GDPR and Management Companies/Agents

tnegun

Sorry if this is the wrong forum. I'm trying to get a copy of a lease from a management agent and they're saying they don't have to provide it to me. I was hoping GDPR my help but they claim the only data they hold under GDPR is my name and address?

The back story is I live in a mixed development of houses and apartments. There is a single company managing both and the costs are shared with a loading for the apartments. Right now lighting is not being fixed despite the majority of houses having paid the fees but the apartments are behind so funds froncone are proping up the other. I'm trying to find out what I'm obliged to contribute to. The management agents just repeat the same story that its all in the lease I signed 12 years ago but I've no record of it.

TheChizler

Have you been on to the owners management company? They or their solicitor should have the lease.

Someone point out if I'm wrong but should the land registry have a copy also?

I presume you're a leasehold owner?

CeilingFly

They are obliged to give you copies of accounts every year and as a member you are entitled to ask questions.

Become a pain in the ass to them and they'll start providing answers.

tnegun

I think the agent act on behalf of the OMC right? I've sent the request to the agent and via them to the OMC both responses where the same basically they sent back my name and address saying this was the total of the information they held on me.
I've got copies of the accounts but it doesn't split out apartment only expenses from house only so can only see that we pay into a common fund and everything is paid from it. I own/live in a house so no lease exists as far as I'm aware but the agent insists I have one and am obliged to pay the management fee, I'm trying to figure out how exactly I'm obliged to pay into a fund that also maintains apartments and covers their insurance costs etc.

whippet

The management company and the agents are two totally different entities.

You are a member of the Managemt Company by virtue of owning the property and they would have a copy of the lease.

The agents are the company employed by the management company to preform day to day management activities .. they probably don’t have a copy of the lease.

When you were at the last AGM did you ask questions about the breakdown etc?

Mrs OBumble

When you purchased your house - you didn't purchase the house, you purchased a leasehold interest in the complex.

Your solicitor should have given you a copy of the leases you signed and should made you aware of the way the management company is set up before letting you sign. If you didn't keep a copy then it's them you should be going back to.

And if you don't like the way your management company is operating you should get elected onto the committee at the next AGM and change it.

This is nothing to do with GDPR.

Caranica

It's very likely that you signed up to paying a percentage of the development budget, as did everyone else. The breakdown of the budget won't be included in any lease.

tnegun

Thanks for the replies this far. I specifically remember when buying the house that the solicitor called out the fact the the OMC was setup in such a way that I could choose to pay the fee or not it wasn't enforcable.
I have been paying ever since however recently they have been particularly poor at resonding to requests e.g. broken street lights for months and have blamed a lack of payment of fees from apartment owners for the delays.
When I threatened to stop paying they threatened me with debt collectors etc. and I'm now trying to figure out why they believe I'm obliged to pay and was hoping if they hold a lease or ay other agreement that they would have to provide me a copy under the new GDPR rules?

Sleeper12

tnegun wrote:

Thanks for the replies this far. I specifically remember when buying the house that the solicitor called out the fact the the OMC was setup in such a way that I could choose to pay the fee or not it wasn't enforcable. I have been paying ever since however recently they have been particularly poor at resonding to requests e.g. broken street lights for months and have blamed a lack of payment of fees from apartment owners for the delays. When I threatened to stop paying they threatened me with debt collectors etc. and I'm now trying to figure out why they believe I'm obliged to pay and was hoping if they hold a lease that they would have to provide me a copy under the new GDPR rules?

Go back to the solicitor that handled the sale.

You should have a copy of the lease.

I'm not sure that a copy of the lease falls into the GDPR rules as you already received a copy of the lease when you bought the place. GDPR isn't there to provide you with things that you already have.

tnegun

Will go back to the solicitor so, I thought given the time involved they wouldn't have the info any more. Does GDPR not cover any information a company holds on you or could be associated with you? Also if its held for the purpose of collecting fees I thought that would fall under it?

tnegun

Will go back to the solicitor so, I thought given the time involved they wouldn't have the info any more. Does GDPR not cover any information a company holds on you or could be associated with you? Also if its held for the purpose of collecting fees I thought that would fall under it?

