Electoral Register could damage referendum integrity

2ygb4cmqetsjhx · 23-05-2018 10:22am #1

So through strange occurrences I have a polling card even though I have not lived in Ireland in 7 years. I will be in Ireland on the day of the referendum. Strictly speaking I am ineligible to vote as I left Ireland over 18 months ago however I am sure with the Polling card and driving license I could rock up to the polling station and vote with ease.

The temptation to vote is killing me and I would love to vote on this issue but I don't want to for two reasons:

It damanges the integrity of the referendum
I fear there will be investigations if this referendum goes to the wire

Anybody else in the same situation?

thegreatgonzo · 23-05-2018 11:49am

I'm not but i have heard worrying reports about a number of students in Galway who arent citizens receiving polling cards. It was on keith finnegan on galway bay fm and harry mcgee also covered it in the Irish Times. I'm on my phone so I can't post a link. I'm very concerned about it because there is no clarity as to where the mistake was made and if it confined to just one local authority.

listermint · 23-05-2018 1:06pm

Bria Bewildered Child wrote: »

So through strange occurrences I have a polling card even though I have not lived in Ireland in 7 years. I will be in Ireland on the day of the referendum. Strictly speaking I am ineligible to vote as I left Ireland over 18 months ago however I am sure with the Polling card and driving license I could rock up to the polling station and vote with ease.

The temptation to vote is killing me and I would love to vote on this issue but I don't want to for two reasons:
It damanges the integrity of the referendum

I fear there will be investigations if this referendum goes to the wire

Anybody else in the same situation?

you do know 18 months is not 7 years.

Right....

Just for clarifications sake.

I see the excuses are coming out early.

Red_Wake · 23-05-2018 1:48pm

thegreatgonzo wrote: »

I'm not but i have heard worrying reports about a number of students in Galway who arent citizens receiving polling cards. It was on keith finnegan on galway bay fm and harry mcgee also covered it in the Irish Times. I'm on my phone so I can't post a link. I'm very concerned about it because there is no clarity as to where the mistake was made and if it confined to just one local authority.

I'd be interested to hear more about this.

The electoral integrity aspect is very fair. We hear a lot of stories about people coming home to vote, but little about the fact that a significant portion aren't legally entitled to vote, and that the bureaucracy is allowing this.

While I don't particularly care about this referendum, I'm not comfortable with allowing government mistakes giving voting rights to people who are visitors in the country rather than residents. Future referendums on issues I do actually care about could be swung by people who'll jet off and not have to live with the consequences.

Chips Lovell · 23-05-2018 2:01pm

The electoral register is never going to be 100% accurate, simply because the people maintaining it aren't omniscient and are relying on a.) people being honest in stating who is resident at a certain address when they're periodically updating it and b.) people who move notifying them of that fact.

All they can do is ensure that it is as accurate as they can make it and keep errors to a minimum. Of course, if someone finds themselves on the register when they shouldn't be, it's incumbent on them not to abuse that.

oscarBravo · 23-05-2018 2:17pm

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The electoral register is never going to be 100% accurate, simply because the people maintaining it aren't omniscient and are relying on a.) people being honest in stating who is resident at a certain address when they're periodically updating it and b.) people who move notifying them of that fact.

All they can do is ensure that it is as accurate as they can make it and keep errors to a minimum. Of course, if someone finds themselves on the register when they shouldn't be, it's incumbent on them not to abuse that.

Alternatively, we could get over our quaint mistrust of authority and implement something like Denmark does, where it's a legal requirement to keep the government informed of where you live. Denmark doesn't have a periodic census; it doesn't need one. It also doesn't need a piecemeal process to try to keep an electoral register updated.

But we won't. We'll continue to subscribe to our gut instinct to tell the government as little as possible, and then grumble when the government can't keep track of us.

Chips Lovell · 23-05-2018 2:45pm

Given the outcry about the Public Services card, it's hard to see that happen.

No system is perfect though. Even if it was mandatory to register your address with the authorities, you'll still get some people who won't.

denismc · 23-05-2018 2:51pm

I receive 2 polling cards for 2 previous address, while I use neither I could abuse the system and vote twice.
I'd bet there other people in similar situations, the register seems to be badly maintained and open to abuse.
Your polling card should be linked to your PPS number to avoid duplication.

looksee · 23-05-2018 3:09pm

A polling card arrived for my husband, he died three years ago. I have an idea I reported this fact, but anyway, a card came. Wouldn't it be very obvious that the issue of a death certificate should be cross-referenced with the voting register though?

