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Statutory Regulation of Counselling & Psychotherapy (Mod note in OP)

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  • I'm sure you're not alone in feeling like that, but I don't think it's so black and white, is it?

    "But the most rigorous of recent outcome studies indicate that, at the end of the day, it is the quality of the therapist-patient relationship that is the primary curative factor in psychotherapy."

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/suffer-the-children/201201/is-psychotherapy-placebo




  • I'm sure you're not alone in feeling like that, but I don't think it's so black and white, is it?

    "But the most rigorous of recent outcome studies indicate that, at the end of the day, it is the quality of the therapist-patient relationship that is the primary curative factor in psychotherapy."

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/suffer-the-children/201201/is-psychotherapy-placebo

    At the core of the therapeutic work is the relationship. This I wholeheartedly believe. However attending a psychotherapist isn't the same as having a trusted friend listen to you. There needs to be a formal foundation, a framework in place. How will you manage a client who presents with schizoid-affective disorder for example if all you have at your disposal is empathy and understanding? Or deal with the nuances that arise from transference and counter-transference? Then there is the therapists own process. A training course must be rigorous in preparing people to handle the dark and upsetting nature of others experiences. So it's vital that therapists are self-aware and know their own issues before trying to support a client.




  • How will you manage a client who presents with schizoid-affective disorder for example if all you have at your disposal is empathy and understanding?

    Referal! Ha ha, I'm being facetious.

    No no, you are right, of course you are right. It's a really important responsibility and why not try to have every tool available to you.




  • How will you manage a client who presents with schizoid-affective disorder for example if all you have at your disposal is empathy and understanding?

    Referal! Ha ha, I'm being facetious.

    No no, you are right, of course you are right. It's a really important responsibility and why not try to have every tool available to you.

    Well it is perfectly reasonable to refer on a client if you feel they would be better suited to a different therapist or type of treatment. The frequency of that happening should be fairly low because It's not the best attitude to begin your career with "I'll refer on the complex cases". Like you say it's best to have every tool available to you.




  • From my experience, I feel very strongly that people qualified in counseling or psychotherapy only - with no psychology background - need to be very aware of their limitations in dealing with mental health illnesses, such as bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, PTSD, and that kind of thing. I have no problem with people who pursue this field as long as they can truly assess how helpful they can be to someone presenting with these kinds of issues. The effects that a well-intentioned but under-qualified counselor can have on someone suffering a more extensive mental health issue can be catastrophic and extremely traumatising. I personally started a Psychology conversion dip a few years ago with the aim of eventually going for couns. psych in Trinity, but the financial side of things and time commitment ( at least 7 years) was too great. I was advised to try to counseling BA and I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I wanted to come out of my study knowing that I was fully equipped to deal with any patient that presented to me, and for that I felt I needed a psych degree and most certainly a couns. psych MA or doctorate.


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  • Vela wrote: »
    psychology BA good, counselling BA bad .


    But you only do like one module in psychopathology in a psych undergraduate. Why do you think that would make you more qualified? One single module on psychopathology and a lot of modules about things like learning and memory and data analysis and hunger and reaction time and how mice run through mazes and what happens when you tickle rats or deprive them of sleep.

    Did you try reading university textbooks on psychology and watch some free lectures online, you seem to think it is something it is not. Psychology is a massive, broad subject. A lot of it is about the brain, not the mind, not cognition, not emotion, not individual differences, though these are parts of it. You also study pharmacology, memory, intelligence testing, perception (not what it sounds like), language etc. etc. Things that actually relate to counselling are very small parts of it, it is very very zoomed out.

    Anyway who am I to tell you anything, I didn't finish my psych course because it was so far away from anything I actually wanted to do, despite being fascinating. A psych conversion course with DBS isn't that expensive, and is 2 years, it's a DIP that gets people into certain masters, but not a proper conversion course. And there is a €4000 a year a part time 4 year psych undergraduate with NUI, affordable because you can work and study at the same time.


    Or you could go back to the other one, 7 years isn't a long time in a field where there is a bias against young people anyway :)




  • But you only do like one module in psychopathology in a psych undergraduate. Why do you think that would make you more qualified? One single module on psychopathology and a lot of modules about things like learning and memory and data analysis and hunger and reaction time and how mice run through mazes and what happens when you tickle rats or deprive them of sleep.

    Did you try reading university textbooks on psychology and watch some free lectures online, you seem to think it is something it is not. Psychology is a massive, broad subject. A lot of it is about the brain, not the mind, not cognition, not emotion, not individual differences, though these are parts of it. You also study pharmacology, memory, intelligence testing, perception (not what it sounds like), language etc. etc. Things that actually relate to counselling are very small parts of it, it is very very zoomed out.

