The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

1800_Ladladlad · 24-05-2018 03:35PM

Irregardless of my opinion, Im openly welcoming the end of this referendum. Both sides have now come full circle meeting in the centre, behaving as bad as each other. What ever the result, I’m hoping both sides will be willing to accept & respect it.

From the yes side damaging/defacing & removing NO campaign posters, to the NO side with their invasive & less empathetic neolithic approach. Personally I have only witnessed NO campaign posters being defaced. Im sure there has been YES posters defaced too, Im not doubting that for a second. When the posters are burnt, they completely disintegrate while leaving the melted plastic or material stuck to ground and all down the post like spilled wax. Its disgusting to witness and to see.

Both sides have not been equally represented by media, all platforms have pushed their liberal agenda on the topic showing clear bias & support for YES campaign. Over the course of this campaign I feel that I have been dictated towards, that I have been continuously told what the socially acceptable thing is to do, while being coupled with very vague & recycled arguments from the 'rent a crowd' campaigners/members .

To be offended, it is a choice to do so. As offence is taken, not given. The yes vote take offence when you simply show interest in a reason to vote against or simply if you obtain a different opinion to them. If your a man your vote matters, but only if its yes, because if you vote no , that is a vote against women and you simply have no right to vote on a choice that effects a woman.

What tipped me over the edge was the communal outrage over social media and the usage of the inexplicable murders of Natalia Karaczyn Anastasia Kriegel & Jastine Valdez over the past couple weeks. It takes a special type of bitterness to use such a tragedy to push your political agenda. Two woman & a child have had their lives taken from them over a short space of time. The yes side melodramatically asserting that (all) men don't respect woman, its just beyond pathetic and straight out nonsense.

From the start, I knew what my vote was going to be and that it was not going to be swayed. My vote is based on the right to choose and not based on opinion. My opinion is irrelevant to the matter at hand , as it is MY opinion and not the opinion of the person who may be affected by as issue that may arise.

24-05-2018 03:35PM

just dropped fifty pounds on the fb abroad for yes page and i doubt ill spend happier money this year

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 03:38PM

Jonas Tangy Pantry wrote: »

Explain to me how medical experts determine with careful examination if someone's been raped?

If, and its a big ****ing if, someone reports a rape immediately, the SATU process can gather information like vaginal tearing or bruising, defensive wounds, damage to clothing, DNA evidence like semen, blood, saliva from the alleged rapist. That information may be useful in a court case, but by no means guarantees a conviction. None of that might be present, even though a rape occured and goes on to result in conviction.

As far as I can see, you've absolutely no idea about the process, common behaviour of survivors, best practice in treatment. No clue what you're talking about.

I'm absolutely grand with being ignored by someone who's big hearted enough to grudgingly allow abortion to women who are beaten black and blue.

Probably the biggest lie I have read on boards.ie.
I clearly said every assistance up to and including abortion should be given to victims of rape.

Lie after lie after lie from the Yes side.

A previous example from another poster was saying all No siders were far right ultra Catholics. This despite the fact the No side includes prominent trade unionists and normally liberal or left leaning politicians. Few if any No voters I know regularly attend mass or would be considered in any way religious.

Its sad that many Yes voters have to resort to blatant lies.

Hotblack Desiato · 24-05-2018 03:40PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm reminded about the old story about the fried breakfast. The hen is participating, but the pig is involved.

....... · 24-05-2018 03:40PM

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deejer · 24-05-2018 03:41PM

....... wrote: »

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I know the easiest thing for you to do is to write me off as misogynistic or sexist. But I don't think that even makes sense. And its probably why alot of men find it difficult to put their opinions forward. I am simple making the point that male/female, born/unborn has a right to life.

....... · 24-05-2018 03:41PM

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24-05-2018 03:41PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Probably the biggest lie I have read on boards.ie.
I clearly said every assistance up to and including abortion should be given to victims of rape.

Lie after lie after lie from the Yes side.