I have been voting (in my innocence) in all elections and referenda since I came to Ireland over 45 years ago and was put on the register - I don't recall how, but no-one queried my status (I am a brit), if I thought anything about it I assumed marriage to an Irishman gave me that voting right. I only relatively recently - within the last few years - realised that this might not be the case. I have dealt with the good and the bad of living in Ireland for over 4 decades and I reckon I have by now earned a right to have a say.

With all the computerised data, pps numbers, census returns and online voting register etc, isn't it time the whole thing was tidied up?

oscarBravo · 23-05-2018 4:25pm

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Given the outcry about the Public Services card, it's hard to see that happen.

Exactly. But we can't (as a society) refuse to give the government information, and then bitch about the government not having our information.

No system is perfect though. Even if it was mandatory to register your address with the authorities, you'll still get some people who won't.

It depends just how serious the authorities are about requiring you to register. For example, if you don't register your change of address, you can't have post delivered to your new address, because that's how the Danish postal service knows who lives where.

dublinbuster · 23-05-2018 7:54pm

Yes campaign getting worried?
Getting in excuses for loosing early?

crossman47 · 23-05-2018 8:24pm

denismc wrote: »

I receive 2 polling cards for 2 previous address, while I use neither I could abuse the system and vote twice.
I'd bet there other people in similar situations, the register seems to be badly maintained and open to abuse.
Your polling card should be linked to your PPS number to avoid duplication.

Have you let the relevant local authority know you are no longer at those addresses?

Peregrinus · 24-05-2018 4:08am

oscarBravo wrote: »

Exactly. But we can't (as a society) refuse to give the government information, and then bitch about the government not having our information. It depends just how serious the authorities are about requiring you to register. For example, if you don't register your change of address, you can't have post delivered to your new address, because that's how the Danish postal service knows who lives where.

You mean the Danish post offices scrutinises every letter it handles to check that the adressee is registered as living at the address on the envolope and, if not, returns the letter to sender?

That must add considerable cost and delay to the postal process in Denmark!

Cookie_Monster · 24-05-2018 5:08am

Peregrinus wrote: »

You mean the Danish post offices scrutinises every letter it handles to check that the adressee is registered as living at the address on the envolope and, if not, returns the letter to sender?

That must add considerable cost and delay to the postal process in Denmark!

why would it cause delay?, every letter will be machine read these days, couple of micro seconds to confirm with the database while being done is hardly a delay

Peregrinus · 24-05-2018 5:23am

Letters are machine-read for the address, not for the name. In fact, mostly the machine is mainly trying to discern the postcode. And, even then, a large proportion have to be diverted for manual handling because the machine can't cope with the handwriting.

Plus, lots of people have nicknames, informal names, abbreviations, etc so that even if the machine can successfully read the handwriting, it may diagnose a mismatch with the register where a human wouldn't.

And, above all, what is the point of all this? If my cousin from the US is staying with me for a few weeks, what public policy is served by intercepting mail sent to him at my house and returning it to sender?

I'm sceptical that the Danes do this but, if they do, I think it's a pretty textbook example of a Bad Idea.

oscarBravo · 24-05-2018 10:42am

Peregrinus wrote: »

You mean the Danish post offices scrutinises every letter it handles to check that the adressee is registered as living at the address on the envolope and, if not, returns the letter to sender?

No, that's not what I mean. It's a much bigger picture than that. Let me try to explain.

My Danish other half occasionally gets post from her alma mater in Aarhus delivered to her here in Ireland. She has never informed the university when she changed address - whether in the US, the UK, or in Ireland - but they can still write to her, because she has notified the Danish government of her address each time she has moved.

When you move home in Denmark, you have to tell the government. It's a legal requirement. If you don't tell the government your new address, the post from your doctor will go to your old address, from where it will be returned to sender, because your name isn't printed on the mailbox anymore. You won't be able to get the electricity in your new house billed to you, because that's not your address.

If you don't register your change of address, the government won't know what property you're supposed to be paying property taxes on. The municipality won't know who to charge for water. It's the sort of society where you don't just get to decide not to bother following the rules, because it's the sort of society that's designed to only function correctly when people follow the rules.

I guess I could ask a Danish person what would happen if they didn't inform the government of a change of address, but I can speculate as to their response: blank puzzlement; why wouldn't you do that?