    Anyway who am I to tell you anything, I didn't finish my psych course because it was so far away from anything I actually wanted to do, despite being fascinating. A psych conversion course with DBS isn't that expensive, and is 2 years, it's a DIP that gets people into certain masters, but not a proper conversion course. And there is a €4000 a year a part time 4 year psych undergraduate with NUI, affordable because you can work and study at the same time.


    Or you could go back to the other one, 7 years isn't a long time in a field where there is a bias against young people anyway :)

    Did you just quote something I didn't say?

    I do know what's involved in Psychology. FYI the one in DBS is part-time and is the equivalent of the fulltime BA. But I wasn't talking about doing a psych BA and then becoming a therapist (eh, no). My reference to cost was to the route I wanted to take, which would have been 2 years in DBS, an MA, and then a 3 year Counseling Psych Doctorate in Trinity at 13k a year. My point was that I believe psychology is essential for anyone who wants to work in any area re: counseling or psychotherapy. I think they should always have a psychology BA at the minimum before studying either of those. Counseling Psychology itself offers the best of both worlds at an even higher level.




  • Vela wrote: »
    Did you just quote something I didn't say?

    I do know what's involved in Psychology. My reference to cost was to the route I wanted to take, which would have been 2 years in DBS, an MA, and then a 3 year Couns. Doctorate in Trinity at 13k a year. My point was that I believe psychology is essential for anyone who wants to work in any area re: counseling or psychotherapy. I think they should always have a psychology BA at the minimum before studying either of those. Counseling Psychology itself offers the best of both worlds at an even higher level.

    I summarised, I didn't mean to misquote, it was either that or remove everything, I should have just removed everything, sorry.

    Anyway, I really don't see how it's relevant. I mean maybe they could do a short course in just the modules that are even vaguely related to counselling, I'd buy that! Happily! But a full BA in psychology? A waste of time, money, and resources.. Well learning is never a waste, learning is fascinating and enriching, but you'd be as well off studying French! I mean why do I need to know what lobes of the brain are responsible for, say, processing visual stimuli, or what neurotransmitters are responsible for hunger, so that I can help someone with PTSD!?




  • I summarised, I didn't mean to misquote, it was either that or remove everything, I should have just removed everything, sorry.

    Anyway, I really don't see how it's relevant. I mean maybe they could do a short course in just the modules that are even vaguely related to counselling, I'd buy that! Happily! But a full BA in psychology? A waste of time, money, and resources.. Well learning is never a waste, learning is fascinating and enriching, but you'd be as well off studying French! I mean why do I need to know what lobes of the brain are responsible for, say, processing visual stimuli, or what neurotransmitters are responsible for hunger, so that I can help someone with PTSD!?

    I think we have a very different idea of what an experienced and capable therapist is.




  • Vela wrote: »
    I think we have a very different idea of what an experienced and capable therapist is.

    I'd like to see a therapist who finds an application for the experience of drawing Mendelian diagrams in their biological psychology test :rolleyes: :D

    I guess we can't agree, but I think it's really sad this has stopped you from finding a back door into something you really want to do.... but you know what, it shouldn't!

    The part time BA with NUI in psych costs the same as the BA in counselling.. and DBS is affordable.. Like I said in my other post, I don't think 7 years is a long time in a field where people are biased against young people. 7 years will absolutely fly by. in 7 years you'll be thinking "feck.. that went really fast.. I could be a therapist by now"

    The money is a nightmare, but that might just mean you have to take 14 years.. I wouldn't let that stop me. I really want to be a CBT therapist eventually and it seems like that is going to take forever and all the money. alll of it... but that you get back after


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  • I'd like to see a therapist who finds an application for the experience of drawing Mendelian diagrams in their biological psychology test :rolleyes: :D

    I guess we can't agree, but I think it's really sad this has stopped you from finding a back door into something you really want to do.... but you know what, it shouldn't!

    The part time BA with NUI in psych costs the same as the BA in counselling.. and DBS is affordable.. Like I said in my other post, I don't think 7 years is a long time in a field where people are biased against young people. 7 years will absolutely fly by. in 7 years you'll be thinking "feck.. that went really fast.. I could be a therapist by now"

    The money is a nightmare, but that might just mean you have to take 14 years.. I wouldn't let that stop me. I really want to be a CBT therapist eventually and it seems like that is going to take forever and all the money. alll of it... but that you get back after

    Ah no, I decided it wasn't for me as I love what I do right now.

    But I wouldn't take a "back door" into a career like this. No way. You have a responsibility to your future patients. A psychology BA gives any therapist a good grounding into basic psychological theory which I think is essential. And until better regulation comes in, I wouldn't trust any therapist who didn't at least have a psych BA behind their couns/psychotherapist Masters. Or, preferably, have a doctorate in couns. psych.

