The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2018 09:52PM

nullzero wrote: »

We shouldn't outlaw abortion, I think there is a considerable cohort like me who want to repeal the eight but not introduce so called abortion on demand.

Why do you think women can't be trusted to make the right decision for themselves?

murpho999 · 24-05-2018 09:53PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I am fundamentally coming from the point of view that unborm children deserve rights the most basic of which is the right to life except in the case of hard cases.

I don't believe women should be allowed abort their foetus's in this country and often for very spurious and shallow reasons. You also forget and I posted articles earlier that women are often pressurised into aborting by their own parents or male partners.

So no I don't believe abortion should be freely available here except for the small number of unfortunate cases mentioned. Otherwise abortion will become common place and normalised which it shouldn't be.

So you prefer to let woman travel abroad to get their required treatment?

Why do people think it's OK for Ireland to be the only country in Western Europe to outlaw abortion?

Why are all those other countries wrong and we're right?

Also what are "spurious" reasons? Who are you to judge them?

It's entirely personal and I also believe it's not right to force a child on somebody who cannot support it properly.

jigglypuffstuff · 24-05-2018 09:53PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

You know, I can’t tell you how many posts I’ve seen on this thread alone of men calling female Repeal supporters feminazis and the like.

These same men seem to be predominately concerned about women aborting babies without their permission.
I agree this referendum affects men, these laws can effect their daughters and wives and sisters and so on.
And of course, a potential ex partner potentially aborting a baby without permission deserves concern too.
But it’s very telling that their only issue seems to be the latter.
I’ve seen post after post about this.
It sounds incredibly controlling.
Nothing about how these laws can impact the woman they love, nothing about what might happen a future daughter, but lots and lots of Vote No’s who seem to be doing so on the basis that they dont want women having abortions without their permission.

Just something I’ve noticed.

I believe what you meant to say.... once we remove the feminist victim curtain veiling your post is that men would like to have a say in the fate of a baby they created. And given the fact that the DNA will be part theirs... I cannot under any circumstances understand how anyone could call that unfair

Nobody is controlling anyone....or trying to for they matter...

Just something I've noticed.

Paranoid Bob · 24-05-2018 09:53PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The vote tomorrow removes likely forever constitutional protection for the unborn. People need to think about what that means. No more protection and their fate is subject to political whims and trends. If a far left socialist government ever make it to power their fate is doomed. The 12 week unrestricted option is too extreme.

I understand and respect that you think the 12 weeks provision is too extreme, but that is not the vote tomorrow.
The current situation is also too extreme, and I think you have acknowledged that in your previous posts.
Repealing the 8th enables (and effectively requires) a debate on where the middle ground should be.

It is a bit of a leap of faith, I grant you; but there will never be a better time to do this. The government is weak, the Dáil is divided, there are (according to Fidelma Healey Eames and others) good ideas on how to word a more moderate law.

The current situation is just too cruel. Re-read the "in her shoes" stories; they are numerous and real. We have the chance to change that and there will never be a better opportunity than tomorrow.

Wrongway1985 · 24-05-2018 09:54PM

nullzero wrote: »

Men have no reproductive rights, if a consenting couple get pregnant and the woman decides motherhood isn't for her is she free to terminate against her partners wishes? Of course because the man has no say at all.

So basically allowed to bail if parenthood isn't for them? Men are already afforded that.

I put monumental value on mothers, I personally would prefer not to raise a child as a single father may end up that way in the end of course but my wishes wouldn't come before the woman's position on pregnancy. Consent to sex is not committing to parenthood should the woman become pregnant.

Healthy babies and healthy mothers has been one of the most thoughtless of remarks over the course of this, when used it always came across as if they're capable of pregnancy I want to ignore these people regardless of their troubles or situation.

Nettle Soup · 24-05-2018 09:54PM

nullzero wrote: »

We shouldn't outlaw abortion, I think there is a considerable cohort like me who want to repeal the eight but not introduce so called abortion on demand.

Well then you can lobby your TDs to change the legislation as you and others see sit. It will finally be in the hands of our elected representatives and governments. But first we need to repeal the 8th. The status quo is not working and is simply wrong.

Nobody will be forced to have an abortion.

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 09:55PM

pone2012 wrote: »

I believe what you meant to say.... once we remove the feminist victim curtain veiling your post is that men would like to have a say in the fate of a baby they created. And given the fact that the DNA will be part theirs... I cannot under any circumstances understand how anyone could call that unfair

Nobody is controlling anyone....or trying to for they matter...

Just something I've noticed.

