Employers race to the bottom

hurler32 · 01-06-2018 11:33AM #1

Everyday im seeing young people in particular who are getting work on ..on temporary contracts , wages are minimum wage, no rights of sick leave not to mention proper holidays or pension. Everything is statutory ie bare minimum.
So the rich Employers, Owners etc get even richer and richer whilst many of the youth or not so young live from hand to mouth each month scavenging in Lidl for specials to survive ...its probably worse outside the Dublin belt where employers can basically pay what they want and treat their staff(Serfs) like sh1t...
Is this the Ireland we want for our sons and daughters?..I understand some smaller operations are operating on tight budgets but theres plenty of companies making huge profits but want to pay their staff minimum minimum whilst the rich get richer...

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 01-06-2018 11:37AM

Totally agree. Hard won workers' rights seem to be getting lost at an alarming rate. Contracts, unpaid internships, zero hour agreements, not to mention the increasing practise of employees regularly working far more than their contracted hours have really seen the world of work slip backwards.

The notion of a 9-5 job is sneered at by a lot of people nowadays, but at least it gave people a proper work/life balance, security and rights.

whisky_galore · 01-06-2018 11:38AM

Welcome to the gig economy lads.

jimgoose · 01-06-2018 11:39AM

Liam Clean Wench wrote: »

...The notion of a 9-5 job is sneered at by a lot of people nowadays...

Is it? Who are these people? Youngsters working as Content Creators in their parents' attics??

jimgoose · 01-06-2018 11:41AM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Welcome to the gig economy lads.

...which is code for ducking PRSI and paid vacations and so on via clever-clogs reduced-hours contracts. Watch out for this mickeybollocks "self-employment" carry-on to spread from the building sites into more fields, retail, service etc.

Permabear · 01-06-2018 11:44AM

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CrankyHaus · 01-06-2018 11:46AM

jimgoose wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yes, a crackdown on this is needed and the failure to curtail its growth in the last decade indicates an official attitude of "no harm done, turn a blind eye".

Incidentally I am finding that more and more employers have difficulty getting staff, or at least good staff. This does seem to be changing attitudes and pushing remuneration upwards but it seems bad habits learned during the recession die hard for many employers and HR people.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Very true. A lot of SMEs are under pressure. I think we should ask why?
Costs of living and doing business in Ireland seem to be pushed up in a manner that benefits vested interests and acts as a private tax on economic activity while contributing little in return. High rents is one example (and clearly state policies contribute to high rents). High Insurance premiums is another (again it's clear that one of the most generous compensation systems in the EU, if not the world, contributes to this).

jimgoose · 01-06-2018 11:46AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

They're not looking for everything under the sun. They're looking for a week's work for a week's pay, and proper social security. In other words, an actual job. It seems to me a lot of businesses are simply not viable if the only way they can employ people is this "gig economy" horseshit.

hurler32 · 01-06-2018 11:49AM

Look at building sites in Dublin, gone are the days of Dublin, Wicklow,etc men earning a decent wage rearing a family in what was a traditional working class Housing estate or village...those men have been replaced by Romanian,Albanian or illegal North Africans who are sleeping four or five to a room on floorboards hoping to send home a few quid out of their minimum wage to their barefoot family on a hillside in Albania...meanwhile the Dublin Building companys owners are picking out 182 Landcruisers for their bosses....

Donald Trump · 01-06-2018 11:50AM

Everything is about Race these days

PC gone mad

seamus · 01-06-2018 11:51AM

A side-effect of being an "open economy" as we hear so often touted is that a huge chunk of our workforce are engaging in work for US multinationals.

These multinationals bring their US employment ethics with them - i.e. treat your employees as slaves - and apply them as much as possible within the confines of Irish employment law.

This has a side-effect of non-US companies seeing what employees will put up with, and reducing their standards to meet.

20 years ago one could expect that a good professional job would come with at least VHI, pension, stocks and maybe even a company car.

That's all gone now, you'll get stock options if you're lucky, and maybe 25 days holidays instead of 20.

Of course, tax policy plays a part too - companies didn't hand out pensions, stocks and cars because they wanted to be nice. They did it because it was cheaper than paying the cash equivalent. That was removed by FF in the early 2000s.

The problem is that while wages rose to offset the loss of these benefits in kind, when the crash came the wages tumbled, but the benefits didn't come back.

hurler32 · 01-06-2018 11:51AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Some, yes are running tight operations and that's fair enough but plenty are doing extremely well and have more money than they could possible ever need while their staff are going round hungry...

Caliden · 01-06-2018 11:57AM

Welcome to the beast that is capitalism.

It works great when people have morals, the desire to better society and greed doesn't take over.

JMNolan · 01-06-2018 11:57AM

You'd have to wonder what the trade union movement is up to these days? Seems to have died out to be honest.