A previous example from another poster was saying all No siders were far right ultra Catholics. This despite the fact the No side includes prominent trade unionists and normally liberal or left leaning politicians. Few if any No voters I know regularly attend mass or would be considered in any way religious.

Its sad that many Yes voters have to resort to blatant lies.

Any reply to why you feel rape victims have to be further traumatised & put through proving that they have been raped?

How do you think you would feel if you were raped or sexually assaulted?

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 03:42PM

deejer wrote: »

I am voting no tomorrow. I am male, a father and in my 30's. I am not particularly religious (I am saying that to make a point that it is not a factor in my decision).

I have come in and out of this thread over the last few weeks just to get a feel for the discussions and debates that are happening. In my own walk of life there is very little discussion on what way people are going to vote. The only people I have really discussed it with are my immediate family. Nothing in the canteen and work. I often feel uncomfortable bringing it up and I guess others are the same. I am comfortable in my view point though.

There are a couple of points I want to make just to put my opinions out there. They are general - I am not going to get into the details of particular situations that can arise. They are so many (being used by both the yes and no side) that I think people end up getting even more confused.

The core of my opinion is actually within what the 8th Amendments actually says at the moment. The baby/fetus/unborn has an equal right to life. I find it hard to get past that. The fact that we are going to replace the current language to state that "provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy" really bother me. Given this is the only right to life our constitution affords the unborn.

My kids became real to me when I found out my wife was pregnant. They were certainly real when we went for the first scan which happened between the 10-12 week mark. At that time they had an equal right to life, same as me, my wife, or anyone else. I strongly believe everyone deserves that right.

Also, in my opinion, I don't believe women should have bodily autonomy when it comes to the pregnancy. I think it is too simple to show this as a human rights issue. I believe pregnancy creates a responsibility on the woman to care for the unborn baby. I know - easy for me to say as a man. But that's my opinion.

I have seen alot of comments from people in this thread that they can't understand why people are getting so bothered about this since it may have no effect on them. The "you still don't have to get an abortion if you don't want to" argument. This is a cop out. We are discussing a fundamental change to the constitution of our country that will have a serious social change long into the future. This proposed change will effect us all and it is important that our decision is made based on what we want for our country.

I know there are a multitude of situations where things aren't black and white and where difficult decision have to be made. The constitution as it is, isn't perfect and making the change isn't going to resolve all the issues either - far from it. But we have to approach resolving these issues maintaining our core principles. For me the right to life of everyone, born and unborn is a core principle that should form the basis of how we approach resolving these issues.

I just wanted to put this down in writing. I would encourage everyone to get out and vote tomorrow.

I don't want for our country to keep its back turned on the hundreds of thousands of women that have had illegal abortions in Ireland or legal abortions in England.
I don't want for our country to force vulnerable women to take unnecessary risks to their health by carrying out abortions on themselves (with or worse without abortion pills).
I don't want my country to force women with dying babies in their bellies to come in week after week to check if their baby is dead yet so she can put an end to her suffering.
I don't want my country to put the life of a dying foetus ahead of the health of any living breathing woman.
I don't want my country to force any woman to become a mother when she is not yet ready to become one.
I don't want my country to tell women that are raped that they must carry their rapists child.
I don't want my country to judge women that have had abortions.
I don't want my country to send any women that have had an abortion to jail for 14 years.
I don't want my country to have an amendment in its constitution that is contrary to UN and other charters that our country has signed up to.
I don't want my country to be in breach of international human rights.
I don't want my country to have anything in its constitution that is opposed by Amnesty International.
I don't want my country to treat mothers of FFA pregnancies that have to travel to the UK to terminate when they can't go on with their pregnancies anymore as collateral damage.
I don't want the constitution of my country to fetter the healthcare I can receive because I am a woman.
I don't want my country to have so little respect for a part of its constitution that it will maintain an amendment that is not enforced and is openly flouted.
I could go on….

TL:DR I don't want the eighth amendment.

