The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

FrancieBrady · 22-05-2018 04:14PM

DOS wrote: »

It could.

Make sure you point that out to people on your 'valiant' canvass.

circadian · 22-05-2018 04:14PM

Wowzer. Just dropped into the thread to see conspiracy theories about Boards, journal.ie and biased fact checking.

Someone asked earlier about peak crazy. I don't even think we're halfway there yet. Tomorrow I'm sure we'll see the hysterics and misinformation go into overdrive.

gctest50 · 22-05-2018 04:14PM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Your argument is nonsense.

A petri dish full of embryos is not a growing human life. Please consider a better argument before posting again.

could be :

The embryos are left to grow for 3-5 days. At this point, the embryos are about 8 cells large. The healthiest are selected to implant in the womb.

https://www.zmescience.com/medicine/how-in-vitro-fertilization-works/

jjmcclure · 22-05-2018 04:15PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not true.

And that is entirely untrue.

Available up to 6 month on "unspecified mental health grounds" = unrestricted abortion up to 6 months.

pleas advice · 22-05-2018 04:16PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That could apply to a doctor saving the life of a woman in a difficult pregnancy...yeh?

It could and it should and it does, and the 8th allows it, so .

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 22-05-2018 04:16PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Correct, it is several growing human lives (if you buy an embryo being a human life).

But we're not being asked to vote to allow abortion for cases where the mother's life is in danger. We're being asked to vote to allow abortions that will include healthy babies being carried by healthy women who are in no danger at all.

There needs to be more clarity around the eighth amendment and what medical staff can do to treat women whose health is in danger. Waiting until they are at death's door before doctors can intervene is not satisfactory. But that doesn't require legislating for abortion for all babies up to twelve weeks.

Calina · 22-05-2018 04:17PM

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

There are a lot of people who have concerns about unlimited abortions up to 12 weeks and are unwillingly voting Yes because they feel it's better than leaving the status quo unchanged. But surely it would be better to vote No and then demand that the Government give this more thought and come up with a better proposal.

It is better to vote yes and then demand the better proposal which could be enacted by the Dail.

SusieBlue · 22-05-2018 04:17PM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Available up to 6 month on "unspecified mental health grounds" = unrestricted abortion up to 6 months.

This is already the case with POLDPA. Women can currently do this, if there is a risk of suicide.
Nice underhanded sly dig at mental health issues though, I'll give you that much.

uptherebels · 22-05-2018 04:17PM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Your argument is nonsense.

A petri dish full of embryos is not a growing human life. Please consider a better argument before posting again.

No it's just you don't want to answer as we all know you would pick the kid and so scuttle your own arguement

January · 22-05-2018 04:17PM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Available up to 6 month on "unspecified mental health grounds" = unrestricted abortion up to 6 months.

Available up to viability on grounds of 'serious risk to the health or life of the mother' = not unrestricted abortion up to 6 months.

More lies.

Dressing gown · 22-05-2018 04:17PM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Available up to 6 month on "unspecified mental health grounds" = unrestricted abortion up to 6 months.

Yes and black is also white

spookwoman · 22-05-2018 04:18PM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Available up to 6 month on "unspecified mental health grounds" = unrestricted abortion up to 6 months.

"unspecified mental health grounds" is different to what you posted a few mins ago. Don't change your words because you got caught out on a lie

jjmcclure wrote: »

......
The current proposals will lead to unrestricted abortion in Ireland. This is simply wrong. The Pro-Choice Zealots would state that a woman should be able to terminate up to 6 months, many of them up to 9 months!, for no reason other than the pregnancy being an inconvenience. I think this view is "wrong".

bruschi · 22-05-2018 04:18PM

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

There are a lot of people who have concerns about unlimited abortions up to 12 weeks and are unwillingly voting Yes because they feel it's better than leaving the status quo unchanged. But surely it would be better to vote No and then demand that the Government give this more thought and come up with a better proposal.

you are entirely unclear and wrong in your thoughts if you think we are voting on abortion up to 12 weeks and that we should lobby the government for something different.