    I'm actually speaking from experience from a previous patient standpoint also. I experienced 3 therapists who were qualified on paper as "counselors" or "therapists" but definitely did not have appropriate training to treat someone with serious issues beyond interpersonal relationship problems/stress etc. And that can really have a negative effect on the patient's recovery, never mind be extremely retraumatising.

    Good luck with the CBT thing though, I think it's great you're going for it, I just think people who do these courses need to be mindful of their limitations in what they are and aren't qualified to do.




  • Vela wrote: »
    Ah no, I decided it wasn't for me as I love what I do right now.

    But I wouldn't take a "back door" into a career like this. No way. You have a responsibility to your future patients. A psychology BA gives any therapist a good grounding into basic psychological theory which I think is essential. And until better regulation comes in, I wouldn't trust any therapist who didn't at least have a psych BA behind their couns/psychotherapist Masters. Or, preferably, have a doctorate in couns. psych.

    I'm actually speaking from experience from a previous patient standpoint also. I experienced 3 therapists who were qualified on paper as "counselors" or "therapists" but definitely did not have appropriate training to treat someone with serious issues beyond interpersonal relationship problems/stress etc. And that can really have a negative effect on the patient's recovery, never mind be extremely retraumatising.

    Good luck with the CBT thing though, I think it's great you're going for it, I just think people who do these courses need to be mindful of their limitations in what they are and aren't qualified to do.


    To me "back door" means anything that isn't through the CAO. It doesn't mean you would be less qualified. I'm glad you love your job :D I hate mine!

    I do think therapists need to be very honest about their training and methodology. A lot of people, for example, don't tell you or explain to you that they are psychoanalysts and what that means. If someone has, for example, OCD, a psychoanalyst with a BA in psychology and an MA in counselling is still absolutely the wrong person for them. There are psychoanalysts that swear blind they can treat OCD, but that's not what the studies say. People naturally assume that all therapists, counsellors and *shudder* life coaches are equally trained and qualified in the way that you'd expect every GP to be.

    Like I said above, if I can't help someone I can refer them. Most people do come with stress and depression, most people improve just by talking to someone. I'm never going to pretend to be an expert but I'm going to study like crazy and be really fecking careful. I don't think anyone is an expert, maybe that's something that came out of the data analysis classes.




  • And I'm so sorry you had a bad experience :(




  • To me "back door" means anything that isn't through the CAO. It doesn't mean you would be less qualified. I'm glad you love your job :D I hate mine!

    I do think therapists need to be very honest about their training and methodology. A lot of people, for example, don't tell you or explain to you that they are psychoanalysts and what that means. If someone has, for example, OCD, a psychoanalyst with a BA in psychology and an MA in counselling is still absolutely the wrong person for them. There are psychoanalysts that swear blind they can treat OCD, but that's not what the studies say. People naturally assume that all therapists, counsellors and *shudder* life coaches are equally trained and qualified in the way that you'd expect every GP to be.

    Like I said above, if I can't help someone I can refer them. Most people do come with stress and depression, most people improve just by talking to someone. I'm never going to pretend to be an expert but I'm going to study like crazy and be really fecking careful. I don't think anyone is an expert, maybe that's something that came out of the data analysis classes.

    Ah we agree on a few things so :) Best of luck with it!




  • I have had two separate experiences of attending therapy. The first was with a clinical psychologist and it wasn't very fruitful. Of course the person was highly trained but I felt we only scraped the surface of my issues.

    My second experience was far far better. This time my therapist had a Hdip and masters in psychotherapy, no BA in Psychology. She was specifically trained and accredited in her chosen field so I received a top notch psychotherapist.
    It isn’t necessary in my opinion to have a psychology background in order to work effectively. I want a psychotherapist who has the appropriate qualifications, accreditation, and experience.

    I do of course acknowledge the importance of being skilled and experienced when working with complex issues, I just don't believe a BA in Psychology is needed for that. Keep in mind also there are many weekend and week long intensive workshops for therapists that offer intensive training in for example early trauma and BPD. In fact Babette Rothschild will be holding one in Dublin this month.




  • Persepoly wrote: »
    I have had two separate experiences of attending therapy. The first was with a clinical psychologist and it wasn't very fruitful. Of course the person was highly trained but I felt we only scraped the surface of my issues.

    My second experience was far far better. This time my therapist had a Hdip and masters in psychotherapy, no BA in Psychology. She was specifically trained and accredited in her chosen field so I received a top notch psychotherapist.
    It isn’t necessary in my opinion to have a psychology background in order to work effectively. I want a psychotherapist who has the appropriate qualifications, accreditation, and experience.

