The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

erica74 · 24-05-2018 11:39AM

murpho999 wrote: »

How do you know all this stuff?

How do you know how many rapes are reported?

It's a hugely traumatic experience to be raped. Then to discover a pregnancy adds to that trauma.

So you propose that this extremely traumatised woman must basically prove she has been raped within a 12 week period before being permitted an abortion?

It's crazy and totally cruel. I would not want to live in that society.

Legislate for 12 weeks and the victim can quietly and safely have an abortion without judgement and let her try to get her life back together.

If others who have not been raped but for whatever personal reason want to avail of that 12 week window then it's their choice.

If others don't and they wish to carry on their pregnancy as the majority of women do then they will do so.

It's simply a matter of choice, understanding , trust and compassion for me.

I wouldn't bother wasting your time Shurimgreat isn't interested in backing up anything he/she says. He/she will be along now to say he/she can't respond to everyone, when in reality, he/she just can't back up their claims and doesn't want to answer questions.

Timberrrrrrrr · 24-05-2018 11:39AM

spookwoman wrote: »

You cannot force anyone to report their rape. That is why they are looking for 12 weeks. 8% conviction so by using your standards not even 8 % would be able to get an abortion if they got raped and impregnated because they would have to wait to go to trial and get a conviction which takes well over 9 months

Ah im sure one of them won't be long recommending the rape committees that have been suggested a few times already.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 24-05-2018 11:39AM

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

They start counting on Saturday and unlike an election its a Yes pile, No pile and incomplete/damaged pile.

We will get results as soon as they start counting. There will be invigilators checking to make sure that no mistakes with the piles have been made. And they may even be checked again.

No there will be little talk about it on the actual night, until after 10pm, on tv and radio as they aren't allowed to talk during the opening hours of the referendum.

There will also be an exit poll tomorrow evening which will give a very clear indication of how things are going.

Personally I think the Yes vote will win, but I hope I am wrong.

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 11:39AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The blackout means all serious debate must cease, so bickering, mockery and bum sex talk only from 2 pm.

....... · 24-05-2018 11:40AM

This post has been deleted.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 11:40AM

erica74 wrote: »

You made a claim, you back it up.

When did I say it's always solely a woman's decision?

Here's just the start. I will post more after lunch. Hopefully you read every line of these articles.

https://www.pop.org/many-american-women-felt-pressured-abortions-study-finds/

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/hidden-abortion-pressure-revealed-20090901-f6tk.html

Nettle Soup · 24-05-2018 11:41AM

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

SusieBlue wrote: »

In fairness he made a plethora of stupidly worded remarks last night.

Peadar Toibín was marginally better the night before, but he still stuttered and deflected before he all but admitted he'd fore a child to remain pregnant in cases of rape.

I thought Peadar Toibín made lots of good points on Prime Time personally. I didn't find Simon Harris very convincing. But I suppose, whichever side you're voting with, you will always see them as coming out best.

I do agree, though, that Ronán didn't help the No vote. But please can posters stop assuming his comment on mental health reflects the views of all No voters, because it doesn't.

Did Maria contradict Ronan? Or did she stand there and let Ronan judge that young woman?

storker · 24-05-2018 11:41AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The blackout means all serious debate must cease, so bickering, mockery and bum sex talk only from 2 pm.

If there was more bum sex there would probably be less abortions. Maybe the Iona institute should lobby for that...

....... · 24-05-2018 11:41AM

This post has been deleted.

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 11:42AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The blackout means all serious debate must cease, so bickering, mockery and bum sex talk only from 2 pm.

Yesss!! I love bum sex talk!

Billy86 · 24-05-2018 11:42AM

Shurimgreat wrote:

Most rapes are investigated by gardai and medical experts anyways. But you knew that already. And if they aren't then women should immediately seek garda and medical assistance. This is the responsible advice to any woman.

Again, something to be left to medical experts not armchair analysts.

By that logic, we shouldn't be having a referendum tomorrow and instead should defer to a medical council on the matter (or a vote of all licenced medical experts). Somehow I feel if that were the case though, that the no side would be kicking off stink to a whole new level, even compared to the last few months.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 11:42AM

erica74 wrote: »

I wouldn't bother wasting your time Shurimgreat isn't interested in backing up anything he/she says. He/she will be along now to say he/she can't respond to everyone, when in reality, he/she just can't back up their claims and doesn't want to answer questions.

Did you see my new post then?

I have a feeling we will spend this afternoon going over countless articles.

Get reading Erica and chat after my lunch break.

storker · 24-05-2018 11:42AM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Did Maria contradict Ronan? Or did she stand there and let Ronan judge that young woman?

I think she just stared at him.

It wasnt me123 · 24-05-2018 11:42AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Grow up FFS.

