The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

24-05-2018 02:23PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Again January, pregnant rape victims are a tiny minority of pregnant women.
I wish someone had stats on this by the way.
Help should be given including abortion if requested for rape victims. But stripping rights for all unborn is not the best option and is a dangerous move imo.

This is my last post on this as I have to do a bit of work and those bills won't pay themselves.

People know where I stand, if they don't read back my posts.

I wish everyone luck tomorrow, make sure to vote one way or the other.

And no reply about the trauma of putting victims through a test to prove they were raped..............

AlexisM · 24-05-2018 02:24PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

But putting an over-whelming majority of unborn babies at risk is not the answer.

The overwhelming majority of unborn babies are planned, wanted and loved. How are these at risk?

AtomicHorror · 24-05-2018 02:24PM

bubblypop wrote: »

And no reply about the trauma of putting victims through a test to prove they were raped..............

Even having to tell someone about it is more trauma. The lack of empathy here is staggering.

Calina · 24-05-2018 02:25PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Macha wrote: »

Sorry but there is NO way to allow rape victims adequate access to terminations as soon as possible without re-traumatising them without the 12-week proposal.

That was the conclusion of the Oireachtas Committee that examined the issue.

So it is EXACTLY to accommodate rape victims that the 12-week proposal is there.

Ok with allowing abortion for rape victims who have been examined as part of a rape investigation which they are already.
Not ok with allowing abortion to any woman who comes in and lies and may even accuse someone in the wrong of rape just so she can have an abortion. And accusing someone in the wrong of rape does happen.

And we are back to not trusting women.

Out of interest, have you been sexually assaulted?

I can tell you that if I were raped in Ireland I would think long and hard about reporting it given that Irish society favours the rapist for the most part. The court process is tipped in favour of the defendent. The rape victim very often doesn't see justice. The process you outline, a process which imposes obligations on someone who has already been violated is torture. You are doing it not because you care about a rape victim but because you don't. She is just a bump on your road to codding yourself that Irish babies all get happily born.

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 02:25PM

AlexisM wrote: »

The overwhelming majority of unborn babies are planned, wanted and loved. How are these at risk?

He's implying that all women will run out to abort their full term babies just for lols, as if the 8th was the only thing on earth keeping their murderous tendencies at bay.

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 02:26PM

bubblypop wrote: »

How did you pick this particular time? Why not fertilisation?

The timeline went:

1982 Pro-lifers: Life begins at conception!
1983: 8th amendment protects the "unborn" without saying what an unborn is.
:
2009 Supreme Court: Whatever the feck "unborn" is supposed to mean, it cannot mean an embryo that has never been in a woman's womb as its right to life only exists in a clause alongside its mother, so IVF embryos are not covered by the 8th.

2009 Pro-lifers: That's what we meant all along! Life begins at conception implantation!

AtomicHorror · 24-05-2018 02:28PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Again January, pregnant rape victims are a tiny minority of pregnant women.
I wish someone had stats on this by the way.
Help should be given including abortion if requested for rape victims. But stripping rights for all unborn is not the best option and is a dangerous move imo.

This is my last post on this as I have to do a bit of work and those bills won't pay themselves.

People know where I stand, if they don't read back my posts.

I wish everyone luck tomorrow, make sure to vote one way or the other.

Your wish of luck is unwelcome. Any positive sentiment from you is unwelcome. This is not a sporting event, or a polite little game. It's war, and you are on the wrong side.

I wish you defeat, disappointment and, with the benefit of hindsight, regret for your failures of empathy, logic and knowledge.

Ush1 · 24-05-2018 02:30PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Your wish of luck is unwelcome. Any positive sentiment from you is unwelcome. This is not a sporting event, or a polite little game. It's war, and you are on the wrong side.

I wish you defeat, disappointment and, with the benefit of hindsight, regret for your failures of empathy, logic and knowledge.

Tell us how you really feel though...:pac:

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 02:30PM

Sadly, folks, it is the very last day, the last window for randomers to arrive in this thread as the great nation of the United States of America logs in at work, to pop in here, tell us they are on the fence and hit us with a bunch of canned prolife talking points.