Sleeper12

You were given a copy of the lease when you bought the property. I was suggesting the original solicitor as they advised you that you don't have to pay. They can also obtain a copy of the lease for you.

tnegun

whippet wrote: »

The management company and the agents are two totally different entities.

You are a member of the Managemt Company by virtue of owning the property and they would have a copy of the lease.

The agents are the company employed by the management company to preform day to day management activities .. they probably don’t have a copy of the lease.

When you were at the last AGM did you ask questions about the breakdown etc?

I know they are seperate which is why I sent the request to both, the only way to contact the OMC is via the agent right? Does the agent not hold copies of all docs on behalf of the OMC? The registered office of the OMC is the same as the agents.



I've been to several AGMs but have missed the last 2, I've asked for a breakdown several times but am just sent a copy of the year end accounts and told thats all I'm entitled to.



I'm thinking I'll have to pay the solicitor for the request? Its over 10 years since the house was bought so that would be fair enough but if I can avoid a fee by requesting this info directly from the OMC thats what I wanted to do.

K.Flyer

Original solicitor may not have it as they are only obliged to keep copies for a certain period of time (6 years ?), unless they put it in an archive store somewhere.
Whoever sends you your management fee bill should be able to provide you with a percentage breakdown of what each type of dwelling pays towards the overall costs, e.g. apartment in a block with lift etc would usually pay a higher percentage than a single own door house or duplex. This detail should also be noted in your lease. Land registry should have a copy of your lease, solicitor may still have a copy, management company may have a generic non specific copy, but should have the percentage contribution detail for each property.

whippet

‘If’ your solicitor advised you at the time of purchase that the management fees were discretionary I’d be going back to them to make a complaint.

Never ever have I come across optional management fees

K.Flyer

tnegun wrote: »

[...]
I've been to several AGMs but have missed the last 2, I've asked for a breakdown several times but am just sent a copy of the year end accounts and told thats all I'm entitled to.

They are wrong.

Competition and Consumer Protection Commission (CCPC.ie) - Management Fees

The percentage of the overall management fee that each owner must pay is calculated in various ways, such as the size of the unit, or the type of unit. This should be clear and transparent and information should be provided to all owners. If particular services are only provided to some owners, this should also be clearly explained.

Caranica

K.Flyer wrote: »

Whoever sends you your management fee bill should be able to provide you with a percentage breakdown of what each type of dwelling pays towards the overall costs, e.g. apartment in a block with lift etc would usually pay a higher percentage than a single own door house or duplex. This detail should also be noted in your lease. Land registry should have a copy of your lease, solicitor may still have a copy, management company may have a generic non specific copy, but should have the percentage contribution detail for each property.

Not necessarily. In our development fees are apportioned according to unit size rather than services. It's not fair but it's what we signed up to. We have a copy of our lease and it only refers to the percentage of the development budget we pay.

K.Flyer

Caranica wrote: »

Not necessarily. In our development fees are apportioned according to unit size rather than services. It's not fair but it's what we signed up to. We have a copy of our lease and it only refers to the percentage of the development budget we pay.

I did say "usually" see my last post with the quote from ccpc.ie

The percentage should still be transparent and available upon request from the management company.

tnegun

Just to clear up the conversation with the solicitor when signing contracts, he asked was I aware that there was a management fee and then told me that the way its setup its entirely up to you if you pay it as hasn’t been done properly and is unenforceable in law.
I never thought twice about it again and have been paying ever since, its only recently when I threatened to stop paying until they resolved the lighting and some other issues they threatened a legal response. I then asked them to demonstrate how I was obliged to pay the fee and they refused referring me back to my solicitor to inspect the lease, so I then asked them to forward me everything they had under the new GDPR regulations and was pretty much stonewalled.