Akrasia · 24-05-2018 03:43PM

Macha wrote: »

I had a miscarriage last year at 12 weeks. I mourned for that lost potential baby. My mother also passed away last year and I am utterly devastated. Are both losses equal to me? No, and nor are they equal to most people.

Here's a philosophical distinction that gets passed by in the debate. What gives human life it's value?

People value humans because of their minds, their relationships, their history and their character and their personality. An undeveloped fetus doesn't have any of these things except for the relationship, and this is completely contextual. A wanted pregnancy is very different from an unwanted one. A wanted pregnancy is the embodiment of a couple's (usually) hopes and dreams for the future
An unwanted pregnancy can cause mental anguish, anxiety, fear, dread, and mourning for the hopes and dreams the woman wanted but can see slipping away.

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 03:44PM

I think the big difficulty for a lot of people is simply that they don't agree with abortion, but don't agree either that a woman should HAVE to continue with a pregnancy if she doesn't want to.

And the Yes campaign has focused almost exclusively on the obviously hard cases, but the vast majority of cases don't fall into this category.

....... · 24-05-2018 03:44PM

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pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 24-05-2018 03:46PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Probably the biggest lie I have read on boards.ie.
I clearly said every assistance up to and including abortion should be given to victims of rape.

Lie after lie after lie from the Yes side.

A previous example from another poster was saying all No siders were far right ultra Catholics. This despite the fact the No side includes prominent trade unionists and normally liberal or left leaning politicians. Few if any No voters I know regularly attend mass or would be considered in any way religious.

Its sad that many Yes voters have to resort to blatant lies.

You've a funny way of leaving a thread.

I can clearly say I think all animals should have food. But not any old animals, just giraffes. Nobody better say I don't think all animals should have food though!

Seeing as you've stropped by the threas again, could you take a break from being offended and answer the question I asked? How does a "medical expert" determine that someone's been raped? I really think you should also pass that information to the legal system it would, oh my god, save so much hassle for them.

Stonedpilot · 24-05-2018 03:47PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

just dropped fifty pounds on the fb abroad for yes page and i doubt ill spend happier money this year

You deal in Pounds?. Waste of money buddy. Abortion is already in the UK.

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 03:48PM

deejer wrote: »

I know the easiest thing for you to do is to write me off as misogynistic or sexist. But I don't think that even makes sense. And its probably why alot of men find it difficult to put their opinions forward. I am simple making the point that male/female, born/unborn has a right to life.

Would you be happy for your wife to be denied cancer treatment on the grounds that she was 6 weeks pregnant?

jigglypuffstuff · 24-05-2018 03:48PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The reason for that is that coma patients ARE sentient agents. You do not become less of a human person when you fall asleep for example.

The degree of functionality of that sentience is compromised due to whatever medical issue has them in a coma, but they still ARE a sentient person. And there is nothing in science to preclude a person in a coma from experiencing things like conversations in their vicinity.

The fetus at 10/12 weeks when the near totality of choice based abortion occurs however is not a sentient agent. At all. In any sense that our science can discern. Even a little bit. This is no small difference.

The "not fully understood" approach to that topic is also something of a red herring. It does not NEED to be "fully" understood. We just have to understand it enough to know the fetus being terminated, at say 10 weeks gestation, has no sentience at all. [/QUOTE]

That's entirely contradictory. By admitting that science has little understanding of consciousness, yet label something an entirely devoid of it is simply wrong. You may be happy to feel that way, but others do not. When we actually understand conciousness then you can use that as a basis for you argument...but science is very vocal about how little we know. I would argue that we do need to know

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Of course "damn near impossible to fall pregnant" misses a simple statistical point which is that a tiny % of a large number.... gives a large number. People can of course combine contraceptive methodologies... and many do.

But even the failure rate of them combined, when you divide it into the LARGE number of copulation that occur in a population of several million, will still result in a significant number of unwanted pregnancies.