I'll be sorry to see this tradition end.

January · 24-05-2018 02:30PM

'Handy abortion'

Says it all really.

Mrhuth · 24-05-2018 02:33PM

I am definitely repeal but I am not sure about the rest of Ireland. The outrage will be insane if the no side wins, Ireland will continue to stay this pathetic backwards nation and women will have to go to the UK to get an abortion at least for the next 20 or 30 years.

spookwoman · 24-05-2018 02:34PM

Mrhuth wrote: »

I am definitely repeal but I am not sure about the rest of Ireland. The outrage will be insane if the no side wins, Ireland will continue to stay this pathetic backwards nation and women will have to go to the UK to get an abortion at least for the next 20 or 30 years.

My other concern is if its a no whats going to happen when brexit kicks in

Mint Sauce · 24-05-2018 02:35PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Sadly, folks, it is the very last day, the last window for randomers to arrive in this thread as the great nation of the United States of America logs in at work, to pop in here, tell us they are on the fence and hit us with a bunch of canned prolife talking points.

I'll be sorry to see this tradition end.

Will the mods be locking the thread at 10pm, and put an end to the madness.

....... · 24-05-2018 02:36PM

This post has been deleted.

Mrhuth · 24-05-2018 02:37PM

spookwoman wrote: »

My other concern is if its a no whats going to happen when brexit kicks in

I haven't thought about that but I can't imagine. Women will have to go to France or other nearby countries to substitute. If Northern Ireland wasn't retarded as well then it would help. It would be an even worse nightmare to go to a completely foreign country where everyone speaks a different language.

24-05-2018 02:37PM

Howdy fellow Irishers!

Just dropping by to say vote NO. Praise Jesus

deejer · 24-05-2018 02:38PM

I am voting no tomorrow. I am male, a father and in my 30's. I am not particularly religious (I am saying that to make a point that it is not a factor in my decision).

I have come in and out of this thread over the last few weeks just to get a feel for the discussions and debates that are happening. In my own walk of life there is very little discussion on what way people are going to vote. The only people I have really discussed it with are my immediate family. Nothing in the canteen and work. I often feel uncomfortable bringing it up and I guess others are the same. I am comfortable in my view point though.

There are a couple of points I want to make just to put my opinions out there. They are general - I am not going to get into the details of particular situations that can arise. They are so many (being used by both the yes and no side) that I think people end up getting even more confused.

The core of my opinion is actually within what the 8th Amendments actually says at the moment. The baby/fetus/unborn has an equal right to life. I find it hard to get past that. The fact that we are going to replace the current language to state that "provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy" really bother me. Given this is the only right to life our constitution affords the unborn.

My kids became real to me when I found out my wife was pregnant. They were certainly real when we went for the first scan which happened between the 10-12 week mark. At that time they had an equal right to life, same as me, my wife, or anyone else. I strongly believe everyone deserves that right.

Also, in my opinion, I don't believe women should have bodily autonomy when it comes to the pregnancy. I think it is too simple to show this as a human rights issue. I believe pregnancy creates a responsibility on the woman to care for the unborn baby. I know - easy for me to say as a man. But that's my opinion.

I have seen alot of comments from people in this thread that they can't understand why people are getting so bothered about this since it may have no effect on them. The "you still don't have to get an abortion if you don't want to" argument. This is a cop out. We are discussing a fundamental change to the constitution of our country that will have a serious social change long into the future. This proposed change will effect us all and it is important that our decision is made based on what we want for our country.

I know there are a multitude of situations where things aren't black and white and where difficult decision have to be made. The constitution as it is, isn't perfect and making the change isn't going to resolve all the issues either - far from it. But we have to approach resolving these issues maintaining our core principles. For me the right to life of everyone, born and unborn is a core principle that should form the basis of how we approach resolving these issues.

I just wanted to put this down in writing. I would encourage everyone to get out and vote tomorrow.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 02:39PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Your wish of luck is unwelcome. Any positive sentiment from you is unwelcome. This is not a sporting event, or a polite little game. It's war, and you are on the wrong side.