Red_Wake · 01-06-2018 11:58AM

It entirely depends on your sector and qualifications. I get pension, health insurance, plenty of annual leave, etc. I'm in the IT industry where there's a massive shortage of qualified workers, so employers have to give good benefits to attract decent workers, never mind the best ones.

Go down the economic chain a few rungs, to say semi skilled[need a degree, but more to show you've some level of brains rather than a specific qualification] production line worker in a factory[a mate of mine is doing this]. The conditions and pay[well above minimum I'd say] are decent[no insurance or pension afaik] but due to the contract nature, it's quite easy to get rid of someone and due to the semi skilled nature of the job, quite a large pool of labour to employ from. As such there's not much incentive on the employer to improve pay/conditions to retain staff as for the level of skill they require, they're already very competitive.

Go down another few levels to the crowd stacking shelves in Dunne's/Tesco. No degree needed, and realistically the lads who were too slow for the remedial classes in school can do it as well as a fella with a PhD in Theoretical Physics. These guys tend have little in the ways of employment options, and the work they do can be done by anyone. It's never gonna command much in the ways of benefits as there's never going to be a shortage of potential bodies.

Tbf, the last group are the ones who tend to lose out first. At the same time, their equivalents a hundred years ago were much worse off, and it should be acknowledged that they tend to be the ones employment legislation protects the most due to their inherent vulnerability.

hurler32 · 01-06-2018 12:01PM

JMNolan wrote: »

You'd have to wonder what the trade union movement is up to these days? Seems to have died out to be honest.

The Media have played a subtle part too backed by their vested Interested owners Denis o Brien etc..The INDO Rte etc brainwashing the public with Anti Union stories ...creating the environment for the same public to be paid peanuts....

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 01-06-2018 12:02PM

JMNolan wrote: »

You'd have to wonder what the trade union movement is up to these days? Seems to have died out to be honest.

Yes, I think a lot of younger people in particular are just not interested in joining their union anymore. It seems to be part of this mindset that only losers leave the office at 5.30, want a job for life, security etc that some people seem to have been brainwashed into believing.

I also hate the way some companies offer stuff like mindfulness classes, wellness rooms etc while totally exploiting their staff in every other way.

whisky_galore · 01-06-2018 12:07PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

Tbf, the last group are the ones who tend to lose out first. At the same time, their equivalents a hundred years ago were much worse off, and it should be acknowledged that they tend to be the ones employment legislation protects the most due to their inherent vulnerability.

'Shop assistants' as they called them then, wouldn't have been too badly off 100 years ago compared to others down the pecking order, would have been considered a white collar job.

Permabear · 01-06-2018 12:15PM

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Permabear · 01-06-2018 12:16PM

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CrankyHaus · 01-06-2018 12:16PM

hurler32 wrote: »

The Media have played a subtle part too backed by their vested Interested owners Denis o Brien etc..The INDO Rte etc brainwashing the public with Anti Union stories ...creating the environment for the same public to be paid peanuts....

No fabrication of anti-union stories required, they do a grand job supplying them themselves.

Union bosses chased all that sweet social partnership and benchamrking lucre during the Tiger in return for supporting FF as they drove the country off a cliff; more or less abandoned private sector workers; sold out young entrants to the public sector to keep the gravy train going for the older ones; and at this stage only represent a Labour Aristocracy that taxes normal working people heavily to maintain its standard of living while providing poor public services in return.

It's hardly surprising that young people don't put their trust in the Unions.

weisses · 01-06-2018 12:20PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

If you cannot afford to pay staff a fair and reasonable living wage you shouldn't be in business at all

professore · 01-06-2018 12:20PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

It entirely depends on your sector and qualifications. I get pension, health insurance, plenty of annual leave, etc. I'm in the IT industry where there's a massive shortage of qualified workers, so employers have to give good benefits to attract decent workers, never mind the best ones.

Go down the economic chain a few rungs, to say semi skilled[need a degree, but more to show you've some level of brains rather than a specific qualification] production line worker in a factory[a mate of mine is doing this]. The conditions and pay[well above minimum I'd say] are decent[no insurance or pension afaik] but due to the contract nature, it's quite easy to get rid of someone and due to the semi skilled nature of the job, quite a large pool of labour to employ from. As such there's not much incentive on the employer to improve pay/conditions to retain staff as for the level of skill they require, they're already very competitive.

Go down another few levels to the crowd stacking shelves in Dunne's/Tesco. No degree needed, and realistically the lads who were too slow for the remedial classes in school can do it as well as a fella with a PhD in Theoretical Physics. These guys tend have little in the ways of employment options, and the work they do can be done by anyone. It's never gonna command much in the ways of benefits as there's never going to be a shortage of potential bodies.