If I understand correctly to get a copy of this lease/contract my choices are
1. Back to the original solicitor
2. Land Registry

Also there is no obligation on the OMC or the agent to provide this info under GDPR and I can request a detailed breakdown of the fee as per the link provided by K. Flyer

Mrs OBumble

GDPR has made changes to the roles involved in data collection and storage, and to the penalties if it is found that someone has broken the rules. It has not made fundamental changes to the rules about collecting data, or to your right to access data about you. Essentially it is a red-herring in this discussion. If you continue bringing it up, you will simply make the management company spend more cash on ensuring that they are 100% compliant - instead of on fixing things in the complex.

I would imagine that the % is 100% transparently set out in the lease that you signed.

I am very surprised that your solicitor allowed you to sign a lease that is so defective that effectively paying fees is optional because they cannot be enforced: especially with apartments (and thus probably lifts) in the complex, a clear sustainable way of maintaining a sinking fund and paying for public liability insurance is pretty important to have in place.

tnegun

I know its not the purpose of GDPR and was just hoping a GDPR request would cover releasing this lease/contract as the agent has refused every request for it. I hear what you're saying too Mrs O'B but I can't understand why they just won't just send a copy if it exists. I don't think any % is set as it has never been mentioned at any agm just 2 figures given, one for houses and one for apartments and that the accountants have calculated it but I could be wrong.
Am travelling but right now but will go through everything I've got in search of it again. I'm pretty good keeping that sort of stuff and I can't find any reference so assumed it was something I had no copy of.

CeilingFly

I don't think gdpr will be of any benefit. The data they hold on you will be name and address and what you've paid.

Due to the hype of gdpr people think it's more than it is.


The omc / management charge is for the common areas. When you own the house, your fee will only contribute to public liability insurance for common areas, landscaping , lighting and probably a sinking fund for road/footpath repairs.
From experience, I'd suspect its about €500-€700 per house.

Apartments are different. The common areas include the corridors and insurance also covers the building itself. You also have higher electricity costs and probably annual service costs for fire alarms etc.

Apartment management fees are usually from about €1500 upwards

Unfortunately, too many apartment occupiers simply don't understand the charge and don't pay and management companies do little about it leaving to a situation like the op.


But there has to be an agm and you have to get information - remember you are a shareholder.

4ensic15

CeilingFly wrote: »

I don't think gdpr will be of any benefit. The data they hold on you will be name and address and what you've paid.

Due to the hype of gdpr people think it's more than it is.


The omc / management charge is for the common areas. When you own the house, your fee will only contribute to public liability insurance for common areas, landscaping , lighting and probably a sinking fund for road/footpath repairs.
From experience, I'd suspect its about €500-€700 per house.

Apartments are different. The common areas include the corridors and insurance also covers the building itself. You also have higher electricity costs and probably annual service costs for fire alarms etc.

Apartment management fees are usually from about €1500 upwards

Unfortunately, too many apartment occupiers simply don't understand the charge and don't pay and management companies do little about it leaving to a situation like the op.


But there has to be an agm and you have to get information - remember you are a shareholder.

The management company should hold the counterpart of the lease and copies of all bills issued and copies of receipts for payments made, at least within the last 6 years. They couldn't sue for management fees without the lease.

davo10

I was a director in a MC for 10 years and this scenario came up a lot, shortfalls in money available due to non payment by some owners and understandable discontentment in those who did pay but didn't benefit from the services the MC was supposed to provide.

There were many requests for the documents which required that subscriptions be paid and for the breakdown of fees. The requirement to pay was a condition of the sale, it will be in the contract. What the op wants is the covenants of the management company, these are mutual agreements between the MC and the property owner, they outline the way the fees are broken down.

Op, again I know this from experience, a MC can apply to the court for a lien to be placed on your property for fees not paid and they will not supply the necessary documentation should you decide to sell until any balance is settled. While the names of those who do not pay cannot be made public at the AGM, you could ask what action is being taken to collect outstanding fees.

Unfortunately it is the reality that sometimes there is not enough money in the pot to pay for all necessary repairs and services, even with a sinking fund which presumably the same owners refused to pay into. The directors are fellow owners, effectively and action you take is taken against yourself as an owner and member of the MC.

tnegun

Spoke to the solicitor who handled the sale and he reckons any lease or contract would be with the bank as part of the title/deeds and he has nothing else on file.
@davo10 I get what you're saying but any ideas why the agent will not forward me a copy of the agreement between myself and the OMC. It seems to me that it is a simple request that should be very easy to complete? In lieu of it I've also requested a breakdown of how the fees are calulcated per unit too but have yet to hear back.