Every single election, every single referendum, we have the same conversation about how the electoral register is a mess. Every time, I see the same fifteen threads pop up in the week before the vote, asking about missing polling cards and deleted registrations and duplicate entries.

They don't have those conversations in Denmark. They know where people live, and they know who can and can't vote. There's a lot to be said for it.

crossman47 · 24-05-2018 11:03am

oscarBravo wrote: »

No, that's not what I mean. It's a much bigger picture than that. Let me try to explain.

My Danish other half occasionally gets post from her alma mater in Aarhus delivered to her here in Ireland. She has never informed the university when she changed address - whether in the US, the UK, or in Ireland - but they can still write to her, because she has notified the Danish government of her address each time she has moved.

When you move home in Denmark, you have to tell the government. It's a legal requirement. If you don't tell the government your new address, the post from your doctor will go to your old address, from where it will be returned to sender, because your name isn't printed on the mailbox anymore. You won't be able to get the electricity in your new house billed to you, because that's not your address.

If you don't register your change of address, the government won't know what property you're supposed to be paying property taxes on. The municipality won't know who to charge for water. It's the sort of society where you don't just get to decide not to bother following the rules, because it's the sort of society that's designed to only function correctly when people follow the rules.

I guess I could ask a Danish person what would happen if they didn't inform the government of a change of address, but I can speculate as to their response: blank puzzlement; why wouldn't you do that?

Every single election, every single referendum, we have the same conversation about how the electoral register is a mess. Every time, I see the same fifteen threads pop up in the week before the vote, asking about missing polling cards and deleted registrations and duplicate entries.

They don't have those conversations in Denmark. They know where people live, and they know who can and can't vote. There's a lot to be said for it.

It sounds like a brilliant system but it will never happen here because the civil liberties campaigners will jump up and down with rage about big brother. In general we are still in "agin the government" mode - a relic of our past.

Peregrinus · 25-05-2018 1:49am

Well, there is a real civil liberties issue. If you have a complete register of where everybody lives, linked with other government records like immigration, drivers licenses, births deaths and marriages, etc, that gives the state an extraordinary degree of insight into private lives. Want a list of all the Arab men who live in such-and-such a neighbourhood with local women who are not their wives, plus their photgraphs, and details of the cars that each of them drives? Here you go! Oh, look, this one is HIV-positive. I wonder has he told his girlfriend?

I'm not seeing any compelling argument as to why the state should be given that degree of insight into my life.

Overheal · 25-05-2018 2:06am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, there is a real civil liberties issue. If you have a complete register of where everybody lives, linked with other government records like immigration, drivers licenses, births deaths and marriages, etc, that gives the state an extraordinary degree of insight into private lives. Want a list of all the Arab men who live in such-and-such a neighbourhood with local women who are not their wives, plus their photgraphs, and details of the cars that each of them drives? Here you go! Oh, look, this one is HIV-positive. I wonder has he told his girlfriend?

I'm not seeing any compelling argument as to why the state should be given that degree of insight into my life.

But, surely the state already knows each persons immigration status, license number, passport number, and their birth certificates marriage licenses, your home address, etc?

I don’t see how that constitutes an extraordinary violation of privacy?

The government wouldn’t have access like that to medical records though.

Peregrinus · 25-05-2018 2:40am

Overheal wrote: »

But, surely the state already knows each persons immigration status, license number, passport number, and their birth certificates marriage licenses, your home address, etc?

The government doesn't know your home address. At least, not systematically. (As in, they have home addresses for lots of people - but not everyone - in various databases which are up to date in varying degrees, but there is no database of home addresses, and the other databases aren't linked.)

There is no database of Irish citizens. In general no decision is made about whether you are an Irish citizen or not unless and until you apply for a passport, and of course many citizens have no passport.

They have the other data you mention, but in unlinked databases.

Overheal wrote: »

I don’t see how that constitutes an extraordinary violation of privacy?

It's the linkage between databases, and the uses to which they are put, which create the problem. It's suggested earlier in the thread that Denmark does not conduct national censuses because the national population register makes it unnecessary. But that means (a) that the national population register is linked to lots of other databases that contain other information collected by the census beyond your name, address and date of birth, and then (b) that all this information is available to the various agencies that, in other countries, use census data for planning, decision-making, etc. And that's a lot of agencies. We're told that this data is available to postal workers, etc, so they can screen your mail for delivery.

Overheal wrote: »

The government wouldn’t have access like that to medical records though.

