same story that its all in the lease I signed 12 years ago but I've no record of it.

TheChizler · 10-06-2018 09:47AM

Have you been on to the owners management company? They or their solicitor should have the lease.

Someone point out if I'm wrong but should the land registry have a copy also?

I presume you're a leasehold owner?

CeilingFly · 10-06-2018 09:49AM

They are obliged to give you copies of accounts every year and as a member you are entitled to ask questions.

Become a pain in the ass to them and they'll start providing answers.

tnegun · 10-06-2018 11:17AM

I think the agent act on behalf of the OMC right? I've sent the request to the agent and via them to the OMC both responses where the same basically they sent back my name and address saying this was the total of the information they held on me.
I've got copies of the accounts but it doesn't split out apartment only expenses from house only so can only see that we pay into a common fund and everything is paid from it. I own/live in a house so no lease exists as far as I'm aware but the agent insists I have one and am obliged to pay the management fee, I'm trying to figure out how exactly I'm obliged to pay into a fund that also maintains apartments and covers their insurance costs etc.

whippet · 10-06-2018 11:21AM

The management company and the agents are two totally different entities.

You are a member of the Managemt Company by virtue of owning the property and they would have a copy of the lease.

The agents are the company employed by the management company to preform day to day management activities .. they probably don’t have a copy of the lease.

When you were at the last AGM did you ask questions about the breakdown etc?

Mrs OBumble · 10-06-2018 11:26AM

When you purchased your house - you didn't purchase the house, you purchased a leasehold interest in the complex.

Your solicitor should have given you a copy of the leases you signed and should made you aware of the way the management company is set up before letting you sign. If you didn't keep a copy then it's them you should be going back to.

And if you don't like the way your management company is operating you should get elected onto the committee at the next AGM and change it.

This is nothing to do with GDPR.

Caranica · 10-06-2018 11:32AM

It's very likely that you signed up to paying a percentage of the development budget, as did everyone else. The breakdown of the budget won't be included in any lease.

tnegun · 10-06-2018 11:40AM

Thanks for the replies this far. I specifically remember when buying the house that the solicitor called out the fact the the OMC was setup in such a way that I could choose to pay the fee or not it wasn't enforcable.
I have been paying ever since however recently they have been particularly poor at resonding to requests e.g. broken street lights for months and have blamed a lack of payment of fees from apartment owners for the delays.
When I threatened to stop paying they threatened me with debt collectors etc. and I'm now trying to figure out why they believe I'm obliged to pay and was hoping if they hold a lease or ay other agreement that they would have to provide me a copy under the new GDPR rules?

10-06-2018 11:50AM

tnegun wrote:

Thanks for the replies this far. I specifically remember when buying the house that the solicitor called out the fact the the OMC was setup in such a way that I could choose to pay the fee or not it wasn't enforcable. I have been paying ever since however recently they have been particularly poor at resonding to requests e.g. broken street lights for months and have blamed a lack of payment of fees from apartment owners for the delays. When I threatened to stop paying they threatened me with debt collectors etc. and I'm now trying to figure out why they believe I'm obliged to pay and was hoping if they hold a lease that they would have to provide me a copy under the new GDPR rules?

Go back to the solicitor that handled the sale.

You should have a copy of the lease.

I'm not sure that a copy of the lease falls into the GDPR rules as you already received a copy of the lease when you bought the place. GDPR isn't there to provide you with things that you already have.

tnegun · 10-06-2018 11:59AM

Will go back to the solicitor so, I thought given the time involved they wouldn't have the info any more. Does GDPR not cover any information a company holds on you or could be associated with you? Also if its held for the purpose of collecting fees I thought that would fall under it?

tnegun · 10-06-2018 11:59AM

Will go back to the solicitor so, I thought given the time involved they wouldn't have the info any more. Does GDPR not cover any information a company holds on you or could be associated with you? Also if its held for the purpose of collecting fees I thought that would fall under it?

10-06-2018 12:09PM

You were given a copy of the lease when you bought the property. I was suggesting the original solicitor as they advised you that you don't have to pay. They can also obtain a copy of the lease for you.

tnegun · 10-06-2018 12:32PM

whippet wrote: »

The management company and the agents are two totally different entities.

You are a member of the Managemt Company by virtue of owning the property and they would have a copy of the lease.

The agents are the company employed by the management company to preform day to day management activities .. they probably don’t have a copy of the lease.

When you were at the last AGM did you ask questions about the breakdown etc?

I know they are seperate which is why I sent the request to both, the only way to contact the OMC is via the agent right? Does the agent not hold copies of all docs on behalf of the OMC? The registered office of the OMC is the same as the agents.

I've been to several AGMs but have missed the last 2, I've asked for a breakdown several times but am just sent a copy of the year end accounts and told thats all I'm entitled to.

I'm thinking I'll have to pay the solicitor for the request? Its over 10 years since the house was bought so that would be fair enough but if I can avoid a fee by requesting this info directly from the OMC thats what I wanted to do.