You just completely proved my point by calling me a feminist. This is hilarious!

pleas advice · 24-05-2018 09:55PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why do you think women can't be trusted to make the right decision for themselves?

because it's not just 'themselves', is it?
would anyone have a problem with abortion if there was no other entity involved, only the woman?

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2018 09:56PM

pone2012 wrote: »

I believe what you meant to say.... once we remove the feminist victim curtain veiling your post is that men would like to have a say in the fate of a baby they created. And given the fact that the DNA will be part theirs... I cannot under any circumstances understand how anyone could call that unfair

Be more careful about who you're getting pregnant if it's a constant worry that there's so many women waiting to head off an have abortions against their will.

Realistically, how often do you think it happens?

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 09:56PM

tigger123 wrote: »

So, what is it you have an issue with? The abortion? Or the fact that the man doesn't have to sign off on it?

There are many women who will be voting No.
Stop framing this as a men controlling women issue. Its disingenuous.

Nettle Soup · 24-05-2018 09:57PM

I imagine the Mods will be very glad when this referendum is over.

I wonder how many people were thread banned and how many re-regs appeared. Must be a record.

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:58PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why do you think women can't be trusted to make the right decision for themselves?

For fvcks sake, go away.

I've answered in detail.

jigglypuffstuff · 24-05-2018 09:59PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Be more careful about who you're getting pregnant if it's a constant worry that there's so many women waiting to head off an have abortions against their will.

Realistically, how often do you think it happens?

If you read any post I made in this thread I've been more than Vocal about people being careful.. that I can assure you

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 09:59PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Do let us know where you see the abortion % rate decreasing here?! http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedkingdom.html

Or here, where British midwives of all people :rolleyes: want abortion *regardless of the stage of pregnancy?!* Horrific.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/abortion-rate-england-and-wales-five-year-high

I’m going to bed. Stick your fingers in your ears if you like. If you really care about the hard cases you will take the time to look at the World Health Organisation statistics on abortion rates. If you don’t bother then you don’t care all that much really now do you?

24-05-2018 10:00PM

nullzero wrote: »

You were insinuating that I'm coming from a failed relationship which is a tad insulting.

It was based on your men have no rights posts that made me think passed over/****ed over for a promotion or such actually. Unless your in your early teens most men don't stay bitter about a failed relationship.

But hey you've' been insulting people since you got in here, feel free to continue, it's not really helping your cause however but sure you already know that.
,

pleas advice · 24-05-2018 10:00PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Nobody will be forced to have an abortion.

theres another strawman, who ever said anyone would be?

nullzero · 24-05-2018 10:00PM

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

So basically allowed to bail if parenthood isn't for them? Men are already afforded that.

I put monumental value on mothers, I personally would prefer not to raise a child as a single father may end up that way in the end of course but my wishes wouldn't come before the woman's position on pregnancy. Consent to sex is not committing to parenthood should the woman become pregnant.

Healthy babies and healthy mothers has been one of the most thoughtless of remarks over the course of this, when used it always came across as if they're capable of pregnancy I want to ignore these people regardless of their troubles or situation.

Men who do that are d1ckheads, the rest I've covered already.

jill_valentine · 24-05-2018 10:00PM

pone2012 wrote: »

I believe what you meant to say.... once we remove the feminist victim curtain veiling your post is that men would like to have a say in the fate of a baby they created. And given the fact that the DNA will be part theirs... I cannot under any circumstances understand how anyone could call that unfair

Nobody is controlling anyone....or trying to for they matter...

Just something I've noticed.

It's very simple.

She can't be a little bit pregnant. She either is or she isn't.

So we've two parties to the pregnancy, him or her, deciding whether she'll stay pregnant or not.

If they both think differently, one has to be the deciding vote. It’s a binary choice with no middle ground. And the person who gets to make that call has to be the one whose body and life would be on the line for the guts of a year.

If you want to sulk at the idea that people don't think you should be allowed to force somebody to have your baby for you against their will, then Idk what to tell you. Imagine he has 49% of a vote and her 51% if that makes you feel better.

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 10:01PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Be more careful about who you're getting pregnant if it's a constant worry that there's so many women waiting to head off an have abortions against their will.

Realistically, how often do you think it happens?

Apparently bumsex is the posters solution. It was discussed at length.

Paranoid Bob · 24-05-2018 10:01PM

NIMAN wrote: »

Can I ask another question thats been on my mind.

If YES wins tomorrow, can the Government legislate for whatever they want in terms of abortion, with the population having no say?

In other words, can they move the goalposts whenever they want, be it now or in 10yrs time, or will they need to ask the people again if they want to extend the 12 weeks to 24 weeks for example?

