The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2018 09:16AM

cournioni wrote: »

Are you for a lawless society?

Nope, and nothing I have ever written would suggest I am.

cournioni wrote: »

Freedom and choice of the unborn is taken away with what is currently being proposed.

The issue is that at 10-16 weeks gestation there is no coherent basis being offered for why such concepts are even being applied in the first place, let alone as you imagine it that they are being "taken away".

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 09:16AM

cournioni wrote: »

Are you for a lawless society? Freedom and choice of the unborn is taken away with what is currently being proposed.

It is what is proposed with a sound logical basis for doing so.

Ave Sodalis · 23-05-2018 09:17AM

cournioni wrote: »

Are you for a lawless society? Freedom and choice of the unborn is taken away with what is currently being proposed.

Are any of the other countries with abortion considered a lawless society?

Billy86 · 23-05-2018 09:17AM

gmisk wrote: »

It isnt illegal at all.
I know people who have had it done in Dublin.

I just googled it there and yeah, if I had a tattoo and wasn't in work today I could be getting it removed before lunchtime today if I wanted (and found somewhere not booked out). I'm really struggling to get what he meant by his post now?

freshpopcorn · 23-05-2018 09:18AM

STB. wrote: »

So an advertisment appeared in the Wexford People today says in big capitals
ABORTION CLINIC OPENING WEXFORD
If you dont want this to happen vote NO to abortion and demand a better answer for mothers and babies.

I'll take the swearing out of the post but can the Together for Yes campaign guarantee this won't happen?

pleas advice · 23-05-2018 09:18AM

seamus wrote: »

That's a generous way of describing it. Her statement was that the majority of abortions in the UK were carried out on the mental health grounds, and this is evidence that it is being abused; i.e. that women are just making stuff up to get abortions.

It is being abused through, or not being used as intended. The situation amounts to de facto abortion on request. How else would the thousands every year from Ireland avail of it?

jjmcclure · 23-05-2018 09:18AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Abortion for lifestyle reasons is not healthcare. Fact

ohmiamy · 23-05-2018 09:19AM

Hi guys, first time poster here. I've been reading the 8th amendment threads for the past few weeks, trying to gague how the vote may go. Reading some of the comments from the no side has made me absolutely despair to be a young woman in Ireland today. The whole debate is an incredibly emotive issue for me, as I was raped when I was in my 2nd year of college. I became pregnant as a result. I was too far along to take abortion pills and didn't have enough money to travel for an abortion. So I was forced to continue the pregnancy. Being pregnant was the worst time of my life, and everyday I wished that something would go wrong and the baby would die. Or I would die. I didn't really care either way. Childbirth was a horrendously painful experience that has scarred my body for the rest of my life. Recently, no campaigners called to my door and I told them my story. They said that they were sorry that I was raped but that the baby had been an innocent victim and wasn't I delighted now to have a beautiful little girl. They never once considered the actual victim standing in front of them, the woman who had been punished for being attacked. No campaigners have absolutely no answer for people like me. Instead we get to watch people like Fidelma Healy-Eames say that there should be legislation for cases of rape and FFA but refuses to answer whether she would actually vote for that. And we all know that she wouldn't! I would not wish my experience on my worst enemy and I am hoping with every bone in my body that we have a yes vote when the result comes in. A woman should have a right to make the right decision for her, without interference from people who don't give a damn about what happens to her. For every woman that I know, and the women that I don't, for my friends and their future daughters, for myself and my daughter, repeal the 8th!!

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 09:19AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'll take the swearing out of the post but can the Together for Yes campaign guarantee this won't happen?

Is there anything to suggest that is happening apart from scaremongering from the No side?

SusieBlue · 23-05-2018 09:20AM

cournioni wrote: »

My solution is to avoid killing a healthy living being if at all possible, to give it the chance at life.

Why should the unborn baby pay the price (in this case where we are talking about career and economic reasons) with its life just because the woman decided against it?