We are voting to repeal the 8th amendment, specifically the note which states that the unborn has equal rights to its mother.

Until this is repealed, then no 12 weeks or any other legislation can go through. So instead of voting no, it should be vote yes and then lobby the government to put forward an alternative legislation.

People can vote whatever way they want, but voting no and then asking them for a different proposal is just utterly idiotic and has no understanding at all of the current situation.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 22-05-2018 04:18PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

And in the mean time, all those hard cases continue to be denied just because of people's "concerns".

How valiant, continue to deny the hard cases because what's proposed doesn't suit you.

It would absolutely not be better to vote No and demand that the Government give this more thought, there can't be more thought given as the 8th would have to be removed for more leeway to be brought in, the hard cases would continue to suffer unless the 8th is gone, once the 8th is gone, legislation can then be lobbied for.

Nobody's denying the hard cases. But that has to be balanced against the many healthy babies that will be aborted if the government bring in their proposed legislation.

January · 22-05-2018 04:18PM

pleas advice wrote: »

It could and it should and it does, and the 8th allows it, so .

Except for when you're suicidal and seek an abortion... then they'll hold you against your will in a mental health facility.

FrancieBrady · 22-05-2018 04:19PM

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

But we're not being asked to vote to allow abortion for cases where the mother's life is in danger. We're being asked to vote to allow abortions that will include healthy babies being carried by healthy women who are in no danger at all.

There needs to be more clarity around the eighth amendment and what medical staff can do to treat women whose health is in danger. Waiting until they are at death's door before doctors can intervene is not satisfactory. But that doesn't require legislating for abortion for all babies up to twelve weeks.

You already 'allow' women to have abortions. They happen in England and the rest of Europe though.

circadian · 22-05-2018 04:19PM

DOS wrote: »

Christian Churches are inherently pro life.

I'd imagine the Unitarian church would be a lot more pragmatic about it. The CoI bishop of Ossary is voting repeal too.

So, ya know, you're kinda wrong there.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 22-05-2018 04:19PM

bruschi wrote: »

you are entirely unclear and wrong in your thoughts if you think we are voting on abortion up to 12 weeks and that we should lobby the government for something different.

We are voting to repeal the 8th amendment, specifically the note which states that the unborn has equal rights to its mother.

Until this is repealed, then no 12 weeks or any other legislation can go through. So instead of voting no, it should be vote yes and then lobby the government to put forward an alternative legislation.

People can vote whatever way they want, but voting no and then asking them for a different proposal is just utterly idiotic and has no understanding at all of the current situation.

You really are rude and patronising. The Government have clearly stated what they will do if the eighth amendment is removed. So obviously that has to be taken into account, by any intelligent person, when voting on Friday.

robarmstrong · 22-05-2018 04:20PM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Available up to 6 month on "unspecified mental health grounds" = unrestricted abortion up to 6 months.

You know it's not unrestricted, don't you?

I know it might be difficult to understand, but it really isn't "unrestricted abortion up to 6 months".

It would take a very, very serious reason for an abortion to take place after 12 weeks, something that has been mentioned countless times.

Or are you associating issues with mental health to be that women will just simply claim "ah I'm mental" and abort willy nilly? Not very nice opinion to have of women, is it?

January · 22-05-2018 04:20PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You already 'allow' women to have abortions. They happen in England and the rest of Europe though.

Or in their bedrooms and bathrooms terrified to seek medical help in case they're reported to the Gardai.

pitifulgod · 22-05-2018 04:20PM

RobertKK wrote: »

So TV3 using the Journal.ie as a fact checker and the same owners as boards, Boards who currently are advertising Vote Yes with a together for Yes ad....

I just got an ad from ucampaign, they develop the application that the no campaign uses. But reality is that is because of me doing research into them. You searching for outrageous incidents by yes campaign is probably why you're getting ads. :P

Guy:Incognito · 22-05-2018 04:23PM

Stay classy no voters

uptherebels · 22-05-2018 04:23PM

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

You really are rude and patronising. The Government have clearly stated what they will do if the eighth amendment is removed. So obviously that has to be taken into account, by any intelligent person, when voting on Friday.