The government could propose and pass any legislation; more liberal or more restrictive than the one currently proposed.

Just like they could legislate to lower the age of consent to 12; legalise cocaine or impose water charges. Nothing you can do about it.

Except of course; no-one is going to propose lowering the age of consent to 12 or legalising cocaine, and the water charges legislation was reversed because of direct public action. So maybe there is something we could do if that extremely unlikely scenario ever arose.

nullzero · 24-05-2018 10:01PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

It was based on your men have no rights posts that made me think passed over/****ed over for a promotion or such actually. Unless your in your early teens most men don't stay bitter about a failed relationship.

But hey you've' been insulting people since you got in here, feel free to continue, it's not really helping your cause however but sure you already know that.
,

I've been insulting people?

Please post my insults.

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 10:02PM

Dressing gown wrote: »

I’m going to bed. Stick your fingers in your ears if you like. If you really care about the hard cases you will take the time to look at the World Health Organisation statistics on abortion rates. If you don’t bother then you don’t care all that much really now do you?

??

The abortion rate increased from less than 3% to over 20% since the year abortion was legalised? I'm just asking you to tell us how abortion rates decrease after it's introduced, that's all?

And you can also see that when the culture changes you get to the point where midwives - midwives - are advocating for abortion at any stage of pregnancy. Incredible.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 10:02PM

murpho999 wrote: »

So you prefer to let woman travel abroad to get their required treatment?

Why do people think it's OK for Ireland to be the only country in Western Europe to outlaw abortion?

Why are all those other countries wrong and we're right?

Also what are "spurious" reasons? Who are you to judge them?

It's entirely personal and I also believe it's not right to force a child on somebody who cannot support it properly.

Its their personal choice if they want to travel abroad for socio-economic reasons.

I would be in favour of "treating" for want of a better term the small number of unfortunate cases around rape, FFA etc here in Ireland. No problem with abortion in these limited circumstances.

The problem starts with abortion on demand which has the potential to be badly misused and over-used to the point it become as easy as getting a prescription from your GP.

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 10:02PM

murpho999 wrote: »

So you prefer to let woman travel abroad to get their required treatment?

In so far as any restriction is imposed by the legislation ( and its unlikey to run through as it is), women will still be travelling

Timberrrrrrrr · 24-05-2018 10:03PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There are many women who will be voting No.
Stop framing this as a men controlling women issue. Its disingenuous.

Did you not post links earlier on how men have been known to force women to have abortions? Wasn't that you framing your arguement as "men controlling women"?

jill_valentine · 24-05-2018 10:05PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

In so far as any restriction is imposed by the legislation ( and its unlikey to run through as it is), women will still be travelling

...most of the restrictions we've broached are the direct or indirect result of later term abortions, a good number of which will be avoided by being able to provide early days options at home.

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 10:05PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Its their personal choice if they want to travel abroad for socio-economic reasons.

I would be in favour of "treating" for want of a better term the small number of unfortunate cases around rape, FFA etc here in Ireland. No problem with abortion in these limited circumstances.

Great! We agree on that!

Now, how do we do it?

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2018 10:06PM

nullzero wrote: »

For fvcks sake, go away.

I've answered in detail.

You keep saying your ok with abortions but not abortion on demand

All that points to is that you don't trust women to make the best decision in their circumstances and you think you can decide better for then by just telling them no

jigglypuffstuff · 24-05-2018 10:06PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

You just completely proved my point by calling me a feminist. This is hilarious!

Again with the not reading... is there some reason you can't read my posts??

I said post was veiled with a feminist curtain.. do you understand the difference?... And the only reason I did say that is because of what you said about control... that's unfounded, untrue and nonsense if the highest order

Greysquirel09 · 24-05-2018 10:08PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

And I don’t disagree that it’s a concern.

What I noticed is that for some No voters it’s their ONLY concern.
And they don’t talk about how the 8th can affect their sisters, mothers, wives etc.
Their concern loses a bit of credibility when the only thing theyre worried about is their lack of control over the situation.
And what’s even more ironic is that for them to have said control, the pregnant woman has to lose complete control over her own body.

I’ve seen over and over again the same ridiculous argument put forward - the one where if she doesn’t want a baby she should close her legs (and every other variation that point was made in).

Well, not to be facetious, but if men are concerned about women having abortions without their permission, maybe they should be more concerned about where they dip their wick.
They should both be held to the same standard.

Again lack of control over the situation. Down playing it so much. These are our sons and daughters we are talking about once again. The situation is whether or not a woman wants to abort their child. It's not a nice situation if it's a one night stand of whatever. Maybe the Catholic church were right all along. Wait til you're married.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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