Tbf, the last group are the ones who tend to lose out first. At the same time, their equivalents a hundred years ago were much worse off, and it should be acknowledged that they tend to be the ones employment legislation protects the most due to their inherent vulnerability.

This last group think nothing of spending €1000 on the latest iPhone when they can get a perfectly decent Android under €200.

Skobey_brady · 01-06-2018 12:23PM

hurler32 wrote: »

The Media have played a subtle part too backed by their vested Interested owners Denis o Brien etc..The INDO Rte etc brainwashing the public with Anti Union stories ...creating the environment for the same public to be paid peanuts....

RTE are extremely pro union and pro public sector union in particular, I think unions are important but describing rte as anti union is just plain silly

Blazer · 01-06-2018 12:24PM

seamus wrote: »

A side-effect of being an "open economy" as we hear so often touted is that a huge chunk of our workforce are engaging in work for US multinationals.

These multinationals bring their US employment ethics with them - i.e. treat your employees as slaves - and apply them as much as possible within the confines of Irish employment law.

This has a side-effect of non-US companies seeing what employees will put up with, and reducing their standards to meet.

20 years ago one could expect that a good professional job would come with at least VHI, pension, stocks and maybe even a company car.

That's all gone now, you'll get stock options if you're lucky, and maybe 25 days holidays instead of 20.

Of course, tax policy plays a part too - companies didn't hand out pensions, stocks and cars because they wanted to be nice. They did it because it was cheaper than paying the cash equivalent. That was removed by FF in the early 2000s.

The problem is that while wages rose to offset the loss of these benefits in kind, when the crash came the wages tumbled, but the benefits didn't come back.

I’m calling bull**** on that.
I worked for a US multinational and left in 2014 to work for another. Both companies treated their employees excellently and I got a payrise every year even in the middle of the recession.
For me and any other of these employees we didn’t have a recession.
Same for the company I moved to in 2014. They were paying their staff fantastic rates and giving them cheap stock options.
Even their hirimg manager told me there was no recession for them.

DrumSteve · 01-06-2018 12:25PM

professore wrote: »

This last group think nothing of spending €1000 on the latest iPhone when they can get a perfectly decent Android under €200.

Really?

All of them?

Bare in mind, I know people who do these jobs and they have actually got 200e android phones.

Hector Savage · 01-06-2018 12:26PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

It entirely depends on your sector and qualifications. I get pension, health insurance, plenty of annual leave, etc. I'm in the IT industry where there's a massive shortage of qualified workers, so employers have to give good benefits to attract decent workers, never mind the best ones.

Go down the economic chain a few rungs, to say semi skilled[need a degree, but more to show you've some level of brains rather than a specific qualification] production line worker in a factory[a mate of mine is doing this]. The conditions and pay[well above minimum I'd say] are decent[no insurance or pension afaik] but due to the contract nature, it's quite easy to get rid of someone and due to the semi skilled nature of the job, quite a large pool of labour to employ from. As such there's not much incentive on the employer to improve pay/conditions to retain staff as for the level of skill they require, they're already very competitive.

Go down another few levels to the crowd stacking shelves in Dunne's/Tesco. No degree needed, and realistically the lads who were too slow for the remedial classes in school can do it as well as a fella with a PhD in Theoretical Physics. These guys tend have little in the ways of employment options, and the work they do can be done by anyone. It's never gonna command much in the ways of benefits as there's never going to be a shortage of potential bodies.

Tbf, the last group are the ones who tend to lose out first. At the same time, their equivalents a hundred years ago were much worse off, and it should be acknowledged that they tend to be the ones employment legislation protects the most due to their inherent vulnerability.

This will shift though, eventually you'll have extremely skilled workers just barely getting by as the elite positions get smaller and smaller ..

VinLieger · 01-06-2018 12:32PM

Blazer wrote: »

I’m calling bull**** on that.
I worked for a US multinational and left in 2014 to work for another. Both companies treated their employees excellently and I got a payrise every year even in the middle of the recession.
For me and any other of these employees we didn’t have a recession.
Same for the company I moved to in 2014. They were paying their staff fantastic rates and given me them cheap stock options.
Even their hirImg manager told me there was no recession for them.

Agreed, working for US multinationals is nothing like what that poster described, i work for one where we get more benefits than i could ever dream of working for an irish company.

I know many people who work for other US multinationals and this is the norm, one behaving like the poster described would be a complete exception and indicate larger issues with the company

Permabear · 01-06-2018 12:34PM

This post has been deleted.

awec · 01-06-2018 12:35PM

JMNolan wrote: »

You'd have to wonder what the trade union movement is up to these days? Seems to have died out to be honest.

THey're busy making sure civil servants don't have to work 37 hours a week.

01-06-2018 12:41PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

We can blame alot of other businesses for that. The culture of late payments among alot of them is scandalous.

Employers race to the bottom

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