Sleeper12

tnegun wrote:

Spoke to the solicitor who handled the sale and he reckons any lease or contract would be with the bank as part of the title/deeds and he has nothing else on file. @davo10 I get what you're saying but any ideas why the agent will not forward me a copy of the agreement between myself and the OMC. It seems to me that it is a simple request that should be very easy to complete? In lieu of it I've also requested a breakdown of how the fees are calulcated per unit too but have yet to hear back.

Sometimes physical copies are is storage. The bigger the company the more stuff in storage. It takes time & money to get this stuff. From their point of view you already have a lease & why should they go to the time & trouble to dig out their copy. Not saying that it's right but they know that you have a copy somewhere.

Usually your solicitor photocopies the lease before your bank get it. I'd have thought it unusual for the solicitor not to make a copy for you to keep in your home. You have to live by the conditions of the lease after all. A copy close at hand would be the norm imo

4ensic15

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Sometimes physical copies are is storage. The bigger the company the more stuff in storage. It takes time & money to get this stuff. From their point of view you already have a lease & why should they go to the time & trouble to dig out their copy. Not saying that it's right but they know that you have a copy somewhere.

Usually your solicitor photocopies the lease before your bank get it. I'd have thought it unusual for the solicitor not to make a copy for you to keep in your home. You have to live by the conditions of the lease after all. A copy close at hand would be the norm imo

Too much trouble is not a reason to withhold data.

TheChizler

tnegun wrote: »

any ideas why the agent will not forward me a copy of the agreement between myself and the OMC.

It's not even likely that the agent even has a copy, you might have to bypass them and get on to the OMC directors directly.

Sleeper12

4ensic15 wrote:

Too much trouble is not a reason to withhold data.

OP has a copy of said data. He has a lease somewhere. There is nothing stopping him requesting a copy from his lender. This doesn't fall under the GDPR.

tnegun

OK will follow up with the bank and see what they say. I've checked the land registry and my title level is freehold so can a lease exist? Or is it the covenant's idea that was also suggested

hullaballoo

4ensic15 wrote: »

Too much trouble is not a reason to withhold data.

According to the GDPR:

"Where requests from a data subject are manifestly unfounded or excessive, in particular because of their repetitive character, the controller may either:
...[charge a fair fee or]...
refuse to act on the request."

Basically, too much trouble is a perfectly good reason to withhold data.

Sleeper12

hullaballoo wrote:

Basically, too much trouble is a perfectly good reason to withhold data.

Some people are expecting too much from GDPR. It's not there for you to get a free copy of your lease or anything like that. That is definitely trying to exploit the legislation.

tnegun

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Some people are expecting too much from GDPR. It's not there for you to get a free copy of your lease or anything like that. That is definitely trying to exploit the legislation.

I never asked for a free copy of anything. I just want a copy of it and as the agent referred me to it I requested a copy from them if they had said it will cost €50 but you should have a copy some where that would of been fine but they point blank refused to provide a copy and I originally asked the question as I though GDPR might help but obviously not.

Sleeper12

tnegun wrote:

I never asked for a free copy of anything. I just want a copy of it and as the agent referred me to it I requested a copy from them if they had said it will cost €50 but you should have a copy some where that would of been fine but they point blank refused to provide a copy and I originally asked the question as I though GDPR might help but obviously not.

My point is that it isn't a GDPR issue. It's not up to the management company to give you a copy of the lease. You are asking the wrong people & they don't want to be helpful. There are proper channels to go through. You do have a copy of the lease. If your lending provider has it they will be happy to copy it for you

tnegun

Does the fact that the title is freehold have any impact on the existence of a lease? What would the lease be for?

TheChizler

tnegun wrote: »

Does the fact that the title is freehold have any impact on the existence of a lease? What would the lease be for?

