Employers race to the bottom

Permabear · 01-06-2018 12:43PM

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Shenshen · 01-06-2018 12:43PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

'Shop assistants' as they called them then, wouldn't have been too badly off 100 years ago compared to others down the pecking order, would have been considered a white collar job.

And 50 years ago, due to the fact that the "blue collar" guys were the ones with the unions, the shop keepers started to lose out and dropped in the pecking order.

Unions only work in scenarios where very, very few employers employ very, very many employees, like in large factories or possibly across large chain stores. They absolutely shine in areas where the employer has the monopoly on the market, such as in railways and public transport. These employers can easily be threatened, as union actions will have immediate and direct impact on them.

How do you roll that model out to today's scenario, where there are few enough monopolies left (public transport seemingly being the last remnant), and far fewer employers with operations large enough in one country to be vulnerable to something like a strike?

Unions, to keep being relevant, need a new toolkit.
What worked 50 years ago is NOT working any more, and the reason people have no interest in them any more and won't join them is because in most fields of employment, they've become as impactful and relevant as a cold cup of tea.

whisky_galore · 01-06-2018 12:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

We can blame alot of other businesses for that. The culture of late payments among alot of them is scandalous.

I think it's a lot to do with cute hoorism and general lack-a-daisical attitude here, trying to get away with things for as long as you can.

ifElseThen · 01-06-2018 12:46PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Business survival should not be at the cost of worker's conditions. This is just wealth transference.

Also, Migrant labour = richer business owners

I see it in my industry, IT. Am a development lead in our place, almost all our hires have been non-nationals at reduced rates to what we'd pay an Irish person. Expected wage rate was mostly the determining factor.

Business growth and profit margins should not come at the expense of worker's conditions.

Shenshen · 01-06-2018 12:49PM

ifElseThen wrote: »

Business survival should not be at the cost of worker's conditions. This is just wealth transference.

Also, Migrant labour = richer business owners

I see it in my industry, IT. Am a development lead in our place, almost all our hires have been non-nationals at reduced rates to what we'd pay an Irish person. Expected wage rate was mostly the determining factor.

Business growth and profit margins should not come at the expense of worker's conditions.

Well, now that it's becoming harder not to pay women less money, someone has to take the hit, I suppose.

IT in particular is very location-agnostic. I'd credit your employer for hiring in Ireland at all, and not in Slovakia, or even further afield.

Permabear · 01-06-2018 12:51PM

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Birneybau · 01-06-2018 12:54PM

awec wrote: »

THey're busy making sure civil servants don't have to work 37 hours a week.

Always back to this. Divide and conquer...

Padraig Mor · 01-06-2018 12:55PM

weisses wrote: »

If you cannot afford to pay staff a fair and reasonable living wage you shouldn't be in business at all

I remember my brother, a (very) small business owner ended up on some lefty list of "parasite employers" because he took on someone through Jobsbridge. Yet at the time, he was borrowing money from family just to keep the lights on! He also kept the employee on after their Jobsbridge contract finished. But, hey, greedy business owners etc.....

bilbot79 · 01-06-2018 12:57PM

No rich employers = no jobs

weisses · 01-06-2018 01:00PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes ... If you cannot pay your staff a wage that prevents them from struggling as well then you are probably not viable as a buiseness

Permabear wrote: »

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Businesses going belly up? ... nothing new here, Employee goes on JSB and starts looking for a new job, Hopefully one that actually pays them properly.

of course a business can go through a rough patch and they even can discuss wage options with employees to help them through ... But that should be temporary

Red_Wake · 01-06-2018 01:03PM

ifElseThen wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Business survival should not be at the cost of worker's conditions. This is just wealth transference.

Also, Migrant labour = richer business owners

I see it in my industry, IT. Am a development lead in our place, almost all our hires have been non-nationals at reduced rates to what we'd pay an Irish person. Expected wage rate was mostly the determining factor.

Business growth and profit margins should not come at the expense of worker's conditions.[/quote]
Out of curiosity, what sort of place do you work?Is it a startup, SME or MNC?