We are trying to have a mature discussion here and posts like yours are not helping.

On no your not.

Your first post was em, not sure but it this what the referendum means? And then went into full NO mode. You can have an opinion, and we can disagree. But go do your research - all your questions have been asked and answered and if you wanted a mature discussion cos you weren't sure, you left it a bit late to start your research.

Answer the questions you've been asked or go do your research but no good throwing your toys out of the pram cos no-one cares

_Dara_ · 24-05-2018 11:43AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Yes, there would need to be at least some evidence to back it up. Again my opinion.

Most rapes are investigated by gardai and medical experts anyways. But you knew that already. And if they aren't then women should immediately seek garda and medical assistance. This is the responsible advice to any woman.

Again, something to be left to medical experts not armchair analysts.

I do know. BUT if a woman delays reporting the rape by a few days because she’s traumatised, physical evidence is usually long gone. In a case like that, what’s the solution?

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 11:44AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes side ask me to post support for my argument that women are often pressurized by male partners thus blowing a hole in the argument that women always have a choice.
Then they reject it. Laughable really.
They want articles to back it up then cry foul when you provide them.

Timberrrrrrrr · 24-05-2018 11:44AM

storker wrote: »

If there was more bum sex there would probably be less abortions. Maybe the Iona institute should lobby for that...

Oh Oh oh....new pro choice slogan!

Don't have a nipper, take it up the gicker

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 11:45AM

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

On no your not.

Your first post was em, not sure but it this what the referendum means? And then went into full NO mode. You can have an opinion, and we can disagree. But go do your research - all your questions have been asked and answered and if you wanted a mature discussion cos you weren't sure, you left it a bit late to start your research.

Answer the questions you've been asked or go do your research but no good throwing your toys out of the pram cos no-one cares

Yes I wanted full clarity and also clarity for other people more so.
But thanks for your input.

wexie · 24-05-2018 11:46AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Oh Oh oh....new pro choice slogan!

Don't have a nipper, take it up the gicker

abortions are so banal....

Noo · 24-05-2018 11:47AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Secondly, if you believe that abortion is always solely a woman's decision, particularly in a marriage, then you are naïve in the extreme. I am sure some women on here have unfortunately experience of this situation and the discussions they had with male partners or even their parents.

Funnily enough, this morning was the first time i discussed the referendum with my partner. We live on the otherside of the world so unfortunately we don't get to vote, but as an irish woman of child bearing age ive been following it all intensively. Anyway he's not one for politics or current affairs so I haven't really brought it up with him, but this morning he saw me reading an article...

Him: what you reading?
Me: an article about the referendum
Him: the abortion one?
Me: yep its happening tomorrow
Him: so do men get a say in it?
(Heres me thinking he's asking if a man gets a say in a woman choice to abort)
Me: eh no, i wouldn't think so
Him: then why are men voting?
(Me a little confused at this stage)
Him: why should men be allowed to vote in something that has nothing to do with them?

I explained that democracy doesnt work like that but that most men will hopefully vote on behalf of their wives, daughters, nieces etc.

Conclusion: No it is not naive to think that it is solely the decision of the woman, I think you will find that a lot of respectful men will support their partners decision.

It wasnt me123 · 24-05-2018 11:49AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Yesss!! I love bum sex talk!

We have all clearly been on this thread way too long as we are getting so excited over bickering and bum sex, but not necessarily in that order.

I will be glad when this referendum is over but as a comitted Yes voter, I have learnt alot as well so thank you for everyone who shared their opinion, regardless of whether I agreed or not, all information helps.

Now lets all hold hands and have an auld prayer for a Yes

murpho999 · 24-05-2018 11:50AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Here's just the start. I will post more after lunch. Hopefully you read every line of these articles.

https://www.pop.org/many-american-women-felt-pressured-abortions-study-finds/

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/hidden-abortion-pressure-revealed-20090901-f6tk.html

First one is a link from an anti abortion US group whilst the other is an Australian opinion piece

Can you post anything that is unbiased and is based on verifiable facts not just some people's opinions?

spookwoman · 24-05-2018 11:50AM

Noo wrote: »

Funnily enough, this morning was the first time i discussed the referendum with my partner. We live on the otherside of the world so unfortunately we don't get to vote, but as an irish woman of child bearing age ive been following it all intensively. Anyway he's not one for politics or current affairs so I haven't really brought it up with him, but this morning he saw me reading an article...

Him: what you reading?
Me: an article about the referendum
Him: the abortion one?
Me: yep its happening tomorrow
Him: so do men get a say in it?
(Heres me thinking he's asking if a man gets a say in a woman choice to abort)
Me: eh no, i wouldn't think so
Him: then why are men voting?
(Me a little confused at this stage)
Him: why should men be allowed to vote in something that has nothing to do with them?