K.Flyer · 10-06-2018 12:53PM

Original solicitor may not have it as they are only obliged to keep copies for a certain period of time (6 years ?), unless they put it in an archive store somewhere.
Whoever sends you your management fee bill should be able to provide you with a percentage breakdown of what each type of dwelling pays towards the overall costs, e.g. apartment in a block with lift etc would usually pay a higher percentage than a single own door house or duplex. This detail should also be noted in your lease. Land registry should have a copy of your lease, solicitor may still have a copy, management company may have a generic non specific copy, but should have the percentage contribution detail for each property.

whippet · 10-06-2018 12:59PM

‘If’ your solicitor advised you at the time of purchase that the management fees were discretionary I’d be going back to them to make a complaint.

Never ever have I come across optional management fees

K.Flyer · 10-06-2018 01:11PM

tnegun wrote: »

[...]
I've been to several AGMs but have missed the last 2, I've asked for a breakdown several times but am just sent a copy of the year end accounts and told thats all I'm entitled to.

They are wrong.

Competition and Consumer Protection Commission (CCPC.ie) - Management Fees

The percentage of the overall management fee that each owner must pay is calculated in various ways, such as the size of the unit, or the type of unit. This should be clear and transparent and information should be provided to all owners. If particular services are only provided to some owners, this should also be clearly explained.

Caranica · 10-06-2018 01:12PM

K.Flyer wrote: »

Whoever sends you your management fee bill should be able to provide you with a percentage breakdown of what each type of dwelling pays towards the overall costs, e.g. apartment in a block with lift etc would usually pay a higher percentage than a single own door house or duplex. This detail should also be noted in your lease. Land registry should have a copy of your lease, solicitor may still have a copy, management company may have a generic non specific copy, but should have the percentage contribution detail for each property.

Not necessarily. In our development fees are apportioned according to unit size rather than services. It's not fair but it's what we signed up to. We have a copy of our lease and it only refers to the percentage of the development budget we pay.

K.Flyer · 10-06-2018 01:16PM

Caranica wrote: »

Not necessarily. In our development fees are apportioned according to unit size rather than services. It's not fair but it's what we signed up to. We have a copy of our lease and it only refers to the percentage of the development budget we pay.

I did say "usually"

see my last post with the quote from ccpc.ie

The percentage should still be transparent and available upon request from the management company.

tnegun · 10-06-2018 01:37PM

Just to clear up the conversation with the solicitor when signing contracts, he asked was I aware that there was a management fee and then told me that the way its setup its entirely up to you if you pay it as hasn’t been done properly and is unenforceable in law.
I never thought twice about it again and have been paying ever since, its only recently when I threatened to stop paying until they resolved the lighting and some other issues they threatened a legal response. I then asked them to demonstrate how I was obliged to pay the fee and they refused referring me back to my solicitor to inspect the lease, so I then asked them to forward me everything they had under the new GDPR regulations and was pretty much stonewalled.

If I understand correctly to get a copy of this lease/contract my choices are
1. Back to the original solicitor
2. Land Registry

Also there is no obligation on the OMC or the agent to provide this info under GDPR and I can request a detailed breakdown of the fee as per the link provided by K. Flyer

Mrs OBumble · 10-06-2018 02:55PM

GDPR has made changes to the roles involved in data collection and storage, and to the penalties if it is found that someone has broken the rules. It has not made fundamental changes to the rules about collecting data, or to your right to access data about you. Essentially it is a red-herring in this discussion. If you continue bringing it up, you will simply make the management company spend more cash on ensuring that they are 100% compliant - instead of on fixing things in the complex.

I would imagine that the % is 100% transparently set out in the lease that you signed.

I am very surprised that your solicitor allowed you to sign a lease that is so defective that effectively paying fees is optional because they cannot be enforced: especially with apartments (and thus probably lifts) in the complex, a clear sustainable way of maintaining a sinking fund and paying for public liability insurance is pretty important to have in place.

tnegun · 10-06-2018 03:18PM

I know its not the purpose of GDPR and was just hoping a GDPR request would cover releasing this lease/contract as the agent has refused every request for it. I hear what you're saying too Mrs O'B but I can't understand why they just won't just send a copy if it exists. I don't think any % is set as it has never been mentioned at any agm just 2 figures given, one for houses and one for apartments and that the accountants have calculated it but I could be wrong.
Am travelling but right now but will go through everything I've got in search of it again. I'm pretty good keeping that sort of stuff and I can't find any reference so assumed it was something I had no copy of.

CeilingFly · 10-06-2018 03:43PM

I don't think gdpr will be of any benefit. The data they hold on you will be name and address and what you've paid.

Due to the hype of gdpr people think it's more than it is.

The omc / management charge is for the common areas. When you own the house, your fee will only contribute to public liability insurance for common areas, landscaping , lighting and probably a sinking fund for road/footpath repairs.
From experience, I'd suspect its about €500-€700 per house.

Apartments are different. The common areas include the corridors and insurance also covers the building itself. You also have higher electricity costs and probably annual service costs for fire alarms etc.

Apartment management fees are usually from about €1500 upwards

Unfortunately, too many apartment occupiers simply don't understand the charge and don't pay and management companies do little about it leaving to a situation like the op.