I wonder is that the mistake your solicitor was referring to. I have heard that the land registry web maps aren't always accurate though.

tnegun

Maybe, I remember the solicitor saying something like Ireland was unusual as I owed all the ground to the centre of the earth and the space above the ground or something to that effect and that some lord retained hunting rights on the land too. Honestly I never heard of a lease until the agent started telling me to refer to it. If the registry is correct and I'm freehold could a lease exist for anything?

Carawaystick

You might need a way to get from your freehold house to the public road, across the OMC's land. That might be the "lease" subject.

I would say the gdpr does oblige a company to give a copy of data to a person, where the person might have another copy, in the first case if the persons copy was not obtained under data protection rules, and secondly if it is a repeated dp request, a reasonable interval has applied.

tnegun

So I'm potentially leasing access to the estate? Is this a common arrangement?

Caranica

Leases for apartments, covenants for houses in a mixed use development.

It still remains:
NOT a GDPR issue
NOT the management agents' responsibility to provide you with a copy of something you already have and
In your best interests to know the rights and responsibilities of owning in a mixed use development

Peregrinus

tnegun wrote: »

I never asked for a free copy of anything. I just want a copy of it and as the agent referred me to it I requested a copy from them if they had said it will cost €50 but you should have a copy some where that would of been fine but they point blank refused to provide a copy and I originally asked the question as I though GDPR might help but obviously not.

You've already got a copy of it. You signed it, remember. You've probably given your copy to your bank, as part of the documents they hold in connection with the mortgage they granted you. Why don't you go and ask your own bank for your own copy of your own lease, rather than demanding the other party to the lease show you his copy?

Robbo

You'll also be able to get a copy of the instrument from the PRAI for €40.

This may take 4-8 weeks (or more if the transaction was some time ago) as they generally have to dig the original deeds out of an archiving facility.

Claw Hammer

Of course it's a GDPR issue. It is personal data which the management company is holding. They are not allowed to charge for it for copies of. Complained to the Data Protection Commissioner if it is not forthcoming.

TheChizler

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Of course it's a GDPR issue. It is personal data which the management company is holding. They are not allowed to charge for it for copies of. Complained to the Data Protection Commissioner if it is not forthcoming.

Is a lease personal data? As in the contents of the lease? Sure your name and address are on it, but I don't think that makes every other term and sentence in it personal data. If it was a GDPR issue (and people more expert than me have said it's not) would they get away with saying, "the personal data we have on you is your name X and address Y which was on the lease".

Claw Hammer

TheChizler wrote: »

Is a lease personal data? As in the contents of the lease? Sure your name and address are on it, but I don't think that makes every other term and sentence in it personal data. If it was a GDPR issue (and people more expert than me have said it's not) would they get away with saying, "the personal data we have on you is your name X and address Y which was on the lease".

Of course its personal data. It identifies the person named in the document. They can't simply say your name is on a document without providing you with the document. It has been held that an exam script is personal data of the candidate and that the examiners notes on the same script are also personal data of the examiner. At least which names a person and contains that person signature is patently personal data

Sleeper12

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Of course its personal data. It identifies the person named in the document. They can't simply say your name is on a document without providing you with the document. It has been held that an exam script is personal data of the candidate and that the examiners notes on the same script are also personal data of the examiner. At least which names a person and contains that person signature is patently personal data

Your name is on 2 pages out of maybe 40 pages. Only 2 pages contain your personal data


Regardless on your opinion of a lease being covered under GDPR this legislation doesn't come into OPs case at all as he's described how he applied for it

Claw Hammer

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Your name is on 2 pages out of maybe 40 pages. Only 2 pages contain your personal data


Regardless on your opinion of a lease being covered under GDPR this legislation doesn't come into OPs case at all as he's described how he applied for it

All the O/P has to do is make a formal data access request. The lease is effectively one document, irrespective of the number of pages it contains. If the management company refuse to provide them with a copy of the lease having made a formal request, the O/P can complain to the Data Protection Commissioner. It is nonsense of the Management Company to say they only hold the name and address.