I explained that democracy doesnt work like that but that most men will hopefully vote on behalf of their wives, daughters, nieces etc.

Conclusion: No it is not naive to think that it is solely the decision of the woman, I think you will find that a lot of respectful men will support their partners decision.

My father is the same, he can't vote unfortunately but his view is this is a woman's issue and nothing to do with men.

_Dara_ · 24-05-2018 11:51AM

Declan Ganley’s worst point last night (among many): when asked how it’s practical to legislate for rape, he started wittering on about tougher sentences for rapists. How does that help the woman pregnant by rape?

ArmaniJeanss · 24-05-2018 11:52AM

AnSliabhCorcra wrote: »

This may have been asked or covered elsewhere; if so, please forgive. When is it likely that the result of the referendum will be announced? Will we have feelers on the night of the referendum or is it more likely to take a few days thereafter?

They start counting on Saturday morning around 10am I think.
Won't be an official overall result until late in the day but the tallypeople who oversee might well be able to call it with a high degree of accuracy after about 10 minutes.
i.e.., if boxes in Dublin are coming out at just 55% Yes then it's a clear No signal, or if the boxes in Donegal are coming out at 48% Yes then it's a clear Yes signal etc. They'll be able to extrapolate the early info and calculate whether its an overall Y/N or if it's too close to call.

_Dara_ · 24-05-2018 11:54AM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

They start counting on Saturday morning around 10am I think.
Won't be an official overall result until late in the day but the tallypeople who oversee might well be able to call it with a high degree of accuracy after about 10 minutes.
i.e.., if boxes in Dublin are coming out at just 55% Yes then it's a clear No signal, or if the boxes in Donegal are coming out at 48% Yes then it's a clear Yes signal etc. They'll be able to extrapolate the early info and calculate whether its an overall Y/N or if it's too close to call.

Very interesting. Thanks, ArmaniJeanss!

Pedro K · 24-05-2018 11:54AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Yes, there would need to be at least some evidence to back it up. Again my opinion.

Most rapes are investigated by gardai and medical experts anyways. But you knew that already. And if they aren't then women should immediately seek garda and medical assistance. This is the responsible advice to any woman.

Again, something to be left to medical experts not armchair analysts.

I know a woman who was raped and never reported it. Took her years to even accept the fact that she was raped. This wasn't a case of her having consensual sex and changing her mind or anything after the fact. It was rape.

Had she become pregnant, should she have been forced to report to Gardai immediately?

Grayditch · 24-05-2018 11:56AM

"Yous you did really well in the debates, lads."
Harris / Mary Lou: So when the election comes aro..
"Grrreat chatting to yous, take it handy."

erica74 · 24-05-2018 11:56AM

....... wrote: »

Whats the point of this?

Women get pressured now. Nothing changes if abortion is legal here only pressured women have one less stressful element - the travel.

Oh to be fair, I asked for this because he/she made a claim that "many women were pressurized into an abortion" but I must have missed it because I added him/her to my ignore list. I presumed he/she had evidence about Irish women, or at least women from the UK, obviously not.

An anti abortion group are hardly going to provide unbiased information. And a near 10 year old article from Australia. That's some "evidence".

nozzferrahhtoo · 24-05-2018 11:57AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Yes side ask me to post support for my argument that women are often pressurized by male partners thus blowing a hole in the argument that women always have a choice.
Then they reject it. Laughable really.
They want articles to back it up then cry foul when you provide them.

Couple of issues there.

The first is that being pressured does not mean you do not have a choice. So you did not "blow a hole" in anything really. Pressure can INFLUENCE your choice, but it does not remove it. And comically your own link makes that point, which suggests you did little to actually read the links you are expecting people here to read. Quote: "Many women wrote about pressure from others and feeling as if they had no choice at the time; yet the majority seemed to assume responsibility for their decision as opposed to blaming others". So these women recognize the distinction you fail to, between pressure and choice.

The second however is that your links are really vague. At best. For example if you search the first one (the paper itself, not the opinion piece based on the paper) for the word "pressure" you get only the most vague results. It suggests many women "perceived pressure from others to abort". That does not mean there actually WAS any, it just means they perceived it.

Even worse though the women were not reporting pressure themselves. Rather the study questions were formulated in a way to place that idea in the subjects head. This you can see in the line "73.8% disagreed that their decision to abort was entirely free from even subtle pressure from others to abort".

Worst of all however is the paper fails entirely to quantify what they even mean by "pressure". They just leave the word hanging there vaguely for people like yourself to fill in the meaning of as you see fit.

So I really do not think your link is as powerful as you appear to think it is. That pressure exists..... not just to abort but also NOT to abort............. is not in doubt I think. But where you are leaping to with that idea very much is.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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