The government has made a proposal that may or may not become legislation with or without any changes as any intelligent person would know of course

pitifulgod · 22-05-2018 04:23PM

DOS wrote: »

Hypocrisy in the feigned sadness and name dropping at every opportunity.

I believe Leo Varadkar, he of the PR opportunity at any cost, ask Una McMathuna, organised Savita's parents to go public with Yes support the Sunday before the referendum for maximum effect.

Vicky Phelan backed a repeal vote last week...

robarmstrong · 22-05-2018 04:24PM

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

Nobody's denying the hard cases. But that has to be balanced against the many healthy babies that will be aborted if the government bring in their proposed legislation.

By voting No you are essentially denying the hard cases.

You are denying the hard cases access to abortion by voting to retain the 8th Amendment. It really isn't that difficult to grasp.

jjmcclure · 22-05-2018 04:24PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

You know it's not unrestricted, don't you?

I know it might be difficult to understand, but it really isn't "unrestricted abortion up to 6 months".

It would take a very, very serious reason for an abortion to take place after 12 weeks, something that has been mentioned countless times.

Or are you associating issues with mental health to be that women will just simply claim "ah I'm mental" and abort willy nilly? Not very nice opinion to have of women, is it?

In some cases, YES. I believe some will try to use mental health reasons to obtain an abortion. This is not about all women, but some certainly.

Regardless, unrestricted abortion up to 3 months is also unacceptable in my view. I have already made my views clear about FFA and rape/incest.

spookwoman · 22-05-2018 04:24PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

I just got an ad from ucampaign, they develop the application that the no campaign uses. But reality is that is because of me doing research into them. You searching for outrageous incidents by yes campaign is probably why you're getting ads. :P

Ireland's two largest anti-abortion campaigns are facing questions over privacy after a BuzzFeed News analysis found that personal user data gathered by both of their apps can be shared with an international network of conservative and religious groups that includes the US National Rifle Association.
Both uCampaign, which hosts the LoveBoth app, and Jarbik, which hosts My8, are registered to Political Social Media.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/ireland-anti-abortion-campaigns-apps-privacy-nra?utm_term=.rtnJNObWW#.viApnBrbb

Guy:Incognito · 22-05-2018 04:25PM

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

You really are rude and patronising. The Government have clearly stated what they will do if the eighth amendment is removed. So obviously that has to be taken into account, by any intelligent person, when voting on Friday.

The government can't "do" anything. They, like any other party or group of politicians can propose something. The Dail will then debate and vote on it.

robarmstrong · 22-05-2018 04:26PM

jjmcclure wrote: »

In some cases, YES. I believe some will try to use mental health reasons to obtain an abortion. This is not about all women, but some certainly.

Regardless, unrestricted abortion up to 3 months is also unacceptable in my view. I have already made my views clear about FFA and rape/incest.

Right, so you clearly aren't mature enough to associate that some does not equate to all.

It is wrong to deny a majority of women purely on the grounds of your assumptions of some women who will "try to use mental health reasons to obtain an abortion".

I said it to Mr.H earlier and in fairness to him I'm nearly positive he took it on board - you need to take a step back and rationalize that the actions of a very minute few should not take precedent over the many, it is unfair to deny the many due to the actions of the few.

January · 22-05-2018 04:26PM

jjmcclure wrote: »

In some cases, YES. I believe some will try to use mental health reasons to obtain an abortion. This is not about all women, but some certainly.

Regardless, unrestricted abortion up to 3 months is also unacceptable in my view. I have already made my views clear about FFA and rape/incest.

They may try to use it but doesn't mean they'll be granted an abortion on those grounds. They'll have to speak to a psychiatrist and an obstetrician before being granted an abortion and it will have to be a serious risk to their health for them to be allowed one.

The only way to legislate for rape is to have unrestricted access to abortion up to 12 weeks, how do you propose they legislate for rape cases otherwise?

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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