TheChizler

Claw Hammer wrote: »

All the O/P has to do is make a formal data access request. The lease is effectively one document, irrespective of the number of pages it contains. If the management company refuse to provide them with a copy of the lease having made a formal request, the O/P can complain to the Data Protection Commissioner. It is nonsense of the Management Company to say they only hold the name and address.

The phone book is one document. The phone book contains my name, phone number, and address. Are the phone book company obliged to supply me with a full copy of the phone book since it contains some of my personal data? I think you're making a pretty big claim that an entire document becomes personal data because of the inclusion of a small amount of what is unarguably personal data. Maybe the lease has more to do with the individual and could be ruled to be personal data in its entirety (seeing as the OP doesn't know what's in it it can't be too personal! ), but I think it's too simplistic to say of course it's personal data or nonsense that it's not.

This might be veering off topic, but I found a ruling from an English appeals court (Durant vs. Financial Services Authority) which said:

“Where an individual’s name appears in information the name will only be ‘personal data’ where its inclusion in the information affects the named individual’s privacy. Simply because an individual’s name appears on a document, the information contained in that document will not necessarily be personal data about the named individual. It is more likely that an individual’s name will be ‘personal data’ where the name appears together with other information about the named individual such as address, telephone number or information regarding his hobbies”.

Now I have no clue whether this is even relevant under current legislation in the UK, never mind here. But I think the context was that whether a document was personal data or not was more to do with the focus of the document rather than who was named on it. Anyone have an opinion?

Sleeper12

Claw Hammer wrote: »

All the O/P has to do is make a formal data access request. The lease is effectively one document, irrespective of the number of pages it contains. If the management company refuse to provide them with a copy of the lease having made a formal request, the O/P can complain to the Data Protection Commissioner. It is nonsense of the Management Company to say they only hold the name and address.

I totally disagree that the entire document is his personal data. This may be thrashed out in court in years to come but in the meantime it's of no help to OP.



The management company only has his name & address


I don't see why everyone is getting bogged down on GDPR. This problem has come up & was resolved thousands of times before GDPR. Simplest solution is OP has a copy himself. He believes his lending institution has it. They will furnish him with a copy as they have done for decades. It's that simple.


Go down the GDPR route. He puts in a request in writing & the agent has 30 days to furnish him with his data. He then gets his name & address delivered to him on a piece of paper. OK so they don't have it. Lets try the management company in writing. 30 Days later they may or may not have a copy of the lease so after a total of 60 to 70 days OP might have his name & address on two sheets of paper.


The simplest route is the tried & tested route Find his own copy

tnegun

Thanks for all the replies guys for what its worth I checked with the Data Protection Officer in work and she was of the opinion that a accessing a copy of a lease or contract would fall under the GDPR.
Also I've gone through everything I have since the purchase of the house and I have receipts for the deposit, solicitors fees, first round of management fees etc. but nothing like a lease or deed of covenant.
I'm just about to contact the bank so I believe I'm looking for a deed of covenant and not a lease right? Given the title is freehold and I own a house and not an apartment?

Claw Hammer

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I totally disagree that the entire document is his personal data. This may be thrashed out in court in years to come but in the meantime it's of no help to OP.



The management company only has his name & address


I don't see why everyone is getting bogged down on GDPR. This problem has come up & was resolved thousands of times before GDPR. Simplest solution is OP has a copy himself. He believes his lending institution has it. They will furnish him with a copy as they have done for decades. It's that simple.


Go down the GDPR route. He puts in a request in writing & the agent has 30 days to furnish him with his data. He then gets his name & address delivered to him on a piece of paper. OK so they don't have it. Lets try the management company in writing. 30 Days later they may or may not have a copy of the lease so after a total of 60 to 70 days OP might have his name & address on two sheets of paper.


The simplest route is the tried & tested route Find his own copy

How could the management company only have name and address? They would have to have a record of payments or nonpayments as the case may be going back at least six years. They would also have to have copies of invoices sent for management fees, including reminder letters.
If somebody puts your name in a telephone directory you are entitled to a copy of it, subject to it being redacted in respect of the other entries in the same document which contain personal data of other individuals.