And it's as simple as I said previously. If you are that adverse to a child and do not feel safe enough using several contraceptive methods...then do not engage in sexual intercourse. There exists a myriad of other activities which people can engage in to ensure this doesn't happen, yet still addresses the so called "carnal desire" people cannot seem to control. I

Exercising a little restraint for those who are so inclined to terminate, eliminates the problem from ever occuring to begin with. But restraint is a dirty word in a liberal indulgent context... and I imagine such trends will continue to snowball.

I understand the need for provisions very well and agree...but there's absolutely no need for abortion to occur for convienience purposes. That's simply addressing the issue the wrong way

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 03:48PM

seamus wrote: »

I stand corrected, apparently RTE are taking an exit poll tomorrow and Tubbers plans on discussing it on the Late Late after polls

No-one did an exit poll in the SSM referendum, but the result was clear from about 9:30 on the day of the count.

This Seanad referendum exit poll said it was too close to call, but it was just a tiny 100 vote sample, and the result was really close 51.7/48.3

Penn · 24-05-2018 03:52PM

deejer wrote: »

I am simple making the point that male/female, born/unborn has a right to life.

The issue, and it's more complex than simply saying the unborn has a right to life, is when that right infringes on the rights of the mother. A woman who under whatever circumstances is now pregnant with a baby she does not want, and does not want to carry to term.

A person's rights can only ever extend so far, whether they're born or unborn. A non-sentient, undeveloped baby's right to life should not be able to infringe on the rights of the woman who is already their own individual, and that right should include the right to not have to fulfill a baby's right to life if they don't want to.

I value the right to life. But I value it less for a still-gestating foetus than I value the right of the woman to choose whether or not she wishes to continue with the pregnancy.

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 03:53PM

A petition has been started for Ronan Mullen to resign from the Seanad after his disgraceful comments last night.

Link here, for anyone who might want to sign.

It currently has 3.8k signatures.

Macha · 24-05-2018 03:53PM

deejer wrote: »

I know the easiest thing for you to do is to write me off as misogynistic or sexist. But I don't think that even makes sense. And its probably why alot of men find it difficult to put their opinions forward. I am simple making the point that male/female, born/unborn has a right to life.

As a woman it is incredibly hard to hear someone saying I shouldn't have any bodily integrity while I'm pregnant, that my life, my health is equal to the right to life of a 12 week foetus. I find it degrading and dehumanising and terrifying.

I am a mother. I have a 2-year old son who has a serious medical condition and he needs me to fight for his medical care. I also lost my mother last year to cancer and my father also had cancer so between all three of them plus the missed miscarriage last year, I have spent more time in hospitals in the last three years than I would wish anyone did in their lifetime.

I look after my son's medical care because we live in Belgium and my partner doesn't speak French (I do). My mental health is extremely fragile and I suffer from severe anxiety. We are actually trying for another baby but if I were to have a baby with FFA, I am SO relieved that I live in a country that would respect my decision to end that pregnancy. My son doesn't just need me to be alive, he needs me to be healthy. And hey, I think I deserve that for myself too. I matter too. Life is messy and **** and you plan for things but it doesn't always work out like you want. I never expected to be here in my mid-thirties without my mother and with such fragile mental health but here I am.

As an aside, I don't think it's fair of you to dismiss criticism as the reason why men find it difficult to put their opinions forward.

Trasna1 · 24-05-2018 03:55PM

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

Irregardless of my opinion, Im openly welcoming the end of this referendum. Both sides have now come full circle meeting in the centre, behaving as bad as each other. What ever the result, I’m hoping both sides will be willing to accept & respect it.

From the yes side damaging/defacing & removing NO campaign posters, to the NO side with their invasive & less empathetic neolithic approach. Personally I have only witnessed NO campaign posters being defaced. Im sure there has been YES posters defaced too, Im not doubting that for a second. When the posters are burnt, they completely disintegrate while leaving the melted plastic or material stuck to ground and all down the post like spilled wax. Its disgusting to witness and to see.