I wish you defeat, disappointment and, with the benefit of hindsight, regret for your failures of empathy, logic and knowledge.

I will return to stick an immature bitter little man like you on ignore so I don't have to ever read your posts again.
Ignore is a great thing, use it wisely

voz es · 24-05-2018 02:39PM

Abortion leads to female healthcare, leads to female choice you wonder?

I think its as easily abused and mothers forced to abort their babies.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44237095

AtomicHorror · 24-05-2018 02:40PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Tell us how you really feel though...:pac:

Tumbleweed.

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 02:40PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I will return to stick an immature bitter little man like you on ignore so I don't have to ever read your posts again.
Ignore is a great thing, use it wisely

Good advice.

Mrhuth · 24-05-2018 02:40PM

deejer wrote: »

I am voting no tomorrow. I am male, a father and in my 30's. I am not particularly religious (I am saying that to make a point that it is not a factor in my decision).

I have come in and out of this thread over the last few weeks just to get a feel for the discussions and debates that are happening. In my own walk of life there is very little discussion on what way people are going to vote. The only people I have really discussed it with are my immediate family. Nothing in the canteen and work. I often feel uncomfortable bringing it up and I guess others are the same. I am comfortable in my view point though.

There are a couple of points I want to make just to put my opinions out there. They are general - I am not going to get into the details of particular situations that can arise. They are so many (being used by both the yes and no side) that I think people end up getting even more confused.

The core of my opinion is actually within what the 8th Amendments actually says at the moment. The baby/fetus/unborn has an equal right to life. I find it hard to get past that. The fact that we are going to replace the current language to state that "provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy" really bother me. Given this is the only right to life our constitution affords the unborn.

My kids became real to me when I found out my wife was pregnant. They were certainly real when we went for the first scan which happened between the 10-12 week mark. At that time they had an equal right to life, same as me, my wife, or anyone else. I strongly believe everyone deserves that right.

Also, in my opinion, I don't believe women should have bodily autonomy when it comes to the pregnancy. I think it is too simple to show this as a human rights issue. I believe pregnancy creates a responsibility on the woman to care for the unborn baby. I know - easy for me to say as a man. But that's my opinion.

I have seen alot of comments from people in this thread that they can't understand why people are getting so bothered about this since it may have no effect on them. The "you still don't have to get an abortion if you don't want to" argument. This is a cop out. We are discussing a fundamental change to the constitution of our country that will have a serious social change long into the future. This proposed change will effect us all and it is important that our decision is made based on what we want for our country.

I know there are a multitude of situations where things aren't black and white and where difficult decision have to be made. The constitution as it is, isn't perfect and making the change isn't going to resolve all the issues either - far from it. But we have to approach resolving these issues maintaining our core principles. For me the right to life of everyone, born and unborn is a core principle that should form the basis of how we approach resolving these issues.

I just wanted to put this down in writing. I would encourage everyone to get out and vote tomorrow.

And I will vote yes to counteract your no. You said things aren't black and white yet you're going to vote no and force the almost 2000 women to go UK to get an abortion? You're an idiot.

January · 24-05-2018 02:41PM

deejer wrote: »

I am voting no tomorrow. I am male, a father and in my 30's. I am not particularly religious (I am saying that to make a point that it is not a factor in my decision).

I have come in and out of this thread over the last few weeks just to get a feel for the discussions and debates that are happening. In my own walk of life there is very little discussion on what way people are going to vote. The only people I have really discussed it with are my immediate family. Nothing in the canteen and work. I often feel uncomfortable bringing it up and I guess others are the same. I am comfortable in my view point though.

There are a couple of points I want to make just to put my opinions out there. They are general - I am not going to get into the details of particular situations that can arise. They are so many (being used by both the yes and no side) that I think people end up getting even more confused.