Yeah, why should the person who has to gestate the pregnancy, go through childbirth, and rear the child for 18+ years have any say in the matter, ridiculous carry on. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

munsterlegend · 23-05-2018 09:20AM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Clearly this is a Yes vote for you then?

A No Vote gets you nothing you want as the rape/incest scenario stays exactly as is, probably for another generation.
A Yes Vote handles these issues but unfortunately goes further than you want however you will have the opportunity to shape the legislation on a continual on-going basis in discussion with your TDs.

It may not be a palatable decision for you, but it's a relatively clear cut one?

Not necessarily. An amendment could be put into the constitution allowing for abortion in certain limited circumstances such as rape etc. I don't think this will be necessary as I think Yes will win in the 60-40 range and maybe higher.

PARlance · 23-05-2018 09:21AM

Very odd video released by Sherlock last night, she claims she didn't pull out of the debate but offers no reason why she didn't take part.

TheJournal.ie: Cora Sherlock releases video and insists she did not 'pull out' of RTÉ Prime Time debate.
http://www.thejournal.ie/cora-sherlock-prime-time-4029067-May2018/

"But in a video published last night by TheLiberal.ie, Sherlock denied that she had “pulled out” of the debate.

Sherlock did not explain her absence from the debate but asked her supporters not to “worry about headlines”.

SusieBlue · 23-05-2018 09:22AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Abortion for lifestyle reasons is not healthcare. Fact

Lifestyle reasons?
Why are you dismissing and underestimating the effect an unplanned child can have on a persons life?
And if you view the unexpected arrival of another mouth to feed with such insignificance, why aren't you queuing up to adopt some of the 6k+ kids in foster care?
Shouldn't be a bother to you. Should fit right in with your lifestyle.

Ave Sodalis · 23-05-2018 09:23AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Not necessarily. An amendment could be put into the constitution allowing for abortion in certain limited circumstances such as rape etc. I don't think this will be necessary as I think Yes will win in the 60-40 range and maybe higher.

No it can't.

There are so many different and "valid" scenarios. Rape and FFA does not cover them all. The constitution is not the place for them and will only result in more difficult to fix problems arising down the road. Patching the problem doesn't make it go away.

SusieBlue · 23-05-2018 09:24AM

ohmiamy wrote: »

Hi guys, first time poster here. I've been reading the 8th amendment threads for the past few weeks, trying to gague how the vote may go. Reading some of the comments from the no side has made me absolutely despair to be a young woman in Ireland today. The whole debate is an incredibly emotive issue for me, as I was raped when I was in my 2nd year of college. I became pregnant as a result. I was too far along to take abortion pills and didn't have enough money to travel for an abortion. So I was forced to continue the pregnancy. Being pregnant was the worst time of my life, and everyday I wished that something would go wrong and the baby would die. Or I would die. I didn't really care either way. Childbirth was a horrendously painful experience that has scarred my body for the rest of my life. Recently, no campaigners called to my door and I told them my story. They said that they were sorry that I was raped but that the baby had been an innocent victim and wasn't I delighted now to have a beautiful little girl. They never once considered the actual victim standing in front of them, the woman who had been punished for being attacked. No campaigners have absolutely no answer for people like me. Instead we get to watch people like Fidelma Healy-Eames say that there should be legislation for cases of rape and FFA but refuses to answer whether she would actually vote for that. And we all know that she wouldn't! I would not wish my experience on my worst enemy and I am hoping with every bone in my body that we have a yes vote when the result comes in. A woman should have a right to make the right decision for her, without interference from people who don't give a damn about what happens to her. For every woman that I know, and the women that I don't, for my friends and their future daughters, for myself and my daughter, repeal the 8th!!