Both sides have not been equally represented by media, all platforms have pushed their liberal agenda on the topic showing clear bias & support for YES campaign. Over the course of this campaign I feel that I have been dictated towards, that I have been continuously told what the socially acceptable thing is to do, while being coupled with very vague & recycled arguments from the 'rent a crowd' campaigners/members .

To be offended, it is a choice to do so. As offence is taken, not given. The yes vote take offence when you simply show interest in a reason to vote against or simply if you obtain a different opinion to them. If your a man your vote matters, but only if its yes, because if you vote no , that is a vote against women and you simply have no right to vote on a choice that effects a woman.

What tipped me over the edge was the communal outrage over social media and the usage of the inexplicable murders of Natalia Karaczyn Anastasia Kriegel & Jastine Valdez over the past couple weeks. It takes a special type of bitterness to use such a tragedy to push your political agenda. Two woman & a child have had their lives taken from them over a short space of time. The yes side melodramatically asserting that (all) men don't respect woman, its just beyond pathetic and straight out nonsense.

From the start, I knew what my vote was going to be and that it was not going to be swayed. My vote is based on the right to choose and not based on opinion. My opinion is irrelevant to the matter at hand , as it is MY opinion and not the opinion of the person who may be affected by as issue that may arise.

Whatever way the vote goes (and barring a major upset, it will be yes) there's going to be a significant minority that will feel totally alienated in the country they live in.

Whatever way it goes, I would like to see graciousness and humility from the winning side, and a willingness to unite. I doubt we will see that though unfortunately.

Macha · 24-05-2018 03:56PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

Whatever way the vote goes (and barring a major upset, it will be yes) there's going to be a significant minority that will feel totally alienated in the country they live in.

Whatever way it goes, I would like to see graciousness and humility from the winning side, and a willingness to unite. I doubt we will see that though unfortunately.

Referendums are almost always divisive rather than uniting.

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 03:56PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

Whatever way the vote goes (and barring a major upset, it will be yes) there's going to be a significant minority that will feel totally alienated in the country they live in.

Whatever way it goes, I would like to see graciousness and humility from the winning side, and a willingness to unite. I doubt we will see that though unfortunately.

I'm desperate for Yes to win, but there won't be any celebrations. Just relief.
We won't have to fight anymore, and things will finally be as they should always have been.

Cina · 24-05-2018 03:58PM

deejer wrote: »

I know the easiest thing for you to do is to write me off as misogynistic or sexist. But I don't think that even makes sense. And its probably why alot of men find it difficult to put their opinions forward. I am simple making the point that male/female, born/unborn has a right to life.

Indeed, for centuries, if not millennia now, men have truly struggled to put their opinions forward.

As a fellow man I wouldn't say you're misogynistic or sexist due to your views on this, I would say you are sadly misguided or misinformed or simply have an outright awful, awful opinion if you genuinely believe that women should have no autonomy of their own body when it comes to a fetus they have to carry inside it.

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Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 04:01PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

Whatever way it goes, I would like to see graciousness and humility from the winning side, and a willingness to unite.

If Yes wins, I am happy to forget that people voted No, and I'm sure most will be happy to forget it and move on.

I am not happy to forget the core No campaign, though. The Ionanists are on my list for life.

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 04:04PM

Macha wrote: »

As a woman it is incredibly hard to hear someone saying I shouldn't have any bodily integrity while I'm pregnant, that my life, my health is equal to the right to life of a 12 week foetus. I find it degrading and dehumanising and terrifying.

This. 1000 times this. I would be devastated if a partner valued my life less than the fetus I was carrying and was content for me to be placed second.

Grayditch · 24-05-2018 04:04PM

Sure the sky is still there after the Marriage Equality Referendum, which is a good sign.

circadian · 24-05-2018 04:05PM

Vlad Kelly wrote: »

Unfortunately kid just because you live in a libby echo chamber and all your friends are epic libs doesn't mean the whole country is. I'm literally all set to nut if the NO side wins!

Awwwwwwww those sweet salty librul tears ohmygeeeeerd.

Am I doing this right?

....... · 24-05-2018 04:05PM

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The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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