The core of my opinion is actually within what the 8th Amendments actually says at the moment. The baby/fetus/unborn has an equal right to life. I find it hard to get past that. The fact that we are going to replace the current language to state that "provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy" really bother me. Given this is the only right to life our constitution affords the unborn.

My kids became real to me when I found out my wife was pregnant. They were certainly real when we went for the first scan which happened between the 10-12 week mark. At that time they had an equal right to life, same as me, my wife, or anyone else. I strongly believe everyone deserves that right.

Also, in my opinion, I don't believe women should have bodily autonomy when it comes to the pregnancy. I think it is too simple to show this as a human rights issue. I believe pregnancy creates a responsibility on the woman to care for the unborn baby. I know - easy for me to say as a man. But that's my opinion.

I have seen alot of comments from people in this thread that they can't understand why people are getting so bothered about this since it may have no effect on them. The "you still don't have to get an abortion if you don't want to" argument. This is a cop out. We are discussing a fundamental change to the constitution of our country that will have a serious social change long into the future. This proposed change will effect us all and it is important that our decision is made based on what we want for our country.

I know there are a multitude of situations where things aren't black and white and where difficult decision have to be made. The constitution as it is, isn't perfect and making the change isn't going to resolve all the issues either - far from it. But we have to approach resolving these issues maintaining our core principles. For me the right to life of everyone, born and unborn is a core principle that should form the basis of how we approach resolving these issues.

I just wanted to put this down in writing. I would encourage everyone to get out and vote tomorrow.

So just let them continue to go to England or to take abortion pills illegally in their bedrooms? That's your solution is it?

....... · 24-05-2018 02:42PM

This post has been deleted.

AtomicHorror · 24-05-2018 02:42PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I will return to stick an immature bitter little man like you on ignore so I don't have to ever read your posts again.
Ignore is a great thing, use it wisely

A shame you won't be able to put the result on mute. Have fun on Saturday.

spookwoman · 24-05-2018 02:44PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

A shame you won't be able to put the result on mute. Have fun on Saturday.

Getting called bitter is a badge of honor

Means they know they cant win the argument

retro:electro · 24-05-2018 02:44PM

deejer wrote: »

Also, in my opinion, I don't believe women should have bodily autonomy when it comes to the pregnancy.

Grim. Do you have a daughter? Would you be comfortable saying this to her if she was to ever get pregnant?

c.p.w.g.w · 24-05-2018 02:45PM

spookwoman wrote: »

My other concern is if its a no whats going to happen when brexit kicks in

Back alley abortions and women dying as a result, the people who voted No will have those mother's blood on their hands

Sorry if the truth of the matter offends

24-05-2018 02:46PM

deejer wrote: »

Also, in my opinion, I don't believe women should have bodily autonomy when it comes to the pregnancy. I think it is too simple to show this as a human rights issue. I believe pregnancy creates a responsibility on the woman to care for the unborn baby. I know - easy for me to say as a man. But that's my opinion.

.

How would you feel about giving up your own body autonomy for the duration of your wife's pregnancy?
If you need medical treatment you can wait until the baby is born.
No solpadeine for a hangover, no painkiller for torn muscles.......

Everytime you go to the doctor, he will say he has to check your wife's pregnancy first, before he can even look at you?

While I understand the concern for the unborn, surely your wife, her health is worth more to you than the unknown unborn?
Surely you would wish her to have every treatment that she wishes if she gets sick while pregnant?

nozzferrahhtoo · 24-05-2018 02:46PM

deejer wrote: »

My kids became real to me when I found out my wife was pregnant.

And my kids became "real to me" the very moment we decided we were going to have them. Which is even BEFORE conception therefore.

But I recognize that "real to me" is a statement of personal narrative, not of actual reality. And it is morally questionable that you are essentially using your vote to force your personal narratives on to others who do not share them.

deejer wrote: »

I strongly believe everyone deserves that right.

Which does not make you unique, or differentiate you from a pro-choice speaker at all. I too believe everyone deserves a right to life. I strongly believe that in fact. Who knows, maybe even stronger than you do.

The difference only lies in both WHEN and WHY I believe each "someone" attains that right.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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