    I do of course acknowledge the importance of being skilled and experienced when working with complex issues, I just don't believe a BA in Psychology is needed for that. Keep in mind also there are many weekend and week long intensive workshops for therapists that offer intensive training in for example early trauma and BPD. In fact Babette Rothschild will be holding one in Dublin this month.

    My experience was the reverse. I went to someone with an MA in psychotherapy and experience, and 2 "counselors" with dubious diplomas. But my positive experience was with a counseling psychologist (albeit not the same as a clinical psych who has less of a focus on the counseling/talk therapy aspect).

    I think when, and if, proper legislation comes into play it'll make all of this much easier to navigate and ensure that everyone - psychotherapists or whatever discipline - meets the sufficient level of skills and experience to treat patients.




  • It's common to have varying experiences, that's part of the human condition because no two people are the same. I am a big advocate of statutory regulation in the industry and having well trained therapists. When this occurs people will hopefully feel more confident in who they attend.




  • Yes to statutory regulation, yes to extensive training, the caveat being, it still won't control for any profession not being compassionate people to begin with. It still won't control for the professional expert trying to fix the broken.




  • Anyone know what does that mean exactly? Does this mean it's done?


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  • Anyone know what does that mean exactly? Does this mean it's done?

    Statutory regulation is now necessary it seems. They are putting together a 13 member registration board for applicants. As soon as that is up and running then professionals in the area must apply in order to call themselves Psychotherapist etc.




  • this is in accordance with what has been in the works all this time? I assume we'll still be allowed call ourselves things like "trainee counsellor" and "pre-accredited counsellor"? if that is in fact what we are?




  • this is in accordance with what has been in the works all this time? I assume we'll still be allowed call ourselves things like "trainee counsellor" and "pre-accredited counsellor"? if that is in fact what we are?

    I imagine you would be but I'm not sure how it will work. If you weren't being transparent about that in the past now you would have to be? Or will it be a case of no trainee permitted to practice, pre-accred and full accred only.




  • this is in accordance with what has been in the works all this time? I assume we'll still be allowed call ourselves things like "trainee counsellor" and "pre-accredited counsellor"? if that is in fact what we are?


    All that "pre" this and "poosibly a" needs to be prevented - it may mislead people who are at a very vulnerable stage in their lives




  • gctest50 wrote: »
    All that "pre" this and "poosibly a" needs to be prevented - it may mislead people who are at a very vulnerable stage in their lives

    Pre-accreditation is a necessary stage therapists must go through. The standards for full accreditation are high and it's not possible as far as I know to apply straight after training. There is also the issue of therapists needing many hours of practice done before applying for full accreditation. The best way is to be transparent and let clients make up their own mind who they would like to attend.




  • Pre- is a stage of anything really -

    i'm talking about those who may word their signs/adverts in a misleading way




  • gctest50 wrote: »
    Pre- is a stage of anything really -

    i'm talking about those who may word their signs/adverts in a misleading way

    That's different and where the regulation comes in. I don't know what the law will but I imagine it won't be legal to advertise yourself as something you are not. Mind you I believe that's already the case. I don't know how regulation will be enforced.




  • Make it like the Nurses Act , and increase the sentences to something more reasonable like 8 years and life



    44.— (1) A person is guilty of an offence if the person—



    (b) falsely represents to be a registered nurse or registered midwife, or



    (c) being a registered nurse or registered midwife, falsely represents to be registered in a division of the register of nurses and midwives other than the division in which the person is registered.




    (6) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—

    (a) on summary conviction, to a class A fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both,

    (b) on conviction on indictment—

    (i) in the case of a first offence, to a fine not exceeding €65,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both,

    (ii) in the case of any subsequent offence, to a fine not exceeding €160,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both

    [/b]




  • cant see how they will standardise the training; i envisage many more years before z ything is finalised, if at all.

    pre accredited was a guise created by IACP et al in order to get pre accredited money from people.

    thankfully CORU will be taking over and hooefully the likes of IACP will be institutions of the past. not that their currentmy far from it; their whole board stepped down a few minths ago, it seem the cat was caught at the cream


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  • dar100 wrote: »
    cant see how they will standardise the training; i envisage many more years before z ything is finalised, if at all.

    pre accredited was a guise created by IACP et al in order to get pre accredited money from people.

    thankfully CORU will be taking over and hooefully the likes of IACP will be institutions of the past. not that their currentmy far from it; their whole board stepped down a few minths ago, it seem the cat was caught at the cream

    There certainly is a strong money making element from the associations alright. Although at least IACP offer free workshops on a regular basis. IAHIP are a different beast.


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