But there has to be an agm and you have to get information - remember you are a shareholder.

4ensic15 · 10-06-2018 06:05PM

CeilingFly wrote: »

I don't think gdpr will be of any benefit. The data they hold on you will be name and address and what you've paid.

Due to the hype of gdpr people think it's more than it is.

The omc / management charge is for the common areas. When you own the house, your fee will only contribute to public liability insurance for common areas, landscaping , lighting and probably a sinking fund for road/footpath repairs.
From experience, I'd suspect its about €500-€700 per house.

Apartments are different. The common areas include the corridors and insurance also covers the building itself. You also have higher electricity costs and probably annual service costs for fire alarms etc.

Apartment management fees are usually from about €1500 upwards

Unfortunately, too many apartment occupiers simply don't understand the charge and don't pay and management companies do little about it leaving to a situation like the op.

But there has to be an agm and you have to get information - remember you are a shareholder.

The management company should hold the counterpart of the lease and copies of all bills issued and copies of receipts for payments made, at least within the last 6 years. They couldn't sue for management fees without the lease.

davo10 · 11-06-2018 02:12AM

I was a director in a MC for 10 years and this scenario came up a lot, shortfalls in money available due to non payment by some owners and understandable discontentment in those who did pay but didn't benefit from the services the MC was supposed to provide.

There were many requests for the documents which required that subscriptions be paid and for the breakdown of fees. The requirement to pay was a condition of the sale, it will be in the contract. What the op wants is the covenants of the management company, these are mutual agreements between the MC and the property owner, they outline the way the fees are broken down.

Op, again I know this from experience, a MC can apply to the court for a lien to be placed on your property for fees not paid and they will not supply the necessary documentation should you decide to sell until any balance is settled. While the names of those who do not pay cannot be made public at the AGM, you could ask what action is being taken to collect outstanding fees.

Unfortunately it is the reality that sometimes there is not enough money in the pot to pay for all necessary repairs and services, even with a sinking fund which presumably the same owners refused to pay into. The directors are fellow owners, effectively and action you take is taken against yourself as an owner and member of the MC.

tnegun · 12-06-2018 10:23PM

Spoke to the solicitor who handled the sale and he reckons any lease or contract would be with the bank as part of the title/deeds and he has nothing else on file.
@davo10 I get what you're saying but any ideas why the agent will not forward me a copy of the agreement between myself and the OMC. It seems to me that it is a simple request that should be very easy to complete? In lieu of it I've also requested a breakdown of how the fees are calulcated per unit too but have yet to hear back.

13-06-2018 07:59AM

tnegun wrote:

Spoke to the solicitor who handled the sale and he reckons any lease or contract would be with the bank as part of the title/deeds and he has nothing else on file. @davo10 I get what you're saying but any ideas why the agent will not forward me a copy of the agreement between myself and the OMC. It seems to me that it is a simple request that should be very easy to complete? In lieu of it I've also requested a breakdown of how the fees are calulcated per unit too but have yet to hear back.

Sometimes physical copies are is storage. The bigger the company the more stuff in storage. It takes time & money to get this stuff. From their point of view you already have a lease & why should they go to the time & trouble to dig out their copy. Not saying that it's right but they know that you have a copy somewhere.

Usually your solicitor photocopies the lease before your bank get it. I'd have thought it unusual for the solicitor not to make a copy for you to keep in your home. You have to live by the conditions of the lease after all. A copy close at hand would be the norm imo

4ensic15 · 13-06-2018 08:00AM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Sometimes physical copies are is storage. The bigger the company the more stuff in storage. It takes time & money to get this stuff. From their point of view you already have a lease & why should they go to the time & trouble to dig out their copy. Not saying that it's right but they know that you have a copy somewhere.

Usually your solicitor photocopies the lease before your bank get it. I'd have thought it unusual for the solicitor not to make a copy for you to keep in your home. You have to live by the conditions of the lease after all. A copy close at hand would be the norm imo

Too much trouble is not a reason to withhold data.

TheChizler · 13-06-2018 08:31AM

tnegun wrote: »

any ideas why the agent will not forward me a copy of the agreement between myself and the OMC.

It's not even likely that the agent even has a copy, you might have to bypass them and get on to the OMC directors directly.

13-06-2018 10:02AM

4ensic15 wrote:

Too much trouble is not a reason to withhold data.

OP has a copy of said data. He has a lease somewhere. There is nothing stopping him requesting a copy from his lender. This doesn't fall under the GDPR.

tnegun · 13-06-2018 03:59PM

OK will follow up with the bank and see what they say. I've checked the land registry and my title level is freehold so can a lease exist? Or is it the covenant's idea that was also suggested

hullaballoo · 13-06-2018 04:05PM

4ensic15 wrote: »

Too much trouble is not a reason to withhold data.

According to the GDPR:

"Where requests from a data subject are manifestly unfounded or excessive, in particular because of their repetitive character, the controller may either:
...[charge a fair fee or]...
refuse to act on the request."

Basically, too much trouble is a perfectly good reason to withhold data.

GDPR and Management Companies/Agents

Comments