I can see how this would occur in a startup, but any place with a competent HR department would be wary of the effects of underpaying employees on staff turnover, especially in today's IT sector - do ye have much turnover?

How are the rest of the working conditions, and, if you find them so unacceptable, have you looked at other employers?

weisses · 01-06-2018 01:03PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I remember my brother, a (very) small business owner ended up on some lefty list of "parasite employers" because he took on someone through Jobsbridge. Yet at the time, he was borrowing money from family just to keep the lights on! He also kept the employee on after their Jobsbridge contract finished. But, hey, greedy business owners etc.....

I am not talking about greedy business owners

I am saying fair and reasonable living wage ... If you cannot pay that to someone working for you then imo that person is in the wrong trade

hurler32 · 01-06-2018 01:06PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Panda bins be a good example, zero Irish staff and I've heard reports of them taking stuff out of bins to eat .. ... looking at a few staff in Tesco stacking shelfs yesterday evening , looked as if they hadn't a bob between them .. no doubt on some minimum wage contract ....

seamus · 01-06-2018 01:09PM

hurler32 wrote: »

Panda bins be a good example, zero Irish staff and I've heard reports of them taking stuff out of bins to eat .. ... looking at a few staff in Tesco stacking shelfs yesterday evening , looked as if they hadn't a bob between them .. no doubt on some minimum wage contract ....

"Looked as if they hadn't a bob between them". Were they stacking shelves in their bare feet and wearing rags?

Binmen taking stuff out of bins to eat. Such horsesh1t. Do you spend much time thinking about the most ridiculous stuff to say?

Neon_Lights · 01-06-2018 01:10PM

Well maybe we continually present our anuses to be continually ****ed by corporate cocks. So technically we only have ourselves to blame.

Permabear · 01-06-2018 01:10PM

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4068ac1elhodqr · 01-06-2018 01:13PM

When even MDH expreses concern at the new gig economy, it's time to get worried:

draiochtanois · 01-06-2018 01:16PM

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weisses · 01-06-2018 01:17PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Why are you moving goalposts to make your argument ?

Minimum wage is not a goal .. Its the bare minimum you are have to pay ... Living wage is at 11.70 an hour

Permabear wrote: »

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I was not suggesting this,

Imagine an employee on a living wage is responsible for a business going belly up ..... :rolleyes: Business owner must be having a gambling problem

Ipso · 01-06-2018 01:19PM

Neon_Lights wrote: »

Well maybe we continually present our anuses to be continually ****ed by corporate cocks. So technically we only have ourselves to blame.

At the next electio around 25% of the electorate will vote for the party that bankrupted the countey 10 years ago.
Since around 2000 the cost of living started to increase massively, but yet people lost the plit over s few hundred a year for water charges.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-06-2018 01:28PM

professore wrote: »

This last group think nothing of spending €1000 on the latest iPhone when they can get a perfectly decent Android under €200.

What an insane generalisation.

4068ac1elhodqr · 01-06-2018 01:34PM

The race to the bottom may well accelerate, as 50% of all current roles will be replaced by automation in 2030.

The solution: UBI/BLS (universal income).

Permabear · 01-06-2018 01:36PM

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weisses · 01-06-2018 01:38PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Imagine how you would cope on 9.55 an hour ...

TheDoc · 01-06-2018 01:41PM

Just the very obvious result of a more global economy, open economy and markets driven by underlying technology advancements.

There will be people that will reference old union movements or slogans, but this is the world we live in now, and it was obviously turning this way since I was in secondary school, when I chose my career in IT and knew what that path would provide.

Your competing with a global labour force, not a domestic one. The old trope of Ireland being attractive for its educated workforce, and speaking fluent English largely exposed for the semi-falacy that it was. Plenty of information now from the likes of Google, Facebook and other big foreign companies who have setup here, showing predominately work forces built up of non domestic labour.

Our workforce is going to need to get more mobile, more agile and basically catch up a bit.

Can still see from people my age, or a bit younger, this sense of entitlement from what they believe should have been the case. That they can't afford to live in Dublin, or they cant get work they want that should be paying X.