The HSE, a government agency, has extensive medical records on you.

Overheal · 25-05-2018 3:04am

But you're implying there is a linkage that allows them to systematically pull up a list of people who have HIV and where they live.

Peregrinus · 25-05-2018 3:25am

There isn't in Ireland, of course.

But if you see no problems with linking of information in government databases ("for administrative efficiency") then the government does have records of HIV tests and their outcomes (since the the tests are administering in public health facilities) and they can link that to where the patient lives, and who he lives with, and all the other data they have on the patient.

And don't assume that your health records are always going to be cut off in some impregnable silo. There are considerable benefits to sharing health records, so your GP can see what hospital treatment you have had, and vice versa; so drug-seekers trying to get multiple prescriptions from different doctors can be identified and frustrated; so pharmacists can verify prescriptions; so the health requirements for a driving licence or a social welfare entitlement can be applied; etc; etc. So the temptation to share and link this data is always there.

So, if you don't have a culture that says no, hang on, there are real privacy issues here and we need a strong culture that demand a justification for collecting data and a further justification for using it and a further justification for sharing it, and strict scrutiny at every step, we very quickly slide into a situation where the government knows far more about you than they have any good reason to.

Of course, governments would never abuse the power this gives them, would they? I mean, no government has ever done that, have they?

Cookie_Monster · 25-05-2018 3:55am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Of course, governments would never abuse the power this gives them, would they? I mean, no government has ever done that, have they?

can you show that Denmark (since it was given as an example of a country that manages this properly) abuses this information on a regular basis?

Peregrinus · 25-05-2018 4:09am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

can you show that Denmark (since it was given as an example of a country that manages this properly) abuses this information on a regular basis?

Well, according to OscarBravo, Denmark uses the database to intercept your mail and make sure you don't get it, for no very obvious reason that I can see. That's actually a crime in Ireland, whereas in Denmark it seem to be government policy.

But that isn't really the point. Interference with the post excepted, the Danes may at the present time be models of restraint when it comes to the abuse of government power. It would nevertheless be very, very stupid to frame policy here on the assumption that all governments will forever be models of restraint when it comes to the abuse of power. History suggests otherwise

What the Danes have is a system of comprehensive population registration which is actually quite common in continental European countries though, being Danish, they do it more thoroughly and effectively than most. Even before information technology gave governments the power to leverage such registers by linking them to other databases, it's unquestionable that they have been abused. They were extensively used, for example, by the Nazis to round up Jews, first in Germany and then in various occupied territories . It's a hell of a lot easier to round up the Jews if you have a handy list of their names and addresses, and of everyone in the family, so if somebody happens to be out when you mount your raid, you know who you're still looking for.

OK, that's a particularly extreme example. I do not suggest that either the Danish government or the Irish government would use their information in such a way. But the fact is the biggest threat to your liberty is always your own government; they have resources, information and power that nobody else has. And handing them yet more power over you therefore needs a compelling justification. It may be the right thing to do, but it's not a no-brainer.

Overheal · 25-05-2018 4:23am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, according to OscarBravo, Denmark uses the database to intercept your mail and make sure you don't get it, for no very obvious reason that I can see. That's actually a crime in Ireland, whereas in Denmark it seem to be government policy.

Makes sure that you *get* the mail, not *don't get*. As in, your mail is forwarded to your current address by the postal service.

Peregrinus · 25-05-2018 4:28am

Overheal wrote: »

Makes sure that you *get* the mail, not *don't get*. As in, your mail is forwarded to your current address by the postal service.

As in, you can only have post delivered to the address that you have registered. As in, if you happen to be somewhere else, for any reason at all, you're not allowed to receive mail there.

What problem, exactly, is this solving?

marklazarcovic · 25-05-2018 5:43am

I got taken off the register, didn't move house, didn't ask to come off,have voted in last election.. haven't got polling card, checked was I on the live register and I'm gone,wtf.. I've been delivering polling cards for people who are long dead and long moved away for this election (postie) yet I'm taken off the register when I actively vote ffs.

Overheal · 25-05-2018 8:48am

Peregrinus wrote: »

As in, you can only have post delivered to the address that you have registered. As in, if you happen to be somewhere else, for any reason at all, you're not allowed to receive mail there.

What problem, exactly, is this solving?

I would have to imagine they have a protocol for a temporary mailing address, it’s too simple a “what if” to not have been thought of. Neither you nor I really has any experience with their system.