Sorry to hear you went through this, you sound like a really strong woman.
Fingers crossed we get the correct result this weekend.
All the best for the future x

jjmcclure · 23-05-2018 09:25AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Lifestyle reasons?
Why are you dismissing and underestimating the effect an unplanned child can have on a persons life?
And if you view the unexpected arrival of another mouth to feed with such insignificance, why aren't you queuing up to adopt some of the 6k+ kids in foster care?
Shouldn't be a bother to you. Should fit right in with your lifestyle.

My sister adopted 3 Irish kids, all from the same mother.

Someone choosing to terminate a healthy pregnancy due to "I want to travel the world", or "I can't afford the childcare" is not a valid argument. It is simply a selfish act.

ArmaniJeanss · 23-05-2018 09:25AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

I am voting for the status quo to remain. I voted for gay marriage and divorce but I would not equate the issues here in any way to those. They/we are adults making free choices about ourselves. Here there is a little foetus/unborn baby who at 12 weeks has a very high percentage chance of making it into the world yet for some reason some don't believe they are worthy of any protection. Oh let's disregard England and Scotland our closest cultural neighbours where abortion has sky rocketed since introduced as that doesn't suit the narrative. Simon Harris was happy to talk about Portugal last night but when Scotland abortion rates were mentioned he completely ignored it.

The almost derelict industrial cities and sink estates of the north of England don't really have a huge lot in common with us culturally.

Could even argue that in some aspects of culture we are closer to the a la carte Catholic family-centred countries of Italy, Portugal, Spain etc.

End result (re likely abortion figures) would probably be somewhere in the middle.

Overheal · 23-05-2018 09:25AM

pleas advice wrote: »

It is being abused through, or not being used as intended. The situation amounts to de facto abortion on request. How else would the thousands every year from Ireland avail of it?

Here’s the thing about that: the No side isn’t coming up with any workable proposal that would allow “hard case” abortions while disallowing “abortions on demand.”

However I don’t know if that is honestly a case of a lack of imagination or voluntary silence: given that, if the No side proposed post-repeal legislation that was workable, that would restrict abortions for “changed my mind, wrong hair color etc” reasons, it would utterly defeat the point of the campaign to keep the 8th.

So, I’m genuinely not sure if people already have ideas for legislation they’d be happy with, assuming the 8th gets repealed.

munsterlegend · 23-05-2018 09:25AM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

No it can't.

There are so many different and "valid" scenarios. Rape and FFA does not cover them all. The constitution is not the place for them and will only result in more difficult to fix problems arising down the road. Patching the problem doesn't make it go away.

Well it can as you have accepted but you don't believe it will solve the issue.

Billy86 · 23-05-2018 09:26AM

PARlance wrote: »

Very odd video released by Sherlock last night, she claims she didn't pull out of the debate but offers no reason why she didn't take part.

TheJournal.ie: Cora Sherlock releases video and insists she did not 'pull out' of RTÉ Prime Time debate.
http://www.thejournal.ie/cora-sherlock-prime-time-4029067-May2018/

"But in a video published last night by TheLiberal.ie, Sherlock denied that she had “pulled out” of the debate.

Sherlock did not explain her absence from the debate but asked her supporters not to “worry about headlines”.

Not odd, fully expected from this "new right" movement. Shout loud, run away when challenged, play the victim card, shout loud when left alone again about being ignored, ignore all facts and make them out as the enemy so you attract people easily duped solely by emotion, ignore all facts because your base don't care about them, shout loud, run away when challenged, play the victim card...

On and on and on. All that Cambridge analytica work for Trump and brexit gave a very clear roadmap for how to use this nonsense, and this is the larger concern beyond this referendum that has been brought to light in recent months.

Greysquirel09 · 23-05-2018 09:26AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Not necessarily. An amendment could be put into the constitution allowing for abortion in certain limited circumstances such as rape etc. I don't think this will be necessary as I think Yes will win in the 60-40 range and maybe higher.