I'd argue though on the flipside, it's never been a more employee driven marketplace than now in a lot of sectors. I know for myself in IT, there is an abundance of jobs out there, and if I decided to move tomorrow, I'd have a pick of where to go, with companies trying to impress me. Not like say ten years ago where I'd be sweating for an interview and having to impress the **** out of some interview panel, as it was the only job I'd seen in my field for months.

While the race to the bottom might well be happening in some areas and sectors, in others I don't think its ever been better. In some sectors there is no real excuse for not being able to get work in a company that will value you and look after you.

Think in these talks its always worth pinpointing if we are talking generally or talking about a certain job type, role or sector.

Like the OP even makes reference to what I'm talking about in terms of a sense of entitlement or expectation based on legacy stuff. "Scraping by to survive on Lidl specials". For many it's some assumption that people shopping there or poverty striken, in financial crisis or tight ****s with their money.

For others, its a realisation that we were being ripped off before they came into the market.

Evd-Burner · 01-06-2018 01:48PM

seamus wrote: »

A side-effect of being an "open economy" as we hear so often touted is that a huge chunk of our workforce are engaging in work for US multinationals.

These multinationals bring their US employment ethics with them - i.e. treat your employees as slaves - and apply them as much as possible within the confines of Irish employment law.

This has a side-effect of non-US companies seeing what employees will put up with, and reducing their standards to meet.

I work for a large multi national and it is completely the opposite. I have 25 holiday days a year plus the statutory days, a good salary, health insurance, dental insurance, life insurance, pension and a load of other perks. Anybody I know in any of the multinationals would have similar. Intel, Pfizer etc.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-06-2018 01:48PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Capitalism. Well, as it is now practiced.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-06-2018 01:50PM

TheDoc wrote: »

Just the very obvious result of a more global economy, open economy and markets driven by underlying technology advancements.

There will be people that will reference old union movements or slogans, but this is the world we live in now, and it was obviously turning this way since I was in secondary school, when I chose my career in IT and knew what that path would provide.

Your competing with a global labour force, not a domestic one. The old trope of Ireland being attractive for its educated workforce, and speaking fluent English largely exposed for the semi-falacy that it was. Plenty of information now from the likes of Google, Facebook and other big foreign companies who have setup here, showing predominately work forces built up of non domestic labour.

Our workforce is going to need to get more mobile, more agile and basically catch up a bit.

Can still see from people my age, or a bit younger, this sense of entitlement from what they believe should have been the case. That they can't afford to live in Dublin, or they cant get work they want that should be paying X.

I'd argue though on the flipside, it's never been a more employee driven marketplace than now in a lot of sectors. I know for myself in IT, there is an abundance of jobs out there, and if I decided to move tomorrow, I'd have a pick of where to go, with companies trying to impress me. Not like say ten years ago where I'd be sweating for an interview and having to impress the **** out of some interview panel, as it was the only job I'd seen in my field for months.

While the race to the bottom might well be happening in some areas and sectors, in others I don't think its ever been better. In some sectors there is no real excuse for not being able to get work in a company that will value you and look after you.

Think in these talks its always worth pinpointing if we are talking generally or talking about a certain job type, role or sector.

Like the OP even makes reference to what I'm talking about in terms of a sense of entitlement or expectation based on legacy stuff. "Scraping by to survive on Lidl specials". For many it's some assumption that people shopping there or poverty striken, in financial crisis or tight ****s with their money.

For others, its a realisation that we were being ripped off before they came into the market.

Basically this is a long winded “I’m alright jack”.

The tide will turn in IT as well as it always does, often going against the other business cycles.

Gaillimh1976 · 01-06-2018 01:51PM

The living wage is a farce.

If a law was passed tomorrow that increased the Min Wage to the Living Wage, the only way most SMEs could afford to pay this would be by increasing their prices, therefore the living wage would have to increase again to meet these new prices, which would drive further price increases, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat................

TallGlass · 01-06-2018 01:52PM

I believe some people have good jobs in IT, but I have yet to find one. That big pool of people out there makes it easy to drop people like a stone.

Employers race to the bottom

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