Overheal · 25-05-2018 8:49am

marklazarcovic wrote: »

I got taken off the register, didn't move house, didn't ask to come off,have voted in last election.. haven't got polling card, checked was I on the live register and I'm gone,wtf.. I've been delivering polling cards for people who are long dead and long moved away for this election (postie) yet I'm taken off the register when I actively vote ffs.

Must not have voted how They wanted you to vote.

carq · 25-05-2018 9:18am

i am on the register 3 times !
I am on 2 different addresses in the current town where i live ( Applied for change of address - they never removed the old address) and also my home address down the country where i grew up ( A polling card arrived down last week)

the whole thing is open for mass manipulation.
Whoever is managing the register is not up to scratch.

Bob24 · 25-05-2018 9:28am

It is a separate topic from this particular referendum, but our voting system is a mess in many aspects and needs an overhaul.

I personal know of non Irish/British citizens who have received polling cards for Dail elections before, as well as British ones who have received them for referendums, so the register is clearly filled with inaccuracies about who is allowed to vote and for which type of elections - which is not acceptable.

Identification procedures on the day are also very lax compared to other countries, and their is very poor control of who puts what in the ballot box. IMO all the boxes should be transparent so that anyone can check what’s happening in them. And the action of checking someone’s identity, marking them has having voted on the register, and their actually putting their ballot in the box should all happen at the same time with strict supervision.

Billgirlylegs · 25-05-2018 9:28am

Peregrinus wrote: »

As in, you can only have post delivered to the address that you have registered. As in, if you happen to be somewhere else, for any reason at all, you're not allowed to receive mail there.

What problem, exactly, is this solving?

I think(may be wrong) that the system is that Mr Peregrinus address is 1 Main street, Hicksville on the database. Anyone dealing officially with Mr Peregrinus accesses the database, and uses the "official" address, on their correspondence/envelope.

Presumably some envelopes will be issued that don't carry the "official" address.
Whether these are redirected by the post office is a different question.

As was seen earlier in the PSC shambles, Irish overlords don't seem to understand what information they have and don't have, or how they can or can't use it.
Over the next few weeks watch the panic about GDPR, and then the backpeddling to minimize the importance and impact.

Peregrinus · 25-05-2018 9:28am

carq wrote: »

i am on the register 3 times !
I am on 2 different addresses in the current town where i live ( Applied for change of address - they never removed the old address) and also my home address down the country where i grew up ( A polling card arrived down last week)

the whole thing is open for mass manipulation.
Whoever is managing the register is not up to scratch.

It's perfectly legitimate to be on the register more than once, if you have more than one residence. (What is not permitted, of course, is voting more than once.)

The register is compiled by local authorities. It's a fairly clunky process, and it has to say has become clunkier since the abolition of domestic rates, which however unpleasant they may have been in other respects did at least give people a financial incentive to keep the local authority informed about house moves.

I don't think its true to say that the "whole thing is open for mass manipulation". Precisely because the maintenance of the register is decentralised and it largely relies on individualised notifications, mass manipulation would be quite difficult. (And perhaps this is part of the reason why the system was designed in this way.) Individual manipulation, granted, is absurdly easy. But it would be difficult to co-ordinate enough individual manipulations on a scale large enough actually to affect the outcome of an election, and not be noticed doing so; it would require a very large conspiracy.

blanch152 · 25-05-2018 9:42am

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's perfectly legitimate to be on the register more than once, if you have more than one residence. (What is not permitted, of course, is voting more than once.)

The register is compiled by local authorities. It's a fairly clunky process, and it has to say has become clunkier since the abolition of domestic rates, which however unpleasant they may have been in other respects did at least give people a financial incentive to keep the local authority informed about house moves.

I don't think its true to say that the "whole thing is open for mass manipulation". Precisely because the maintenance of the register is decentralised and it largely relies on individualised notifications, mass manipulation would be quite difficult. (And perhaps this is part of the reason why the system was designed in this way.) Individual manipulation, granted, is absurdly easy. But it would be difficult to co-ordinate enough individual manipulations on a scale large enough actually to affect the outcome of an election, and not be noticed doing so; it would require a very large conspiracy.

It shouldn't affect referenda where there is generally a wide margin, but in tight elections there can be a difference, as this example from Northern Ireland which operates a similar system to use demonstrates:

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/voting-fraud-in-northern-ireland-has-been-going-on-for-years-says-former-electoral-office-chief-35827669.html

Then there was the time that Dick Spring lost a seat or won a seat by 4 votes in Kerry. Wouldn't have taken much personation to swing that election.