I honestly think the polling is way off. I think a lot of No voters don't engage in these online discussions and just save it for the polling booth. I've been surprised myself with friends and family as to how they will vote when you might assume they'd go one way or t'other. So divisive.

Cantona's Collars · 23-05-2018 09:27AM

PARlance wrote: »

Very odd video released by Sherlock last night, she claims she didn't pull out of the debate but offers no reason why she didn't take part.

TheJournal.ie: Cora Sherlock releases video and insists she did not 'pull out' of RTÉ Prime Time debate.
http://www.thejournal.ie/cora-sherlock-prime-time-4029067-May2018/

"But in a video published last night by TheLiberal.ie, Sherlock denied that she had “pulled out” of the debate.

Sherlock did not explain her absence from the debate but asked her supporters not to “worry about headlines”.

Maybe she's still trying to come up with an answer to the question if she'd force a 12 year old rape victim to go full term and give birth or simply let her go to the UK for an abortion.

NuMarvel · 23-05-2018 09:27AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'll take the swearing out of the post but can the Together for Yes campaign guarantee this won't happen?

The FAQ in the first post explains why it's not likely to happen. And I'm going to copy a post about this from another thread to expand on it a bit more:

NuMarvel wrote: »

Even if there were 10,000 abortions a year, double the current estimated number, there still wouldn't be sufficient business to open up dedicated abortion clinics. The majority of abortions will be via the primary care system, and will probably happen at home if we follow the same practice as Scotland.

In fact Scotland is a good comparator. It has a slightly larger population that use, in 2016 had 12,000 abortions, and yet there is no dedicated private clinics in Scotland. The closest they have is one BPAS clinic in the entire country. But BPAS isn't a for profit business, it's a not-for-profit charity, and is mainly funded by the NHS, i.e. the public health system.

pleas advice · 23-05-2018 09:28AM

https://expectingscience.com/2015/08/26/lies-damned-lies-and-miscarriage-statistics/

After 14 weeks it's over 99% according to this

munsterlegend wrote: »

Have we any idea of the percentages of 12 weeks old unborn in the womb that make it to birth? Obviously it would be a guess but my understanding is that at that time most people tell close ones they are actually pregnant.

freshpopcorn · 23-05-2018 09:28AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Is there anything to suggest that is happening apart from scaremongering from the No side?

The thing is honestly don't know. I was kind of always under the impression that if abortion was legal. Abortion clinic such as Marie Stopes were a thing in the country.

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 09:29AM

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

I honestly think the polling is way off. I think a lot of No voters don't engage in these online discussions and just save it for the polling booth. I've been surprised myself with friends and family as to how they will vote when you might assume they'd go one way or t'other. So divisive.

the polling is not done based on online discussions.

....... · 23-05-2018 09:30AM

This post has been deleted.

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 09:30AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

The thing is honestly don't know. I was kind of always under the impression that if abortion was legal. Abortion clinic such as Marie Stopes were a thing in the country.

Why? There might be sufficient demand for one in Dublin. Might. and so what if there is?

SusieBlue · 23-05-2018 09:31AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

My sister adopted 3 Irish kids, all from the same mother.

Someone choosing to terminate a healthy pregnancy due to "I want to travel the world", or "I can't afford the childcare" is not a valid argument. It is simply a selfish act.

I would argue that its considerably more selfish to bring a child you cannot afford to feed into the world, or a child born into neglect/poverty/addiction issues/a house with domestic violence/mental health issues.

All of the above would be classed by you as "lifestyle reasons".

Children should be loved and adored and nurtured and cherished and I see no benefit in forcing an unwilling woman to have a child she does not want just to keep YOU happy.

Being born at all costs is seen as a victory by you, but you don't give a cr*p about what kind of lives these kids are born into.
It certainly isn't in the best interests of children. Not very pro-life of you.

freshpopcorn · 23-05-2018 09:31AM

Thanks NuMarvel for sharing that!
It would be very unlikely if Ireland went down that road so!

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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