Owryan · 25-05-2018 9:53am

I got 3 polling cards, again. My current address, my parents address and my previous address.

Haven't lived in my parents house for 15 years, both dead house sold. Moved from previous address 2 years ago.

Am in the same constituency. Strange thing is, I updated the register in the local council offices, the woman even checked to make sure I was no longer registered at the other addresses, yet somehow I was put back on it.

Neighbours daughter came home to vote, has been living in England the last 20 years and yet is still on the register, proud of it she is.

Peregrinus · 25-05-2018 9:54am

blanch152 wrote: »

It shouldn't affect referenda where there is generally a wide margin, but in tight elections there can be a difference, as this example from Northern Ireland which operates a similar system to use demonstrates:

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/voting-fraud-in-northern-ireland-has-been-going-on-for-years-says-former-electoral-office-chief-35827669.html

Then there was the time that Dick Spring lost a seat or won a seat by 4 votes in Kerry. Wouldn't have taken much personation to swing that election.

Perhaps it was swung by personation!

Personation can happen even if the register is 100% correct, and indeed personation is a much easier way to "steal" a vote that you are not entitled to than monkeying with the register, which requires considerable forward planning.

I agree that the system we have for compiling the register is nineteenth century, and reflects a concept of a vote as something graciously granted to you by your lords and masters rather than a fundamental right which the law must respect, and is generally not fit for purpose these days. However I'm sceptical that the deficiencies of the system actually open up much scope for systematic rigging of elections on any material scale. We need a better system, but to design one imagining that the challenge is to prevent elections being stolen is to have a probably non-existent tail wagging a fairly important dog. The first thing a good electoral register has to do is to ensure that everyone who is entitled to a vote can get one without undue difficulty, complex processes or other barriers, and can exercise it likewise. To my mind if the system denies a vote to someone who should have one, that's probably a more serious failing that permitting a vote by someone who, actually, shouldn't be able to vote.

EdgeCase · 25-05-2018 9:54am

I do think the register here is too chaotic. At the very least, having one national voter database, with unique identifiers : PPSN, would remove any issue of duplicate entries.

What we seem to have at the moment is separate databases at every local authority.

It works and fraud is low but that’s only because the population here generally does act in good faith when it comes to things like this and can be trusted.

A lot of the continental systems are very extreme when it comes to gathering endless data. I found Belgium felt like some kind of police state at times. The police check that your name is correctly displayed on your doorbell ?!

Peregrinus · 25-05-2018 9:58am

EdgeCase wrote: »

I do think the register here is too chaotic. At the very least, having one national voter database, with unique identifiers : PPSN, would remove any issue of duplicate entries.

As pointed out, duplicate entries are sometimes legit.

And PPSN won't work as a unique identifier; people who do not have PPSNs may be entitled to vote.

EdgeCase · 25-05-2018 10:04am

I’m trying to figure out who would have rights to vote here and no PPSN?

You’ve got a PPSN automatically if you’re born here or naturalized Irish. If you’re older and have never worked, never claimed any PRSI welfare service, never attended an educational institution in modern times etc perhaps.

Or, EU citizens or returning older Irish (predating PPSN) who’ve never worked or claimed any social service here and vote in relevant European and local elections?

Again, fairly small group and could be registered against a unique identifier.

Peregrinus · 25-05-2018 10:36am

There's not a huge number of people without a PPSN, but there are several diverse groups who won't have one. Everyone entering the register today on turning 18 will have a PPSN if they were born in Ireland, but if they were born abroad they may not. Of people already on the register there'll be a slew who don't have PPSNs; most of these will be older women not working outside the home. And of course there'll be non-citizens on the register (for EU/local government elections) who have come to Ireland for purposes other than work (e.g. for study, or as a dependent of someone else); they may not have PPSNs.

But I question the role for a unique identifier, given that it may be perfectly legit to be on the register more than once. If you have EdgeCase registered at his stylish penthouse apartment in Ballsbridge, and also at his country seat, Castle EdgeCase, in the rolling Tipperary countryside, it's not necesessary to know whether these two EdgeCases are the same or not.

(It's necessary to establish that when he presents himself to vote, but not when he registers.)

oscarBravo · 25-05-2018 10:45am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, according to OscarBravo, Denmark uses the database to intercept your mail and make sure you don't get it, for no very obvious reason that I can see. That's actually a crime in Ireland, whereas in Denmark it seem to be government policy.

I misspoke when typing my original post in haste, and my clarification doesn't seem to have helped. The government doesn't intercept your post, but there just isn't a mechanism other than the single official one for changing your address. I'm pretty sure you can get your post temporarily redirected; it just needs to be care-of whoever is recorded as living there.

The whole post thing is a complete red herring anyway. The wider point is that the ability of a government to efficiently deliver services to its population is proportional to the reliability of that government's information about that population. If we take the attitude that the less the government knows about us, the better, that's fine - as long as we're accepting that a part of the price we're paying for that attitude is a reduction in the standard of the services we receive in return.

Our electoral register is a shambolic mess, because there's no real system for maintaining it; it's more of a collection of habits and traditions, with a half-hearted nod towards electoral law. It's not going to get fixed, because we don't want it fixed. We just want to complain about it.

Minister · 25-05-2018 11:15am

looksee wrote: »

With all the computerised data, pps numbers, census returns and online voting register etc, isn't it time the whole thing was tidied up?

Will not happen. Too much of l lack of political will.

You can bet your bottom dollar there will be be double voting etc......

daheff · 25-05-2018 11:21am

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The electoral register is never going to be 100% accurate, simply because the people maintaining it aren't omniscient and are relying on a.) people being honest in stating who is resident at a certain address when they're periodically updating it and b.) people who move notifying them of that fact.

And incompetent. I've moved house in the last year. I've sent in a properly filled out & stamped form (RFA3) for the address change only to be told that they dont update addresses within the same polling area for edited register -despite the RFA 3 stating

RFA3 Note 1 wrote:

The purpose of this form is to facilitate voters who are on the register of
electors but have moved to a new address, either within the same
registration area or to a new registration area, and wish to be included in the
supplement to the register of electors so that they can vote at elections or
referendums, as appropriate, on the basis of their new residency.

So now I have no polling card nor do I have ID with the old address on it (where I'm allegedly registered).

daheff · 25-05-2018 11:26am

marklazarcovic wrote: »

I got taken off the register, didn't move house, didn't ask to come off,have voted in last election.. haven't got polling card, checked was I on the live register and I'm gone,wtf.. I've been delivering polling cards for people who are long dead and long moved away for this election (postie) yet I'm taken off the register when I actively vote ffs.

You aren't voting the right way....they know this and have decided to vote on your behalf so you get it right :P

Here we go · 25-05-2018 11:31am

I believe this was discussed on pat Kenny on newstalk with I believe the referendum commissioner his reply was it was an issue and did happen pointing out the Twitter # home to vote trending but that the numbers where minimal and would not be snuff to effect the vote of course if it passes or fails by 1/10k votes there could be reason to say it did effect the result

Peregrinus · 25-05-2018 11:41am

oscarBravo wrote: »

I misspoke when typing my original post in haste, and my clarification doesn't seem to have helped. The government doesn't intercept your post, but there just isn't a mechanism other than the single official one for changing your address. I'm pretty sure you can get your post temporarily redirected; it just needs to be care-of whoever is recorded as living there.

The whole post thing is a complete red herring anyway. The wider point is that the ability of a government to efficiently deliver services to its population is proportional to the reliability of that government's information about that population. If we take the attitude that the less the government knows about us, the better, that's fine - as long as we're accepting that a part of the price we're paying for that attitude is a reduction in the standard of the services we receive in return.

Our electoral register is a shambolic mess, because there's no real system for maintaining it; it's more of a collection of habits and traditions, with a half-hearted nod towards electoral law. It's not going to get fixed, because we don't want it fixed. We just want to complain about it.

We're perhaps getting unduly bogged down in the minutiae of the Danish postal system. As far as I'm concerned you deliver a letter to the address on the envelope, unless there's a redirection instruction, and I see no good reason for complicating this obvious and simple arrangement by linking it to other databases. But this is a detail.

You're quite right to say that high quality data on the citizens improves the delivery of public services, but there is a trade-off in terms of privacy and security, and it's not a trivial trade-off. We need first of all to decide on what the proper balance between the two is, and secondly to establish robust and effective mechanisms for ensuring that that balance is maintained. It's premature to talk of improving the electoral register until we've had a national discussion about those issues, and that's going to take some time.

Sticking with the electoral register for a moment, there's a difference between changing the system to as to minimise opportunities for fraudulent or irregular voting, on the one hand, and changing the system so as to ensure that entitled voters do get to vote. You don't have to think too hard to realise that measures designed to support one objective can tend to undermine the other, and vice versa, so you need to decide which is your priority. Which in turn means you need to think about which, currently, is the bigger problem? On the one hand we have plently of anecdotal evidence about people who are entitled to vote but can't, either because the procedures are inadequate, or because they didn't know about the procedures, or because the procedure just failed to work. On the other hand, we have plently of anecdotal evidence about peole who aren't entitled to vote, but can (and in some cases do). But, because the evidence on both sides is anecdotal, we have no way of knowing how widespread either problem really is, or which occurs the more frequently.

Tl;dr: I think we need to do a good deal of work to get a handle on what our problems are withe regard to electoral registration before we start to construct solutions to those problems.

Bob24 · 25-05-2018 11:52am

Owryan wrote: »

I got 3 polling cards, again. My current address, my parents address and my previous address.

Haven't lived in my parents house for 15 years, both dead house sold. Moved from previous address 2 years ago.

Am in the same constituency. Strange thing is, I updated the register in the local council offices, the woman even checked to make sure I was no longer registered at the other addresses, yet somehow I was put back on it.

Neighbours daughter came home to vote, has been living in England the last 20 years and yet is still on the register, proud of it she is.

I assume it means they if you were to drive around you could vote 3 times.

It is really silly that we don’t have a process to ensure someone is only able to vote at one polling station.

Sounds like it should be elections 101 type of stuff ... if that can’t even be guaranteed how can we fully trust the integrity of any vote in this country?

Peregrinus · 25-05-2018 11:55am

Bob24 wrote: »

I assume it means they if you were to drive around you could vote 3 times.

It is really silly that we don’t have a process to ensure someone is only able to vote at one polling station.

Sounds like it should be elections 101 type of stuff ... if that can’t even be guaranteed how can we fully trust the integrity of any vote in this country?

This is a feature, not a bug. If you're a student, for example, how are you expected to predict whether elections will be held during term, when you are in college, or during vacations, when you are at home? You want to be registered in both constituencies, and that's allowed.

EdgeCase · 25-05-2018 12:00pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I misspoke when typing my original post in haste, and my clarification doesn't seem to have helped. The government doesn't intercept your post, but there just isn't a mechanism other than the single official one for changing your address. I'm pretty sure you can get your post temporarily redirected; it just needs to be care-of whoever is recorded as living there.

The whole post thing is a complete red herring anyway. The wider point is that the ability of a government to efficiently deliver services to its population is proportional to the reliability of that government's information about that population. If we take the attitude that the less the government knows about us, the better, that's fine - as long as we're accepting that a part of the price we're paying for that attitude is a reduction in the standard of the services we receive in return.

Our electoral register is a shambolic mess, because there's no real system for maintaining it; it's more of a collection of habits and traditions, with a half-hearted nod towards electoral law. It's not going to get fixed, because we don't want it fixed. We just want to complain about it.

Maybe we do want it fixed? Has anyone ever asked?...

There’s an assumption that it somehow shouldn’t be fixed because it would be controversial to fix it but I think sometimes people can just listen to very extreme and paranoid views about this kind of thing.

I’m not convinced the Irish general public is quite as illogical and put off by efficient management of systems as some people would have you think.

In fact, I find Irish people are quite impressed with smooth running state services and generally get annoyed with unaccountable, illogical bureaucracy eg aspects of the health services immediately spring to mind.

Many of the more modern and better designed Irish state services are excellent and a breeze to use. It’s just the electoral register is something that’s a bit of a relic from a bygone age of quills and stamps.

You can also create systems that are logical, transparent and safe without draconian measures.

thelad95 · 25-05-2018 12:02pm

Student here. I know people who will be voting at four different addresses with four different polling cards. I myself have registered at my current address and got a text from a previous landlord asking if I wanted my polling card forwarded on too my current address. Same county council.

When updating my address on the register, I was informed that the register would automatically be edited by them but of course this never happened.

This is electoral fraud and will happen all over the country today exactly the same way it did with the marriage referendum.

The whole system should be linked to PPSN and forget current addresses.

EdgeCase · 25-05-2018 12:03pm

If you know someone doing that would you please report them to the Gardai. It’s effectively someone who’s undermining the democratic process and they fully deserve to be investigated and charged if necessary.

Electoral Register could damage referendum integrity

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